(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:

(06-07-2015, 10:51 PM)Verad Wrote:

(06-05-2015, 10:18 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: What is there to prove? Au Ra were born like that, it's not their problem to begin with.

Racial tension is one thing, sure. It's there in the game (and much more tasteful in comparison), but lets be honest; a lot of this is just a glorified excuse to bring OOC feelings about Au Ra design into RP just like with the Miqo'te before them. It's going to burn bridges, not build them.

Besides, it's insulting and disrespectful to those of us that actually have to deal with being a minority. I get enough harassment in real-life as-is; I certainly don't need any of it here, not when I'm trying my hardest to escape from my worldly woes for at least an hour or two.

Edit: For the record, I'm fine with fictionalized conflict, but only when it's actually justified. This isn't.

What defines a justified fictional conflict?

One supported by the lore and the story of the game.

For example, if they created true blood garleans as a playable race. Obviously tension between them and other PCs would make sense given the lore, it would be a justified fictional conflict (I don't really like that nomenclature though)

Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so. They're just newcomers to a new land. I can see shock, interest, curiosity, but any large scale hostility (except maybe for things like THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR JOBS, or the other bits of generalized discontent immigrant populations tend to bring) seems manufactured to me.

Yes they look kind of... beasty, but so do Miqo'te. Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

(06-08-2015, 12:19 AM)Verad Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: One supported by the lore and the story of the game.

For example, if they created true blood garleans as a playable race. Obviously tension between them and other PCs would make sense given the lore, it would be a justified fictional conflict (I don't really like that nomenclature though)

Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so. They're just newcomers to a new land. I can see shock, interest, curiosity, but any large scale hostility (except maybe for things like THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR JOBS, or the other bits of generalized discontent immigrant populations tend to bring) seems manufactured to me.

Yes they look kind of... beasty, but so do Miqo'te. Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

By that definition, I don't think we can say much one way or the another about conflict being unjustifiable, because we don't know much of anything about their lore or their story - only their appearance.

If it turns out that there's longstanding antipathy between Ishgard and the Au Ra clans, for example, suddenly there's a justifiable in-setting conflict, one that a number of Ishgardian RPers are going to need to incorporate. I don't know if that's likely or not, but it's a possibility. Or maybe they have very harmonious relations and then there's even less justification. 

But that's one possible definition. Vetiver's definition seemed to have more to do with whether it might make other players uncomfortable, or whether the conflict served some kind of thematic purpose. So to continue in that vein, if we find it's possible that this kind of conflict is justifiable through in-game lore, is it still unjustified for other reasons?

(06-08-2015, 12:26 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:19 AM)Verad Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: One supported by the lore and the story of the game.

For example, if they created true blood garleans as a playable race. Obviously tension between them and other PCs would make sense given the lore, it would be a justified fictional conflict (I don't really like that nomenclature though)

Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so. They're just newcomers to a new land. I can see shock, interest, curiosity, but any large scale hostility (except maybe for things like THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR JOBS, or the other bits of generalized discontent immigrant populations tend to bring) seems manufactured to me.

Yes they look kind of... beasty, but so do Miqo'te. Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

By that definition, I don't think we can say much one way or the another about conflict being unjustifiable, because we don't know much of anything about their lore or their story - only their appearance.

If it turns out that there's longstanding antipathy between Ishgard and the Au Ra clans, for example, suddenly there's a justifiable in-setting conflict, one that a number of Ishgardian RPers are going to need to incorporate. I don't know if that's likely or not, but it's a possibility. Or maybe they have very harmonious relations and then there's even less justification. 

But that's one possible definition. Vetiver's definition seemed to have more to do with whether it might make other players uncomfortable, or whether the conflict served some kind of thematic purpose. So to continue in that vein, if we find it's possible that this kind of conflict is justifiable through in-game lore, is it still unjustified for other reasons?

It is possible, however nothing up until now has lead us to believe that is the case. Though anything can be revealed.

And no, to answer the second question you posed, I don't think so. Regardless of any real world issues, Eorzea is portrayed as a land in the midst of turmoil and change. Part of that is racism.

The fact that a player might find in game racism problematic, or that it might remind one of issues of discrimination which face us in the real world, does not mean that it should not be RPed. Racism is written into the lore, much like many other troubling topics like rape, murder, slavery, and war. If Au Ra are discriminated against in the Lore, then expect that to flow out in RP, and if people don't like it they should choose a different race.

