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RE: General Lore Questions - Arashin Kujqai - 08-07-2017
(08-06-2017, 09:13 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: *snip*Oh, that's fair.. I always refer to that as ARR because it doesn't have another title for it other than 1.0.... My bad lol. And yeah, I tried backtracking for the dialogue but I couldn't find it, it must've been those lines I guess.
As for the examples, they help but they still leave some things questionable. Such as voidsent casting "Umbral Fire" for example and where exactly the "depths below" or the "heavens above" are. It also just sounds like based off 1.0 knowledge that everything was just "deemed this title" of umbral or astral rather than the polarities being their own to affect a spell to percentages. As far as I figured, I thought the polarities were based on either the personal reserves of a user determining them to be one way or the other.... OR depending on where you are (based on what/where? I still have no idea) would affect the continuity of your spell.... Such as casting in a hot/dry place would only strengthen the fire aether to be more "active" (kinda like burning dry grass leading to wildfires). Whereas casting perhaps in the cold, it would be less active/astral but more umbral/passive to create a dryness and heat to that of melting snow/ice(not that it would be weaker than the active idea of astrally aligned aether, but the fact it's effect of the spell "Fire I" would change due to the area you're in and it's polarity specific).
Again, those are just my thoughts because it sounds so abstract with the game not properly explaining everything to the point by now. I kinda wish they'd give a segment like they did in the end of ARR(2.0) where they explained the void and etc how aether can leave the world with primals and the like. Until I understand better, I'm just taking a read into your " Manipulating the Polarities Two, Astral versus Umbral" for now to try and grasp it better x.x.
EDIT/TL;DR?: In the end after reading a bit... It just sounds like there's everything to do with manipulating aether both elementally and it's polarities, but not a true definition of where it's based from. Elements are explained fairly well since aether is in everything and is everywhere, so it pretty much exists to manipulate to one's desire.... the polarities though, there's no base or structure that defines it's particulars, just that thaumaturges at the very least can manipulate the polarities of both their own and other. How or what defines the changing in polarities, or rather what are the polarities themselves(not the properties of active vs passive, but the polarities themselves known as astral and umbral)? Who knows :I
RE: General Lore Questions - Unnamed Mercenary - 08-07-2017
(08-07-2017, 03:19 PM)Valic Wrote:(08-06-2017, 09:13 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: *snip*Oh, that's fair.. I always refer to that as ARR because it doesn't have another title for it other than 1.0.... My bad lol.
ARR specifically refers to FFXIV 2.0 [and later]. That's where "A Realm Reborn" literally comes from.
(08-07-2017, 03:19 PM)Valic Wrote: As for the examples, they help but they still leave some things questionable. Such as voidsent casting "Umbral Fire" for example and where exactly the "depths below" or the "heavens above" are.
Voidsent typically cast "Void Fire" in those types of examples. I think you're taking some purple prose a bit too literally.
(08-07-2017, 03:19 PM)Valic Wrote: It also just sounds like based off 1.0 knowledge that everything was just "deemed this title" of umbral or astral rather than the polarities being their own to affect a spell to percentages. As far as I figured, I thought the polarities were based on either the personal reserves of a user determining them to be one way or the other.... OR depending on where you are (based on what/where? I still have no idea) would affect the continuity of your spell....
I think you've gotten mistaken down the line. Whether a spell is astral, umbral, or neither has nothing to do with the source of the aether. They have nothing to do with location either. They're basically charges. Like positive and negative.
(08-07-2017, 03:19 PM)Valic Wrote: Such as casting in a hot/dry place would only strengthen the fire aether to be more "active" (kinda like burning dry grass leading to wildfires). Whereas casting perhaps in the cold, it would be less active/astral but more umbral/passive to create a dryness and heat to that of melting snow/ice(not that it would be weaker than the active idea of astrally aligned aether, but the fact it's effect of the spell "Fire I" would change due to the area you're in and it's polarity specific).
See above comment. The elemental wheel dictates how elements affect each other. Their astral/umbral charge doesn't. Just like with regular temperatures, you can't add hot + hot and get "hotter." Neither could you add cold + cold to get "colder." (Drop a 500 degree material into a 200 degree material. Chemistry and physics dictates nothing will get over 500. In fact, the 500 degree thing will cool off as the 200 destree thing heats up.)
