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+--- Thread: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: (/showthread.php?tid=11056)
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Khadan - 04-13-2015
Well all unwarranted judgmental attitudes aside, the thread has veered into the oncoming lane of off-topic.
As per the OP, I'm glad to see some 'validation' from SE on Dragoon. I mean I personally always figured that the aerial strikes were precise, lightning fast, and above all: as lethal as it is effective. The major proof in the pudding for me is the sequence of derplander on the bridge as the dogdragon gets its first hit which moving so fast that you can't see anything but a streak of light that parts clouds like a sonic boom, literally almost doubles it backwards with the force of the blow. The subsequent strikes, each accompanied by a brilliant flash of light and a resounding impact, force the massive beast to falter and die, it's organs pierced and ruptured, its bones shattered in several places.
This ain't no joke, kids. Dragoons are serious business because the threat they face is equally serious. I've had many a discussion in the past where, admittedly, most of my points are conjecture and based off other cultures or similar circumstances but the premise is generally that if you are a nation of warriors, with a warrior god, and constantly at war then you're not going to be breeding pansies. Most Ishgardians are probably like Spartans at this point. Even their nobility are likely competent if not skillful fighters. Their children likely begin training as soon as they're old enough to hold a spear and so on and so forth. (Which ties into the age judgements in RP as it pertains to Ishgardians, at least).Â
Regardless, I'm stoked for Heavensward. It's nothing but huge massive boosts for my character's development and story which has always been a struggle since the launch of 2.0 as an Ishgardian in exile in a land of people who don't share his values, his beliefs, or his outlook on life. Having the chance to return home has been great and there will be many more great things to come I'm betting. =)
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - KitKat - 04-14-2015
This thread serves to reinforce my opinion that this RP community isn't actually a community at all. It's a smattering of cliques where each one turns their noses up at the next.
On topic, I'm in love with the way dragoons were shown in the movie clip. Makes me regret not making Kat one.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - McBeefâ„¢ - 04-14-2015
Every class/job is a stupid mary sue and you're a horrible RPer if you play them.
If you don't play an arthritic farmer in his 50s who was never good at anything then step the fuck off.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - McBeefâ„¢ - 04-14-2015
"Heh... you're good? At concept your character is based around?"
"And you play someone young? In a game where the majority of the important NPCs are in their teens and early twenties, and the character creation system mainly generates young, wrinkle free people?"
"Mary sue much? You loser."
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Merri - 04-14-2015
Please keep the thread on track. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but if people can't keep their tones in check I'll have to lock this thread down. Let's play nice~
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Xenedra - 04-14-2015
It's been said, but I'm going re-state and agree with the idea that it's probably best to judge person by person and depending on their background.
I've also seen it stated that someone can't become a competent lancer/drg in 5 years. Obviously there are no dragon slaying, mile high jumping dragoons in reality, but there are people that pick up a weapon and in 5 years are competent enough to be called a master, if only a lower tiered one. There are also people who do this at a pretty young age, even now-a-days. I don't think it's beyond reason for a person younger than 24 to claim mastery of dragoon-ing.
There are obvious exceptions, including, but certainly not limited to, the possibility that the ranks of the dragoons don't accept people that young or the character themselves is not originally from Ishgard or has some tie there-in. I personally think the biggest thing that ought to limit whether a character can claim to be a master level dragoon is whether they would have had the opportunity to be exposed to the art, rather than something like age.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Nebbs - 04-14-2015
Lore aside my view us that the main criteria for RPing some powerful type is can you actually pull it off in your RP. So often people equate gear and lables as proof, where as it is your ability to be believable IC.
This was never moreso an issue than in SWTOR where so called Jebi Masters lacked the ability to play a convincing master. End result is other players don't accept you.Â
Play what you want but if you want others to accept your IC assertion make it belivable.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Yssen - 04-14-2015
Age is not a huge factor. People from the RL historical eras and societies the setting draws from as a base went to war as young as 13 or 14. There are teenage Dragoon recruits in some of the Ishgard quests we have already.Â
Further, it does not take that long to get good with a spear. That is the entire point of the weapon. Put it in the hand of an untrained farmer, and after some drilling you have a fairly competent soldier. I think people would honestly be surprised at how short the training period to be very good with a weapon would be. Mastery is simply a matter of constant and dedicated practice, with some practical experience thrown in for good measure.Â
To be honest, what I am seeing here is a completely different and repeated problem. This is not the place to discuss it, though. We'll try doing that somewhere else.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Knight Kat - 04-14-2015
So, I actually decided to do some research. I saw it mentioned a few times that something like 5 to 8 years of training would not be enough. Well, I felt those were totally arbitrary numbers, so I decided to put them to the test.
