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+--- Thread: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] (/showthread.php?tid=11181)
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Kellach Woods - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 02:17 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: How is it an asspull? It's a new person who is scheming to some end. We get a whole cutscene of him being... something... following 2.55. We know there's something cutting out the legs from under lesser consortiums. We know he controls the Brass Blades. He's got a chance to outright seize unchallenged power, and do it in front of everyone, and get away with it. You're telling me that's out of character for him? He'll win, completely and utterly, and the only people who would oppose him would be ruined by him first.You're making it sound like he cares about PR.
I'm not saying he grows a heart. I'm saying he makes enough of a show with public PR to trick everyone into thinking he does while he sleeps on the riches of all of the people he betrayed and killed to get there.
He doesn't. Otherwise the whole Chefsbane thing would have never happened, otherwise people wouldn't use his name in fear even PRIOR (Ul'dah questline, around level 13, before the Traders' Spurn thing - likely more moments as well but I can't remember them off hand) to this development.
I'll do you one better - show me foreshadowing that he actually does care about his reputation because right now I'm not seeing it.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Verad - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 02:45 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: We like betrayal, we like sin, and we like dirty deeds. Just who we are.
The expression and interpretation thereof varies, and varies greatly. How they vary tell us a great deal more than the essentialist bits.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Kage - 04-20-2015
It's more like "What keeps Lolorito from have the -power- he wants vs making sure the gorram city-state doesn't go into civil war?"
No use having power when what you're ruling is in the shitter, which a civil war would do.
Losing money to pay for funds etc. No bueno.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Aya - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 02:48 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: You're making it sound like he cares about PR.Why does PR have to be positive? Perhaps he's established just the reputation he wants. That doesn't mean he couldn't turn that fearsome reputation toward something that wins support.Â
He doesn't. Otherwise the whole Chefsbane thing would have never happened, otherwise people wouldn't use his name in fear even PRIOR (Ul'dah questline, around level 13, before the Traders' Spurn thing - likely more moments as well but I can't remember them off hand) to this development.
I'll do you one better - show me foreshadowing that he actually does care about his reputation because right now I'm not seeing it.
I think the arch of such a leader from rise toward holding power can take quite unexpected turns!
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Warren Castille - 04-20-2015
It's a minor derail, so I'll spoil my tangent.
![[Image: uAITm8R.png]](http://i.imgur.com/uAITm8R.png)
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Kage - 04-20-2015
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Warren Castille - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 02:48 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(04-20-2015, 02:17 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: How is it an asspull? It's a new person who is scheming to some end. We get a whole cutscene of him being... something... following 2.55. We know there's something cutting out the legs from under lesser consortiums. We know he controls the Brass Blades. He's got a chance to outright seize unchallenged power, and do it in front of everyone, and get away with it. You're telling me that's out of character for him? He'll win, completely and utterly, and the only people who would oppose him would be ruined by him first.You're making it sound like he cares about PR.
I'm not saying he grows a heart. I'm saying he makes enough of a show with public PR to trick everyone into thinking he does while he sleeps on the riches of all of the people he betrayed and killed to get there.
He doesn't. Otherwise the whole Chefsbane thing would have never happened, otherwise people wouldn't use his name in fear even PRIOR (Ul'dah questline, around level 13, before the Traders' Spurn thing - likely more moments as well but I can't remember them off hand) to this development.
I'll do you one better - show me foreshadowing that he actually does care about his reputation because right now I'm not seeing it.
His characterization this far has shown that, yes. Are you aware of the heel/face turn trope? Lolorito never before had the chance to actually seize power like he could now. He's also aware that, in light of recent riots and increasing tensions, that if he took power while not seeming to change his attitude at all that the nation would devour him and tear itself apart. He LIKES being rich, and powerful. And now, for the first time, he's got a real shot at seizing everything.
I mean, I've given motive, means and plenty of reasoning. If you still feel it's an asspull, no amount of plausible speculation in the world's going to change your mind. Just keep in mind that the CUL quests were available since 2.0 and a lot has changed since then.
We're trying to look at the bigger picture while it's still being painted.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - McBeefâ„¢ - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 02:50 PM)Verad Wrote:(04-20-2015, 02:45 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: We like betrayal, we like sin, and we like dirty deeds. Just who we are.
The expression and interpretation thereof varies, and varies greatly. How they vary tell us a great deal more than the essentialist bits.
I agree, I am just stating such themes are by no means a fad, caused by a single television and novel series. I am not saying you believe this, but I often hear GoT parroted as the reason these themes are popular.