(08-07-2017, 03:19 PM)Valic Wrote: Again, those are just my thoughts because it sounds so abstract with the game not properly explaining everything to the point by now. I kinda wish they'd give a segment like they did in the end of ARR(2.0) where they explained the void and etc how aether can leave the world with primals and the like. Until I understand better, I'm just taking a read into your " Manipulating the Polarities Two, Astral versus Umbral" for now to try and grasp it better x.x.
I think you might've fused a few different things together into a single idea, which is the cause of some of this confusion. There are multiple polarities/charges for a variety of things. Astral and Umbral are simple how we consider spells to be charged. But that's still different from say, Red Magic, where you have to balance White and Black. And both of thought would be different from say, magnetic polarities. Or electrical charges. All of those things have a polarity, but they're not the same. Or dictated by the same means. The Void is just an absence of aether.
RE: General Lore Questions - Sounsyy - 08-07-2017
(08-07-2017, 03:19 PM)Valic Wrote: It just sounds like there's everything to do with manipulating aether both elementally and it's polarities, but not a true definition of where it's based from. How or what defines the changing in polarities, or rather what are the polarities themselves(not the properties of active vs passive, but the polarities themselves known as astral and umbral)?
(08-07-2017, 03:19 PM)Valic Wrote: Again, those are just my thoughts because it sounds so abstract with the game not properly explaining everything to the point by now.
I feel as though I'm failing to understand what it is you're asking for at this point. I'm not even sure what the bolded mean? I'm not sure what you're expecting of the game's lore, beyond a lore book dedicated solely to the intricacies of aether that have very little conscious bearing upon the everyday lives of Eorzeans. These are "scientific" theories of magick that are. One does not need to understand them to live their lives, just as I don't need to know how the atoms within my body interact for me to accept that science and people smarter than me have proven they are there - even if they themselves might not yet fully 100% understand every purpose they serve in the world.
A polarity is defined as "the state of having two opposite or contradictory tendencies, opinions, or aspects." Good vs evil, light vs dark, astral vs umbral, what is above the earth versus what lies beneath it, etc.
Everything is aether.
All aether is made up of six elements of varying strengths, weaknesses, conquers, and submissions.
All elements are polarized between astral and umbral poles or states, activity and passivity, kinetic vs potential.
Some elements are more naturally aspected towards one polarity than the other.
The manipulation of any of these elemental or polar aspects is called magic.
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(08-07-2017, 03:19 PM)Valic Wrote: Where exactly the "depths below" or the "heavens above" are.
It's best not to think of these as literal locations. We're dealing in abstractions of an ancient people's understanding of how the world works. It could be as simple as above the firmament versus the earth below. It could not be that at all. The most simplest understanding of the astral heavens is the the top of the elemental wheel versus the umbral depths being the bottom of the elemental wheel. An abstraction of a polar north versus a polar south as the six elements of the wheel spin 'round and 'round.
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(08-07-2017, 03:19 PM)Valic Wrote: As far as I figured, I thought the polarities were based on either the personal reserves of a user determining them to be one way or the other.... OR depending on where you are (based on what/where? I still have no idea) would affect the continuity of your spell.... Such as casting in a hot/dry place would only strengthen the fire aether to be more "active" (kinda like burning dry grass leading to wildfires). Whereas casting perhaps in the cold, it would be less active/astral but more umbral/passive to create a dryness and heat to that of melting snow/ice(not that it would be weaker than the active idea of astrally aligned aether, but the fact it's effect of the spell "Fire I" would change due to the area you're in and it's polarity specific).
Polarities are not based on personal reserves. All aether is made up of all elements. All elements are constantly flowing and ebbing, reacting one another as submissions or conquers, being polarized into activity or reservation.
The elemental aspect of an area or environment can affect the tendencies of those living within it, as seen in many flora and fauna, such as scalekin who've adapted to heavy earth aspect by lithifying their flesh. But it is not the defining aspect of one's aether. Nor would it necessarily affect the aether drawn to cast a spell, though in some cases it may aid that cause depending mainly upon the art in which you're manipulating aether, as all elements exist in all aether just in varying strength of aspects.