The problem is, we don't really know what gives Dragoons their power. Aether, yes, but what gives them the aether and power to do all that? Is it the soul stone? Is it training? If so, all this guess-work, when some are talking about things like choosing not to RP with people, seems wrong without some sort of evidence. If the game lore offers no evidence then I say base the judgement on IRL examples. Since we know Dragoons are knights of a sort, let's start there!
In the medieval ages, training in the way of the knight started at age 6 to 8. The boys were called Pages. They were trained in the culture and education needed to be a knight. At about age 13, they started training as Squires. Squires worked with knights, trained for combat and learned horsemanship. At age 16 to 20, the squire training was complete, and the young man would become a Knight.
How many years would he need to be a skilled fighter? I'd argue that after that training, he would be thrust onto the battlefield, and trusted with the defense of his nation and/or lord. He had better know how to fight like a Knight, or he would be pretty ineffective to even use.
Yes, experience is a factor, but at age 20 they were KNIGHTS, not Soon-to-be-knights-who-need-to-age-a-bit-first. They would be capable of anything required of them within their role.
http://www.knight-medieval.com/knight-castle-medieval-articles/how-a-boy-became-a-knight-in-medieval-times.htm
http://www.knightsandarmor.com/life.htm
But Dragoons in FFXIV are so much more than knights, right? Okay, lets tack Special Forces training onto the Knight training.
One of the most elite groups in the United States military are Navy SEALs. They are subjected to brutal training with very high standards, and must learn a multitude of skills. The whole of their training is less than four years. Mostly just over three years.
Even if you tack that onto Knight training, the 20-year-old knight would be age 23 to 24 by the time he finished the special forces training on the level of intensity of the Navy SEALs.
http://www.wikihow.com/Become-a-Navy-SEAL
If after Knight and special forces training, the Dragoons weren't capable of doing the feats that their job required of them, Ishgard would be screwed.
Again, experience is indeed a factor in skill. However, they don't train these Dragoons to fight, send them to do battle until they're age 30, and hope they will learn the acrobatic jumping feats required of them. That would be impractical. It only makes sense for them to learn how to Dragoon -in- Dragoon training.
But wait, would a Knight-like training combined with special forces training be truly what Dragoon training is like? Maybe they are trained more like fighter pilots?
Well, that is roughly 3 and a half years. Tack that onto Knight training and we have a Dragoon at age 23 to 24 -if- he completed Knight training at age 20.
http://work.chron.com/path-becoming-fighter-pilot-18008.html
However, do we truly know? The game lore doesn't specify. The power to acrobatically maneuver through the air then rocket at Dragons is crazy, and it looks complicated, but is it really more complicated than everything a Navy SEAL or Fighter Pilot has to learn? I doubt it. Power does not equal complication.
I could easily believe a Dragoon knows how to Dragoon at age 21 to 24 (Knight by age 17 to 20 +4 years of special intense training). Experience from then on would refine their skills, and reduce their likelihood for errors, but that is the only factor it plays.
I think people are getting too fixated on age. It's only ONE factor, and it doesn't matter much really without the TRAINING.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Yssen - 04-14-2015
I can see your logic with the knight training thing, Khit. I really depends on whether or not Dragoons are required to train as knights before training as Dragoons. Since there seem to be some very distinct divisions as far as the Ishgardian military goes I tend to think they are not. We know from old 1.0 lore that they have a standing army that was second only to Ala Mhigo's, which is further divided into more specialized units, Temple Knights and Dragoons. We also have to throw in the knights that are attached to the various noble houses. I tend to think that while the Dragoons are specialized, they are snatched up after basic military training in the standing army, which would probably not take that long. They take potential Dragoons from the best performers in Basic taining, and train them specifically to be Dragoons. Those not selected, or who wash out of the Dragoon training move on to become knights for their houses, or the Temple Knights.Â
I mostly get this impression from the fact that we see teenager Dragoon recruits and that they it is specifically mentioned they are Dragoon recruits. It points toward branched training beyond the basic. While knights of old did have a long period of training, they were not just learning the arts of warfare. Administration of lands, how to behave at court, the specifics of how their place under their Lord/specific knightly order, law, and other specialized training was part of the package. Knights were a professional soldier class. Dragoons seem to be the same thing, just more specific to Ishgard's needs in the Dragonsong War. Where I am coming from is that Knight and Dragoon are effectively equivalent, just with different tasks.