In fact GoT is popular /because/ these themes are timeless.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Erik Mynhier - 04-20-2015
To be honest as ooc I have learned the lore over the years and ic as Erik has evolved as a character, I have come to see both these factions as two sides of the same coin. You have the Royalist and to an extent the Sworn as a group that believes in rule from on high, but draw that power from tradition, and so on. Then you have the Monetarist, and to a degree the Blades as a group that also believes in rule from on high, but draws their power from money and influence. So from wealth or divine right, both believe in power over the lesser of their society. I believe that both sides are doomed to fail as hinted by the Sultana's wish to form a republic. Many, myself included, saw that as weakness, but maybe its the sign of the characters wisdom that neither side can be trusted and that power must be passed to the people.
That said it is my own opinion that this "power of the people" is represented by the Flames, an organization that answers to both sides of the coin but is made up of the common people who want freedom of choice. I have a feeling that this will play out and we may have a civil war where the Flames will step in to remove both current powers. With either the Flame General or his son leading that force, as good characters I see them pulling a Washington and saying, "I'm not your new king, vote for a leader... but I'll be a president." The only reason I think the son will be that leader is I see them saving Raubahn to be the new leader of Ala Mhigo once it is liberated in a future expansion.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Kellach Woods - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 02:58 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: His characterization this far has shown that, yes. Are you aware of the heel/face turn trope? Lolorito never before had the chance to actually seize power like he could now. He's also aware that, in light of recent riots and increasing tensions, that if he took power while not seeming to change his attitude at all that the nation would devour him and tear itself apart. He LIKES being rich, and powerful. And now, for the first time, he's got a real shot at seizing everything.If it's carefully foreshadowed and doesn't happen immediately, then sure, I'm down for it.
I mean, I've given motive, means and plenty of reasoning. If you still feel it's an asspull, no amount of plausible speculation in the world's going to change your mind. Just keep in mind that the CUL quests were available since 2.0 and a lot has changed since then.
However, if there's nothing showing it right now I can't make that speculation in good faith.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Seriphyn - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 03:15 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: The only reason I think the son will be that leader is I see them saving Raubahn to be the new leader of Ala Mhigo once it is liberated in a future expansion.
Aw yiss
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Aduu Avagnar - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 03:19 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:If he seizes power and doesnt try to solidify a good powerbase through good pr he would see a civil war headed by the Flames. If he gets the people on his side, then the Flames are less likely to start anything as they would not gave the support of the people.(04-20-2015, 02:58 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: His characterization this far has shown that, yes. Are you aware of the heel/face turn trope? Lolorito never before had the chance to actually seize power like he could now. He's also aware that, in light of recent riots and increasing tensions, that if he took power while not seeming to change his attitude at all that the nation would devour him and tear itself apart. He LIKES being rich, and powerful. And now, for the first time, he's got a real shot at seizing everything.If it's carefully foreshadowed and doesn't happen immediately, then sure, I'm down for it.
I mean, I've given motive, means and plenty of reasoning. If you still feel it's an asspull, no amount of plausible speculation in the world's going to change your mind. Just keep in mind that the CUL quests were available since 2.0 and a lot has changed since then.
However, if there's nothing showing it right now I can't make that speculation in good faith.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - V'aleera - 04-20-2015
That's kind of a big "if" though. This is the same Lolorito who has been all but entirely upfront about his criminal suppression of the lower classes and his assassination of those who would even begin to think of accruing their own power or wealth.
Teledji Adeledji on the other hand was much more clearly grooming himself to be a peoples' champion among the Syndicate. With that in mind, it may have been Lolorito's intention to use Teledji as a well-liked puppet in lieu of himself taking front and center. This would also explain his apparent frustration and displeasure we saw from him after all the events had played out.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Aduu Avagnar - 04-20-2015
(04-20-2015, 06:10 PM)Intaki Wrote: That's kind of a big "if" though. This is the same Lolorito who has been all but entirely upfront about his criminal suppression of the lower classes and his assassination of those who would even begin to think of accruing their own power or wealth.the if was more regards to the seizing power.
Teledji Adeledji on the other hand was much more clearly grooming himself to be a peoples' champion among the Syndicate. With that in mind, it may have been Lolorito's intention to use Teledji as a well-liked puppet in lieu of himself taking front and center. This would also explain his apparent frustration and displeasure we saw from him after all the events had played out.
Anyone that takes power and doesnt have the support of the people tends to risk an uprising.
RE: Royalist vs Monetarist [Spoilery] - Kage - 04-20-2015
Actually, some people reminded me...
Telediji showed a quite of interest in the Omega [Weapon] that is at Cartenau[?]. Perhaps this was something Lolorito was banking on and that's also another reason why Telediji biting the dust upset him.