A summoner seeks to recreate the extreme aspects of the primal they wish to tame in order to first perform the summoning rite and draw forth an egi. The summoner quest specifically cites the caster as having to actively attune to that aetherial aspect.
Y'mhitra Wrote:According to the records we recovered, the summoners of old would perform these rites in a land in which the naturally dominant element matched the aspect of the avatar they wished to call forth. Only in such a place might one sufficiently shift one's aetheric balance in the desired direction. Now you must focus. Visualize the aether flowing through you, a vibrant current of energy transforming into living fire. Hold this image in your mind, and the raging heat of your life force shall spawn an egi wreathed in flames!
However, as Thaumaturges, Arcanists, and Red Mages use only their own internal aetherial reserves or mana - the external aspect of their environment, no matter how it may be polarized, is of little consequence. They seek only to manipulate the as-yet neutrally aspected aether within their body into the desired spell, focusing that aether into the desired aspect, polarity, or spell.
Versus a Conjurer, White Mage, or Black Mage which borrows aether from their environment. While an extreme, environmental aspect might affect the ease in which certain aether is drawn in quantity enough to fuel spells - in the end, even these spellcasters manipulate that drawn aether into the desired affect through incantation or meditation. Which is why a conjurer can still cast water-aspected magicks in the desert.
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(08-07-2017, 03:19 PM)Valic Wrote: As for the examples, they help but they still leave some things questionable. Such as voidsent casting "Umbral Fire" for example
Perhaps this is also adding to the confusion? I've noticed several instances so far where you've seen the term "Void" and replaced it with "Umbral" and are combining this into your understanding of the polarities. There are no spells in game called "Umbral Fire," the voidsent you're citing use "Void Fire" or "Void Aero."
Void ≠Umbral. These two terms are not interchangeable.
The Void is a realm starved of aether. It eats away at any aether which seeps its way inside and thus is lost from the Lifestream.
Sometimes in areas hit hardest by the Calamity, a dark mist charged with Umbral-aspected aether, known by skywatchers as "Gloom", will appear. There are some who believe this "gloom" is spewed forth from the void. But the veracity of this theory is unknown and highly suspect. (Gloom existed prior to the Calamity, though it was less frequently documented publicly.) Especially given that the void was only proved to exist in very recent history. Beforehand, most people believed the Void to be the source of any occurrence they could not explain.
Any connection between the two terms pretty much ends there though.
_ _ _ _ _
I'm sorry but I really don't know how else to explain this topic. All lore on the elements and the polarities has been provided, as well as all lore regarding the elemental wheel, illustrations for how the elements and polarities affect spells, and I think I've spent too much time on this topic. You're of course more than welcome to continue to search for more satisfactory answers, but I feel as though I have nothing more I can contribute to this.
RE: General Lore Questions - Arashin Kujqai - 08-07-2017
Alright, again, a misunderstanding of how I remember a spell name. Regardless my question still isn't quite answered, everything else has been expect the main concept which is essentially what dictates astral/umbral. I get they're polarities, I get they're aether, I get they're not specific types of aether, but what I don't get is what exactly claims them as one or the other.
You can easily claim the land, the sea, the wind, the thunder, the heat is all corresponding aether to the element it would be(earth, water, wind, thunder, fire) and understand easily that people manipulate these elements into spells. Astral/umbral though?... what causes these "charges" who claims/says what they are or aren't or when they apply or not. Can anyone just dictate their spell to be more astrally charged cuz screw it? Same with umbral? That's my question. I'm sorry if I'm annoying either of you, I just don't understand(this game has a tendency to not be direct/specific.
(08-07-2017, 03:38 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: I think you've gotten mistaken down the line. Whether a spell is astral, umbral, or neither has nothing to do with the source of the aether. They have nothing to do with location either. They're basically charges. Like positive and negative.
I get that... so what tells if they're positive/negative then or how far in between? do we just manipulate that just because? Or is there something that determines this?
(08-07-2017, 08:06 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: "as all elements exist in all aether just in varying strength of aspects."