But as you say, we do not know for certain yet. Yar. ^ ^
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Warren Castille - 04-14-2015
The OP points out that all of the dragoons in the trailer are super great at being dragoons. The thread was established to posit that everyone playing spearsnipers are now canonical. The question was raised in this thread about how much training that would actually take - when you're making a video to show off your special forces, you don't show boot camp, you show Seal Team Six.
I'm fairly certain that theorizing the difference between a new recruit and a hardened veteran is in line with the thread. Don't get all fixated on a number I pulled out of my ass.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Val - 04-14-2015
(04-14-2015, 05:26 AM)Knight Kat Wrote: So, I actually decided to do some research. I saw it mentioned a few times that something like 5 to 8 years of training would not be enough. Well, I felt those were totally arbitrary numbers, so I decided to put them to the test.
The problem is, we don't really know what gives Dragoons their power. Aether, yes, but what gives them the aether and power to do all that? Is it the soul stone? Is it training? If so, all this guess-work, when some are talking about things like choosing not to RP with people, seems wrong without some sort of evidence. If the game lore offers no evidence then I say base the judgement on IRL examples. Since we know Dragoons are knights of a sort, let's start there!
In the medieval ages, training in the way of the knight started at age 6 to 8. The boys were called Pages. They were trained in the culture and education needed to be a knight. At about age 13, they started training as Squires. Squires worked with knights, trained for combat and learned horsemanship. At age 16 to 20, the squire training was complete, and the young man would become a Knight.
How many years would he need to be a skilled fighter? I'd argue that after that training, he would be thrust onto the battlefield, and trusted with the defense of his nation and/or lord. He had better know how to fight like a Knight, or he would be pretty ineffective to even use.
Yes, experience is a factor, but at age 20 they were KNIGHTS, not Soon-to-be-knights-who-need-to-age-a-bit-first. They would be capable of anything required of them within their role.
http://www.knight-medieval.com/knight-castle-medieval-articles/how-a-boy-became-a-knight-in-medieval-times.htm
http://www.knightsandarmor.com/life.htm
But Dragoons in FFXIV are so much more than knights, right? Okay, lets tack Special Forces training onto the Knight training.
One of the most elite groups in the United States military are Navy SEALs. They are subjected to brutal training with very high standards, and must learn a multitude of skills. The whole of their training is less than four years. Mostly just over three years.
Even if you tack that onto Knight training, the 20-year-old knight would be age 23 to 24 by the time he finished the special forces training on the level of intensity of the Navy SEALs.
http://www.wikihow.com/Become-a-Navy-SEAL
If after Knight and special forces training, the Dragoons weren't capable of doing the feats that their job required of them, Ishgard would be screwed.
Again, experience is indeed a factor in skill. However, they don't train these Dragoons to fight, send them to do battle until they're age 30, and hope they will learn the acrobatic jumping feats required of them. That would be impractical. It only makes sense for them to learn how to Dragoon -in- Dragoon training. Â
But wait, would a Knight-like training combined with special forces training be truly what Dragoon training is like? Maybe they are trained more like fighter pilots?
Well, that is roughly 3 and a half years. Tack that onto Knight training and we have a Dragoon at age 23 to 24 -if- he completed Knight training at age 20.
http://work.chron.com/path-becoming-fighter-pilot-18008.html
However, do we truly know? The game lore doesn't specify. The power to acrobatically maneuver through the air then rocket at Dragons is crazy, and it looks complicated, but is it really more complicated than everything a Navy SEAL or Fighter Pilot has to learn? I doubt it. Power does not equal complication.
I could easily believe a Dragoon knows how to Dragoon at age 21 to 24 (Knight by age 17 to 20 +4 years of special intense training). Experience from then on would refine their skills, and reduce their likelihood for errors, but that is the only factor it plays.
I think people are getting too fixated on age. It's only ONE factor, and it doesn't matter much really without the TRAINING.
