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Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Printable Version

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RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Melkire - 04-15-2015

I love folks who roleplay as Brass Blade #173... and roleplay it well.

Not everyone needs be a snowflake, and not everyone needs be bottom-of-the-rung average D&D townsperson. There's a whole spectrum in between those rungs, too.

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Zyrusticae - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 11:46 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: But that's simply not true. The Scions are all NPCs. Raubahn and Ilberd? Also NPCs. Gaius? NPC. Bahamut? NPC. Yugiri? NPC.

It's perfectly possible to play someone without needing to borrow the tier of power that the WoL offers.

Splitting hairs at this point, but I said that they exist, not that ALL NPCs are not special snowflakes.

The point is that saying that 'everyone is OP' just because a large number of PCs are OP does not make that statement true. The lower-tier NPCs still exist, and ostensibly, in-universe, outnumber the PCs dramatically. The fact that the game reflects this poorly is immaterial to that.

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Warren Castille - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 12:33 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(04-15-2015, 11:46 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: But that's simply not true. The Scions are all NPCs. Raubahn and Ilberd? Also NPCs. Gaius? NPC. Bahamut? NPC. Yugiri? NPC.

It's perfectly possible to play someone without needing to borrow the tier of power that the WoL offers.

Splitting hairs at this point, but I said that they exist, not that ALL NPCs are not special snowflakes.

The point is that saying that 'everyone is OP' just because a large number of PCs are OP does not make that statement true. The lower-tier NPCs still exist, and ostensibly, in-universe, outnumber the PCs dramatically. The fact that the game reflects this poorly is immaterial to that.

Your context definitely doesn't emphasize that.

Statement: When everyone is super, no one will be
Retort: We have people who aren't super, they're called NPCS
Logical implication: If NPCs aren't super, PCs are.

You're also still glossing over that there are a lot of NPC-tier PCs out there.

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Aya - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 11:55 AM)Melkire Wrote: I love folks who roleplay as Brass Blade #173... and roleplay it well.

Not everyone needs be a snowflake, and not everyone needs be bottom-of-the-rung average D&D townsperson. There's a whole spectrum in between those rungs, too.
Its that fine line between extraordinary capability and "super-powers", one contributes toward immersion and the other can threaten it.  Unfortunately there really are no hard and fast rules are there!  And worse than that, everyone has their own individual perspective!  Its coooooomplicated!

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Zyrusticae - 04-15-2015

Quote:You're also still glossing over that there are a lot of NPC-tier PCs out there.

Because I treat them like NPCs. Undecided

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Warren Castille - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 12:42 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
Quote:You're also still glossing over that there are a lot of NPC-tier PCs out there.

Because I treat them like NPCs. Undecided

...and you don't see how that possibly offensive to anyone?

Edit, expanded upon: Declaring yourself the main character in an RP community is missing the entire point of being in a community.

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Melkire - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 12:40 PM)Aya Wrote:
(04-15-2015, 11:55 AM)Melkire Wrote: I love folks who roleplay as Brass Blade #173... and roleplay it well.

Not everyone needs be a snowflake, and not everyone needs be bottom-of-the-rung average D&D townsperson. There's a whole spectrum in between those rungs, too.
Its that fine line between extraordinary capability and "super-powers", one contributes toward immersion and the other can threaten it.  Unfortunately there really are no hard and fast rules are there!  And worse than that, everyone has their own individual perspective!  Its coooooomplicated!

Ehhhh, I'd debate the existence of a fine line. It might look fine from a distance, like a solar terminator, but when you get real close you see that it's really one huge, long, wide field of grey.

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Aya - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 12:47 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(04-15-2015, 12:40 PM)Aya Wrote:
(04-15-2015, 11:55 AM)Melkire Wrote: I love folks who roleplay as Brass Blade #173... and roleplay it well.

Not everyone needs be a snowflake, and not everyone needs be bottom-of-the-rung average D&D townsperson. There's a whole spectrum in between those rungs, too.
Its that fine line between extraordinary capability and "super-powers", one contributes toward immersion and the other can threaten it.  Unfortunately there really are no hard and fast rules are there!  And worse than that, everyone has their own individual perspective!  Its coooooomplicated!