"They seek only to manipulate the as-yet neutrally aspected aether within their body into the desired spell, focusing that aether into the desired aspect, polarity, or spell. "
I understand my confusion in the mixup with void =/= umbral, that's actually why I'm trying to ask/clarify here so I can adjust an entry of mine. I say it doesn't do that great of a job explaining because there's a lot of mixup of information from 1.0 and 2.0 + the fact that the game doesn't explicitly explain much in a single area without distributing it across the whole game into puzzling mystic babble.
As for the 2 quotes, the elemental one makes sense, the latter implies anyone can manipulate any spell to any polarity, is that true? Is it not based on anything? Considering the elements exist everywhere and potentially some more than others in regions, the polarities just don't apply that same type of physics? They're just a thing you can change and that's that? There's no determining factor in what makes this or how someone figures out how to charge a spell one way or the other? It just "happens"? I'm not sure I'm being clear at this point :/
(08-07-2017, 08:06 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: "All elements are constantly flowing and ebbing, reacting one another as submissions or conquers, being polarized into activity or reservation. "
All elements are polarized between astral and umbral poles or states, activity and passivity, kinetic vs potential.
Some elements are more naturally aspected towards one polarity than the other.
^^^^^^^^ HOW @ the bold. Based off what, from what, why, again idk how to be clearer here.. unless the answer is "they just do" or "aether is between one way or the other just cuz". Then I'm just stumped. If so then... Does that just mean anyone that consorts with aether can just change it's polarity upon will cuz whatever? Or is it just naturally polarized "just cuz" and we just use whatever aether get in our desired spells and the aether used stays it's polarities as it was given "just cuz".
RE: General Lore Questions - Virella - 08-07-2017
Are you asking people how magic works? Because I'm pretty sure magic is still fantasy and not something people can explain beyond what they did. I think Sounsyy and Franz provided all the lore we got on it, and this is what you have to make do with.
It's a fantasy setting, you're not going to get all the answer you seek because simply at one point people can't explain it any more ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
RE: General Lore Questions - Arashin Kujqai - 08-07-2017
(08-07-2017, 09:15 PM)Virella Wrote: Are you asking people how magic works? Because I'm pretty sure magic is still fantasy and not something people can explain beyond what they did. I think Sounsyy and Franz provided all the lore we got on it, and this is what you have to make do with.No, not at all. I think I can manage to get we make spells using forces that don't exist IRL. Just as Dragonball Z has "Ki energy" they gather to shoot blasts. I'm more-so just trying to understand the finer fundamentals of it is all. Most of it makes sens,e you make a fire spell, you use fire aether... Cool. The fire aether is more polarized one way over another or you made the spell that way....... what determined the polarization? That's the only bit here that doesn't have a reason behind it despite everything I've read. I mean again, if it's a "just cuz" thing and there's no base for it... I can make do with that I guess, just doesn't sound like that is the case considering even the fundamentals of making a spell have an element or not makes more sense because there's a cause and effect to it.
It's a fantasy setting, you're not going to get all the answer you seek because simply at one point people can't explain it any more ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Fire spell | cause - mage gathering aether and fire aether around to manipulate into the spell, effect - you create a fireball to hurl at something using the elements around and the powers enabled to you to manipulate aether in the first place.
Astral/Umbral alignment of aether | cause - ????????????...... effect - it determines to a degree how aether/spells act actively/passively.
The question marks are what I'm attempting to fill in here lol. Unless it's just one of those un-explainable concepts that just exist without any base to it. If so, then I guess I can't find the answer, but I feel like given it exists, it would have a concept behind it to better detail/understand what it means.
RE: General Lore Questions - Tiergan - 08-07-2017
People have given you the full extent of the lore as we know it now complete with diagrams and in-depth explanations.
Anything further honestly just looks like you're trying take your own fabrications of how magic might work in Eorzea and jam them in between the cracks in hope it'll all cement together the way you would like them to. And while that's totally fine if you want to do that and RP it with other people who would find it interesting and worthwhile - it also rapidly stops having a place in a thread devoted to lore.