I agree with a lot of this, actually. If a character has been doing nothing but training all their life in that respect, then yes, it is entirely possible. But a lot of characters don't, and a lot only begin later on. You do raise very good points, only we can't assume that everyone RPing their character in their early 20s as a Dragoon did absolutely nothing but train all their early years, especially those that are elite dragoons and can cast spells/heal/whatever.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - SicketySix - 04-14-2015
I just want to address this real quick before bringing it back on topic. Just because someone openly disagrees with another, and then that person counters, is nothing more than a debate. We need to stop falling for this "Oh someone disagrees with me, they hate me" attitude that seems to be pretty rampant in this community.
And I think this was the first time someone accused me of being in some sort of clique here on the forums. Trust me when I say I am nowhere near that popular on here, nor in real life either
That being said, it's not so much age that is the problem. It's the believability of it. I personally do not believe a 19yr old miqote runs the biggest crime ring in Ul'dah, sits in the Quicksand talking about how mean/lean they are. Meanwhile the whole place is teeming with bounty hunters and city guards. I'm sorry but to me that's just not immersive.
It's believable that a Dragoon is very proficient in their abilities, but to be considered among the elite, without really having any actual experience fighting dragons like the ones in the trailer, once again, just does not seem immersive.
And I will admit, if someone has a nice backstory on why their young character is a badass, and it makes sense, I can buy into that and accepting it. But if it's all "Me 16yr old dragon vanquishing master level general dragoon because I say so".......then goodbye and have a nice day.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Knight Kat - 04-14-2015
(04-14-2015, 07:39 AM)Val Wrote: I agree with a lot of this, actually. If a character has been doing nothing but training all their life in that respect, then yes, it is entirely possible. But a lot of characters don't, and a lot only begin later on. You do raise very good points, only we can't assume that everyone RPing their character in their early 20s as a Dragoon did absolutely nothing but train all their early years, especially those that are elite dragoons and can cast spells/heal/whatever.
IMHO, any player playing a Dragoon who can cast conjury spells, or any spells belonging to others Classes and Jobs, may want to step back, and rethink their character. A Job is supposed to be a specialization. But I think that is a topic for another thread?
The knight training I cited was an extremely common scenario in the real-world middle ages. If we can't assume that everyone RPing their character in their early 20s as a Dragoon did absolutely nothing but train all their early years then what should we assume?
Should we question them on their back-story before deciding to RP with them? Should we just refuse to RP with them because we assume that they did not go through a decent amount of training?
Once again, I ask what is a decent amount of training for a Dragoon? The lore doesn't say yet.
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What I see here, and I am not directing this at anyone specific, is a swift attempt by some to try and limit or balance the impact of the lore bomb the video dropped. I think people fear the "Sues" this may cause. But throwing up arbitrary means to try and limit people can also offend those who are not the target.
My character is NOT Dragoon. She will never be one. However, she is 24 years old. I see plenty of realistic evidence from my research that she can have the training time needed at her age to be a skilled Lancer. It would suck if people started thinking my character's skills invalid because she's in her early twenties.
RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Warren Castille - 04-14-2015
(04-14-2015, 08:55 AM)Knight Kat Wrote: What I see here, and I am not directing this at anyone specific, is a swift attempt by some to try and limit or balance the impact of the lore bomb the video dropped. I think people fear the "Sues" this may cause. But throwing up arbitrary means to try and limit people can also offend those who are not the target.
My character is NOT Dragoon. She will never be one. However, she is 24 years old. I see plenty of realistic evidence from my research that she can have the training time needed at her age to be a skilled Lancer. It would suck if people started thinking my character's skills invalid because she's in her early twenties.
Was it really a lore bomb? All it showed is that awesome dragoons are in fact awesome, something that some dragoons roleplayers have already been asserting. I don't think it's reasonable to state that those dragoons in the trailer are indicative of every single one.
Maybe it is, though? Maybe you only get the armor and title and distinction once you're capable of performing those feats. That begs the question though of why people of that ability aren't remaining on the front lines. That, in essence, is what I'm having the most trouble digesting from all of this. Specialized, dedicated training doesn't usually get to walk away during wartime. Maybe it works similarly to tours of duty in the real world? X months on the frontline, followed by optional downtime? We just don't know right now.
My axe to grind is with the "I became a master dragoon in the time since the Calamity, and also I'm not in Ishgard for some reason" variety. It's a very specifically constructed straw-elf, and perhaps I should have 1) made that more clear or 2) kept my mouth shut.
As always - Roleplay what you want. Naysayers like myself on the forums have no authority over people enjoying their own immersion and storytelling.