Ehhhh, I'd debate the existence of a fine line. It might look fine from a distance, like a solar terminator, but when you get real close you see that it's really one huge, long, wide field of grey.
I suppose!  It's just one of those things that people feel innately.  When someone goes "over the top" to someone it doesn't really seem like a grey area. I think what makes it a grey area is the number of people and the number of individual perspectives involved!  I guess context does that too Smile

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - McBeefâ„¢ - 04-15-2015

I play most of my chars pretty close to 'real life' physical standards. However I have a secret defense against those I think are not being respectful, or have crazy special abilities.

Or start fights without asking me.

If I think they're being ridiculous, I just have my character step out of the way, or dodge casually. To me the biggest problem isn't characters being ICly more powerful than mine, it's people not knowing how to use it.

I'm cool with my character being way out of their league, fighting some sort of desperate battle to escape or survive.

I'm less cool with being stabbed to death during a scene, or cut in half while I'm in the quicksand, because they're Buff Van DarkBlade, last of the Vampire kings.

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Zyrusticae - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 12:45 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: ...and you don't see how that possibly offensive to anyone?

Edit, expanded upon: Declaring yourself the main character in an RP community is missing the entire point of being in a community.
Everyone's the MC of their own stories.

However, the grand majority of the time no one is fighting anything, and no one is actively participating in any grand story. Such is the nature of public roleplaying. As such, the grand majority of time this entire thread is completely moot. It's only those rare one-off situations where someone is actually fighting someone else that this even matters. (Note that this sort of quibbling is why I don't participate in events like the Grindstone, and avoid RP-PVP entirely if I can at all help it.)

But when the gloves come off, I prefer it if everyone is on the same playing field, otherwise we do get the situations where someone who's playing at MC-levels is facing off against someone playing at side-character levels and things just don't work out for anyone involved. It IS possible to have an ensemble cast of major protagonists and have it work, and I think that's the preferable way to go about things, rather than trying to mix everyone in without a baseline to go off of.

However, that is simply my 'perfect world' version of events. Obviously, the reality is that we have a huge variety of PCs doing a huge variety of things at very different levels of competency, and that's just something we have to deal with.

And my way of dealing with it is by placing 'weaker' characters at a lower level. Is that nice? No, but then again, neither is ignoring their existence entirely, which is something I see bandied about as a solution around here so often. They're background characters, which is fine, because the NPCs aren't alive enough to serve that role sufficiently, but I'm not going to bring myself down to their level just so that nobody butts heads or stands out from the crowd.

AND THE THING IS - if nobody is OP, then nobody is OP. There's no point trying to homogenize everyone to fight against... heh... homogenization due to power creep or any such thing, especially when we already have a decent baseline to go off of. In the end, power levels are meaningless outside of the context in which they are used to further a story, and the constant quibbling over how OP one is allowed to be are just comical in the face of how little they matter in the grand scheme of things. The game clearly renders out these kinds of superheroics to be possible on a very regular basis now, so why are some so adamant about simply not allowing it? It's weird. I don't get it.

If folks want to play NPCs, they can play NPCs. Just don't freakin' whine when I treat you like an NPC, nor join you in the effort, capiche?

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Sylastair - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 01:08 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I play most of my chars pretty close to 'real life' physical standards. However I have a secret defense against those I think are not being respectful, or have crazy special abilities.

Or start fights without asking me.

If I think they're being ridiculous, I just have my character step out of the way, or dodge casually. To me the biggest problem isn't characters being ICly more powerful than mine, it's people not knowing how to use it.

I'm cool with my character being way out of their league, fighting some sort of desperate battle to escape or survive.

I'm less cool with being stabbed to death during a scene, or cut in half while I'm in the quicksand, because they're Buff Van DarkBlade, last of the Vampire kings.
If I ever start a band it's going to be called "Buff van Dark blade and the Last Vampire Kings". You can have 10% of our total profits because that name is so metal.

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Gharen - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 01:11 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(04-15-2015, 12:45 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: ...and you don't see how that possibly offensive to anyone?

Edit, expanded upon: Declaring yourself the main character in an RP community is missing the entire point of being in a community.
...Lots of self important stuff!!!

If folks want to play NPCs, they can play NPCs. Just don't freakin' whine when I treat you like an NPC, nor join you in the effort, capiche?


So... what you're saying is you're a Jerk?

Edit: and that we shouldn't be surprised when you act like one?

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Melkire - 04-15-2015

[Moderator Hardhat]

BEHAVE.