RE: General Lore Questions - L'ohba Tia - 08-07-2017
(08-07-2017, 09:21 PM)Valic Wrote:(08-07-2017, 09:15 PM)Virella Wrote: Are you asking people how magic works? Because I'm pretty sure magic is still fantasy and not something people can explain beyond what they did. I think Sounsyy and Franz provided all the lore we got on it, and this is what you have to make do with.No, not at all. I think I can manage to get we make spells using forces that don't exist IRL. Just as Dragonball Z has "Ki energy" they gather to shoot blasts. I'm more-so just trying to understand the finer fundamentals of it is all. Most of it makes sens,e you make a fire spell, you use fire aether... Cool. The fire aether is more polarized one way over another or you made the spell that way....... what determined the polarization? That's the only bit here that doesn't have a reason behind it despite everything I've read. I mean again, if it's a "just cuz" thing and there's no base for it... I can make do with that I guess, just doesn't sound like that is the case considering even the fundamentals of making a spell have an element or not makes more sense because there's a cause and effect to it.
It's a fantasy setting, you're not going to get all the answer you seek because simply at one point people can't explain it any more ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
Fire spell | cause - mage gathering aether and fire aether around to manipulate into the spell, effect - you create a fireball to hurl at something using the elements around and the powers enabled to you to manipulate aether in the first place.
Astral/Umbral alignment of aether | cause - ????????????...... effect - it determines to a degree how aether/spells act actively/passively.
The question marks are what I'm attempting to fill in here lol. Unless it's just one of those un-explainable concepts that just exist without any base to it. If so, then I guess I can't find the answer, but I feel like given it exists, it would have a concept behind it to better detail/understand what it means.
The simple answer is that a mage can manipulate polarities. This is the very foundation of Thaumaturgy. As for what determines polarity in a natural case, outside of magic? It just is. Dry air is just umbral, chilly air is just umbral.
RE: General Lore Questions - Arashin Kujqai - 08-07-2017
(08-07-2017, 10:07 PM)Tiergan Wrote: People have given you the full extent of the lore as we know it now complete with diagrams and in-depth explanations.This is false as I've accepted my mistakes in misinterpretations and misreadings. I've asked what I've desired since the start and do not see a defined answer for it. Please don't attempt to direct this into another direction, I'm already struggling internally trying to ask in the first place about something I asked 3 pages ago.
Anything further honestly just looks like you're trying take your own fabrications of how magic might work in Eorzea and jam them in between the cracks in hope it'll all cement together the way you would like them to. Â And while that's totally fine if you want to do that and RP it with other people who would find it interesting and worthwhile - it also rapidly stops having a place in a thread devoted to lore.
(08-07-2017, 10:29 PM)L Wrote: The simple answer is that a mage can manipulate polarities. This is the very foundation of Thaumaturgy. As for what determines polarity in a natural case, outside of magic? It just is. Dry air is just umbral, chilly air is just umbral.
That's all I ever wanted to know, thank you lol.
EDIT: I just asked my friend a couple of the same questions and he gave me some information that clarified a lot for me...
To quote him, "Thanalan is hot and arid because there is a large amount of umbral fire aether there Aether drives the environment, not the other way around"
That helps clarify a bit in terms of what I was thinking about when I asked about why thanalan would have more umbrally aligned fire in it so to speak. I always thought the world was the other way around, makes a lot more sense now.
Then this...
"Yeah. There is a natural dispersal of aether in the world just like how there is a dispersal of minerals in the real world. Some places have gold, some have iron, some have thorium because that's how it worked out after all the immensely complex natural systems worked out
Aether is the same. Some place have more of one than another because that's how it has distributed over time. Major events can change that distribution (like climate change.)
Climate is based on aether."
So in actuality... This applies to elements and polarization alone, it all exists and formed the world rather than the world existing of it. So elemental aether is naturally about and polarized just so naturally "just because" rather than aether being there for a certain reason due to the enviornment and explicit other changes(calamities, hydaelyn, etc)... I've had it reserved this whole string of posts.
RE: General Lore Questions - Yian Kutku - 08-08-2017
(08-07-2017, 06:23 AM)Gegenji Wrote: I may be mis-remembering, but is the small village-y place near there also part of that Castellum? If so...
(08-07-2017, 08:47 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Castrum Oriens = oriens (orior) latin for east, eastern castle
I've always found it a little weird that the Castrums named for directions in Eorzea (ie other than Castrums Abania, Marinum, and Solus) were based on Eorzean directions. From the viewpoint of Garlemald up until the Seventh Umbral Era, Castrum Oriens was the second-most western castrum they had, after Castrum Novum. I suppose they considered it "east of Castrum Novum"?
The rest of your post is pretty valid, and makes plausible sense. I'm curious why nobody even mentions van Darnus's involvement in Castellum Corvi, considering Nael's notoriety among Eorzeans.
(08-07-2017, 08:06 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Everything is aether.
All aether is made up of six elements of varying strengths, weaknesses, conquers, and submissions.
All elements are polarized between astral and umbral poles or states, activity and passivity, kinetic vs potential.
Some elements are more naturally aspected towards one polarity than the other.
The manipulation of any of these elemental or polar aspects is called magic.
Minor question: for unaspected aether (or spells), would they be aspected towards all elements, or no elements? (Arcanist and Astrologian spells come to mind.)
RE: General Lore Questions - Arashin Kujqai - 08-08-2017
(08-08-2017, 03:02 AM)Yian Kutku Wrote: Minor question: for unaspected aether (or spells), would they be aspected towards all elements, or no elements? (Arcanist and Astrologian spells come to mind.)
It would be none at all since it would have no aspect. Spells can be polarized without an element or balanced between the polarities with an element(and pretty much anywhere in between).
Arcanist would be based on the concept of mostly unaspected aether (hence why their spells are all detrimental effects that take time rather than heavy bursts of fire and etc, they're essentially just manipulating aether in it's more raw form than applying elements to it). I can't truly answer Astrologian since that's WAY beyond my territory of understand, but aspected aether taking on multiple elements doesn't seem to be too new an idea either. I also always figured that was why basic arcanist skills are more clear/blank looking, as they're not attributed to any element but do still have the polarities of aether they manipulate(I also just revised that graph I wrote in my journal entry if you want a peek at that in Town Square as a better example, as it's why I asked my question originally).
RE: General Lore Questions - Valence - 08-08-2017
On Aether polarization: I think the answer you are looking for is simply that the current lore lacks a clear exploration and clarification of where does astral and umbral comes from. Maybe the MSQ or some quests might explore it further at some point? I personally suspect it has something to do with said aether proximity with stars and constellations while umbral is the opposite, the difference here is that light and dark aren't an element like in some other FF titles. Which means you can get light fire or dark fire. I want to insist that it's not lore but my own suspicion through various hints ingame or the way it's often worded.
Other people have said above that aether polarities are similar to electricity, but I feel like a better analogy would actually be heat. For one electricity's polarity is binary (or at least discontinuous) and here we have a very organic scale of infinite degrees between pure Umbral and pure Astral. Secondly, heat tends to agitate atoms while lack of heat makes them still. I feel like it's better suited as an analogy to aether: umbral aether is very still and lingering while astral is rather active and swirling. This is also why some elements are more attuned naturally to one or the other polarity: fire, wind and ligthning are restless, elements full of life, while ice, earth and water are often the opposite. The former will burn or sweep everything they touch while the latter will probably more seep, sap, and slowly gnaw at things. So. Heat? The closer to stars (cf, astral), the "hotter", the more stirred it will be. All this in very rough layman's terms of course. It also doesn't mean closer in distance. Just more magically exposed to either stars, or at the contrary, exposed to the umbral depths (light vs dark).
Edit: you might ask, how does the Coco brothers THM school of magic fits into this? Well, I'm pretty positive that you would probably be able to invert the method and use astral ice and umbral fire and whatnot, though that sounds very clunky and counter intuitive to use, requiring a lot more effort probably considering those elements' affinities. Hell, maybe you can even use other elements instead, like astral wind and umbral earth and whatnot? In any case, the umbral aspect in that specific school of magic seems to increase tenfolds the personal aether regen while the astral one sacrifices it in favor of an increase magic potency.
On Eorzean Castra: I'm sure they named them from cardinal directions probably because they all were born in the same jurisdiction/region, so one becomes the castrum of the south of the Eorzea region, and so on.