This thread is now on watch. I've had to hand out warnings already. Don't make me reach for temporary bans. If you don't have anything constructive to say, move on and address something/someone else.

[/Moderator Hardhat]

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Warren Castille - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 01:11 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: I never want to lose a fight that isn't scripted

Just call it what it is. You play on a higher level, you put people on a low one. There's no way Goliath loses to David.

Edit: Dammit Osric.

RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Val - 04-15-2015

(04-15-2015, 01:11 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(04-15-2015, 12:45 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: ...and you don't see how that possibly offensive to anyone?

Edit, expanded upon: Declaring yourself the main character in an RP community is missing the entire point of being in a community.
Everyone's the MC of their own stories.

However, the grand majority of the time no one is fighting anything, and no one is actively participating in any grand story. Such is the nature of public roleplaying. As such, the grand majority of time this entire thread is completely moot. It's only those rare one-off situations where someone is actually fighting someone else that this even matters. (Note that this sort of quibbling is why I don't participate in events like the Grindstone, and avoid RP-PVP entirely if I can at all help it.)

But when the gloves come off, I prefer it if everyone is on the same playing field, otherwise we do get the situations where someone who's playing at MC-levels is facing off against someone playing at side-character levels and things just don't work out for anyone involved. It IS possible to have an ensemble cast of major protagonists and have it work, and I think that's the preferable way to go about things, rather than trying to mix everyone in without a baseline to go off of.

However, that is simply my 'perfect world' version of events. Obviously, the reality is that we have a huge variety of PCs doing a huge variety of things at very different levels of competency, and that's just something we have to deal with.

And my way of dealing with it is by placing 'weaker' characters at a lower level. Is that nice? No, but then again, neither is ignoring their existence entirely, which is something I see bandied about as a solution around here so often. They're background characters, which is fine, because the NPCs aren't alive enough to serve that role sufficiently, but I'm not going to bring myself down to their level just so that nobody butts heads or stands out from the crowd.

AND THE THING IS - if nobody is OP, then nobody is OP. There's no point trying to homogenize everyone to fight against... heh... homogenization due to power creep or any such thing, especially when we already have a decent baseline to go off of. In the end, power levels are meaningless outside of the context in which they are used to further a story, and the constant quibbling over how OP one is allowed to be are just comical in the face of how little they matter in the grand scheme of things. The game clearly renders out these kinds of superheroics to be possible on a very regular basis now, so why are some so adamant about simply not allowing it? It's weird. I don't get it.

If folks want to play NPCs, they can play NPCs. Just don't freakin' whine when I treat you like an NPC, nor join you in the effort, capiche?

I'm fine with people not being as powerful as others. Why? Because it isn't a contest, as someone has said in the other thread (at least, I think it was the other one). 

When Val and Berrod first met, for example, they exchanged blows and were on par. They both won one and tied for their third, earning each other's respect. After a while, Val's story took him to helping Faye run the FC and being relatively unable to get as much combat in as he used to. Berrod, on the other hand, kept fighting and training. When they met and fought another time, Val found that Berrod far surpassed him, and I'm entirely okay with that. In fact, I expect it because it's realistic and it's simply what would happen.

Another of my characters, Cyrus, is a knight in training. He's yet to find someone to actually teach him how to properly fight, and so while he can defend himself and is physically fit, he is largely without technique. Most fighters would take him out.

I love watching people play normal characters, as someone else mentioned earlier about the random brass blade. I feel it adds more flavor. If I wanted to play a main character or something, I'd just.. you know. Play a game. I feel that one of the worst things you can do is try to make yourself the main character of anything. Yes, your character has their own personal story, but that isn't an excuse to make them super powered protagonist #whatever. I feel that it's respectful both to the community and the people you RP with to keep yourself, and your character, in check when it comes to limiting one's power. It's incredibly obnoxious otherwise, and when someone runs around wanting to mary sue themselves as the main character of whatever, they hopefully won't be surprised to find people don't want to do things with them.

Edit: And let it be said I'm perfectly fine with losing fights so long as the other individual, in a non-rolled combat scenario, actually earns it. If they're not being realistic in their attacks or expect Val to stand there in a daze while they do some super somersault backflip and expect him NOT to try to move in the time they've given him, assuming he isn't already hurt or injured otherwise, they're going to be sorely disappointed. This isn't an anime. People don't stand still while you take six episodes to make an attack.