RE: General Lore Questions - Arashin Kujqai - 08-08-2017
(08-08-2017, 05:32 AM)Valence Wrote: On Aether polarization: I think the answer you are looking for is simply that the current lore lacks a clear exploration and clarification of where does astral and umbral comes from. Maybe the MSQ or some quests might explore it further at some point? I personally suspect it has something to do with said aether proximity with stars and constellations while umbral is the opposite, the difference here is that light and dark aren't an element like in some other FF titles. Which means you can get light fire or dark fire. I want to insist that it's not lore but my own suspicion through various hints ingame or the way it's often worded.Precisely ^, I feel it wouldn't have been as much conflict if it was just said earlier, but that's fine. You're absolutely accurate in the ideas of how it all comes together though, makes the most sense to me and applies reasonable logic to both the mystic babble as well as the actual logically stated facts of how the polarities work.
Other people have said above that aether polarities are similar to electricity, but I feel like a better analogy would actually be heat. For one electricity's polarity is binary (or at least discontinuous) and here we have a very organic scale of infinite degrees between pure Umbral and pure Astral. Secondly, heat tends to agitate atoms while lack of heat makes them still. I feel like it's better suited as an analogy to aether: umbral aether is very still and lingering while astral is rather active and swirling. This is also why some elements are more attuned naturally to one or the other polarity: fire, wind and ligthning are restless, elements full of life, while ice, earth and water are often the opposite. The former will burn or sweep everything they touch while the latter will probably more seep, sap, and slowly gnaw at things. So. Heat? The closer to stars (cf, astral), the "hotter", the more stirred it will be. All this in very rough layman's terms of course. It also doesn't mean closer in distance. Just more magically exposed to either stars, or at the contrary, exposed to the umbral depths (light vs dark).
Edit: you might ask, how does the Coco brothers THM school of magic fits into this? Well, I'm pretty positive that you would probably be able to invert the method and use astral ice and umbral fire and whatnot, though that sounds very clunky and counter intuitive to use, requiring a lot more effort probably considering those elements' affinities. Hell, maybe you can even use other elements instead, like astral wind and umbral earth and whatnot? In any case, the umbral aspect in that specific school of magic seems to increase tenfolds the personal aether regen while the astral one sacrifices it in favor of an increase magic potency.
Specifically your analogy toward heat representing them, as that's exactly how my lore savvy friend described them as well. As for the thaumaturge mention at the end, we actually recently had that talk as well. Discussing if they were somehow in an area much more aligned umbrally that they would be more like to use the reverse of what they use now. Though again like you said, it would be clunky and counter intuitive to be using what forces would be considered less devastating as a main offense and vice versa. It can be done but it's just not simply because of logic.
The best relative concept about your heat analogy is that the idea of umbral passiveness is the result of entropy. Entropy being the result of something that happens that can never be undone or redone the same way. To quote my friend again...
"Also, entropy vs order. All order falls to entropy, it never goes the other direction
Umbral is a state of entropy, it pulls in energy from the more active/ordered astral state"
So heat that comes off a flame would be a good concept of what the polarity would be defined as. Since without the flame, where would the heat come from?
As for the mention about the stars... I like the concept but it's like you said, we don't have quite enough information to support it just yet it seems. It seems to be the most logical and mesh with all the information but I'm just being a skeptic at this point. In any case, thank you @ everyone who gave me information and helped, while I don't sound like it, I really do appreciate it. I just get aggravated with lack of information to further concrete the understanding of an idea(but leaving it just open enough makes it enjoyable for RP purpose so, I guess I shouldn't complain).
RE: General Lore Questions - Valence - 08-08-2017
(08-08-2017, 06:10 AM)Valic Wrote: Specifically your analogy toward heat representing them, as that's exactly how my lore savvy friend described them as well. As for the thaumaturge mention at the end, we actually recently had that talk as well. Discussing if they were somehow in an area much more aligned umbrally that they would be more like to use the reverse of what they use now. Though again like you said, it would be clunky and counter intuitive to be using what forces would be considered less devastating as a main offense and vice versa. It can be done but it's just not simply because of logic.
Well it's not that astral ice is by necessity less potent than astral fire, I meant more like, since it's harder to find astral ice and easier to come by astral fire, it probably requires less resources or something to build up...? But then again, as I said above, it's pure speculation on my part. It just seems to make sense to explain why it's Astral Fire and Umbral Ice and not the other way.
It could be that it's actually as easy to generate astral ice than umbral ice, or whatever. I would advise not to put too much weight behind those hypothesises. I generally don't like hypothesises and I rarely give in to them, especially since it's by definition out of the lore.
RE: General Lore Questions - Arashin Kujqai - 08-08-2017
(08-08-2017, 12:11 PM)Valence Wrote:I mean it's a little of both really. Astral ice would probably be nice but sending out shards of freezing ice probably isn't as powerful as shooting fireballs of burning aether. Thinking about it literally, throwing an ice cube at someone vs throwing a gasoline covered torch, one's obviously more effective than the other. Ideally I imagine they could go either way with the polarities in thaumaturgy but they chose to make fire their damage dealer since it's more naturally astral and powerful to use considering what fire is in itself. While the ice could probably be just as useful astrally, it's like shown, more umbral in nature and would be better suited to cool off their aether.(08-08-2017, 06:10 AM)Valic Wrote: Specifically your analogy toward heat representing them, as that's exactly how my lore savvy friend described them as well. As for the thaumaturge mention at the end, we actually recently had that talk as well. Discussing if they were somehow in an area much more aligned umbrally that they would be more like to use the reverse of what they use now. Though again like you said, it would be clunky and counter intuitive to be using what forces would be considered less devastating as a main offense and vice versa. It can be done but it's just not simply because of logic.
Well it's not that astral ice is by necessity less potent than astral fire, I meant more like, since it's harder to find astral ice and easier to come by astral fire, it probably requires less resources or something to build up...? But then again, as I said above, it's pure speculation on my part. It just seems to make sense to explain why it's Astral Fire and Umbral Ice and not the other way.
It could be that it's actually as easy to generate astral ice than umbral ice, or whatever. I would advise not to put too much weight behind those hypothesises. I generally don't like hypothesises and I rarely give in to them, especially since it's by definition out of the lore.
As far as I understood, thaumaturgy relied on the concept of umbral ice to both cool their own reserves down(to prevent burning out their mana supply or just out right turning all of their aether into fire and incinerating themselves just like black mages can do without the stone) and to cause a sort of vacuum effect of natural aether to replenish themselves. They exhaust the power of fire with an astral polarity then when exhausted, swap to umbral to create a sort of magnet or vacuum of aether for astral aether to flow and be manipulated. Since aether always flows naturally to where there is none, having this opposed polarity with little mana in your body functions like a magnet being cut in half. It simply wants to exist to counter the opposite polarity that you induce on youself, (hence the status of umbral ice and vice versa). Considering umbrally polarized aether in nature is slow and progressive than active, it would take a while for you to absorb umbral polarized aether while in an astral state of mind.
Simply put, your aether is on fire, it won't want to bring in cold ice aether that easily, even with the polarization being opposite. Change your mind to a state if umbral ice though, that ice aether will feel naturally inclined to cool your aether and the opposite polarity will attract it to do so and fill more easily since astral aether will be actively wanting to flow and replenish reserves. Umbral aether will be more passive/slow and won't quite do that on it's own, so thaumaturges just abuse these polarities to cool down and also repelnish. Why fire astral and ice umbral? Like I said, fire hurts more typically.... Ice can but you need something to cool yourself from all that fire and an opposing polarity to replenish those reserves to chuck more of that fire. Could you reverse this?... Prolly, and I'm probably repeating myself here, but natural alignment probably makes it easier to manipulate certain elements and their polarities when you don't have to completely rework them (ice naturally more umbral? Why go through the trouble of polarizing it to be astral then, work with what you got!).
Logic just dictates to gather what's more handy/accessible and make the most viable use out of what you have. We have these types of aether naturally around as they are, less strain to manipulate them to be different than as they are, so I'll use this element to deal devastating blows and this to cool off, and I won't require to deal with so much just for arbitrary decision of wanting to fling ice at something instead of fire. That's the logic I see it as anyways, which makes the most sense considering how the concept of thaumaturgy originated to begin with(fire to burn corpses, cold... Not ice specifically... but "cold" to keep the body from corrupting). They're just using what they have readily as resources in the most viable solution using the basic concepts they began with into making it a modern form of magic for combat.