For example, my Brass Blade character treats all Highlanders like shit, because of the refugee problem in Ul'dah. He mocks them, tells them their kind isn't wanted here, and generally is an ass. However, it is just mirroring the attitude shown by Brass Blades in the lore.

(06-08-2015, 12:36 AM)Brianna Dunham Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:26 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:19 AM)Verad Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: One supported by the lore and the story of the game.

For example, if they created true blood garleans as a playable race. Obviously tension between them and other PCs would make sense given the lore, it would be a justified fictional conflict (I don't really like that nomenclature though)

Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so. They're just newcomers to a new land. I can see shock, interest, curiosity, but any large scale hostility (except maybe for things like THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR JOBS, or the other bits of generalized discontent immigrant populations tend to bring) seems manufactured to me.

Yes they look kind of... beasty, but so do Miqo'te. Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

By that definition, I don't think we can say much one way or the another about conflict being unjustifiable, because we don't know much of anything about their lore or their story - only their appearance.

If it turns out that there's longstanding antipathy between Ishgard and the Au Ra clans, for example, suddenly there's a justifiable in-setting conflict, one that a number of Ishgardian RPers are going to need to incorporate. I don't know if that's likely or not, but it's a possibility. Or maybe they have very harmonious relations and then there's even less justification. 

But that's one possible definition. Vetiver's definition seemed to have more to do with whether it might make other players uncomfortable, or whether the conflict served some kind of thematic purpose. So to continue in that vein, if we find it's possible that this kind of conflict is justifiable through in-game lore, is it still unjustified for other reasons?

It is possible, however nothing up until now has lead us to believe that is the case. Though anything can be revealed.

And no, to answer the second question you posed, I don't think so. Regardless of any real world issues, Eorzea is portrayed as a land in the midst of turmoil and change. Part of that is racism.

The fact that a player might find in game racism problematic, or that it might remind one of issues of discrimination which face us in the real world, does not mean that it should not be RPed. Racism is written into the lore, much like many other troubling topics like rape, murder, slavery, and war. If Au Ra are discriminated against in the Lore, then expect that to flow out in RP, and if people don't like it they should choose a different race.

For example, my Brass Blade character treats all Highlanders like shit, because of the refugee problem in Ul'dah. He mocks them, tells them their kind isn't wanted here, and generally is an ass. However, it is just mirroring the attitude shown by Brass Blades in the lore.

That is all fine but you are also telling people that if it is not set in to the game it cannot be Rp'd. Each person is in charge of their own character. I know Miqo'te who are racist against Hyur just from RP interactions with them. My Au'ra is becoming racist against Miqo'te due to several very unhappy incidents with them through RP herself. I've seen Midlanders hate on lalafells. Racism is not just from npc. It can be taught through families and learned from others or through actions/interactions with races.

At this point,. I say if someone wants to RP the conflict and the other player is accepting; go for it. If someone tries to rp the conflict and the other player is uncomfortable a simple tell should fix that. If not? Blacklist and move on.

(06-08-2015, 12:38 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:36 AM)Brianna Dunham Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:26 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:19 AM)Verad Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: One supported by the lore and the story of the game.

For example, if they created true blood garleans as a playable race. Obviously tension between them and other PCs would make sense given the lore, it would be a justified fictional conflict (I don't really like that nomenclature though)

Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so. They're just newcomers to a new land. I can see shock, interest, curiosity, but any large scale hostility (except maybe for things like THEY'RE GONNA TAKE OUR JOBS, or the other bits of generalized discontent immigrant populations tend to bring) seems manufactured to me.

Yes they look kind of... beasty, but so do Miqo'te. Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

By that definition, I don't think we can say much one way or the another about conflict being unjustifiable, because we don't know much of anything about their lore or their story - only their appearance.

If it turns out that there's longstanding antipathy between Ishgard and the Au Ra clans, for example, suddenly there's a justifiable in-setting conflict, one that a number of Ishgardian RPers are going to need to incorporate. I don't know if that's likely or not, but it's a possibility. Or maybe they have very harmonious relations and then there's even less justification. 

But that's one possible definition. Vetiver's definition seemed to have more to do with whether it might make other players uncomfortable, or whether the conflict served some kind of thematic purpose. So to continue in that vein, if we find it's possible that this kind of conflict is justifiable through in-game lore, is it still unjustified for other reasons?

It is possible, however nothing up until now has lead us to believe that is the case. Though anything can be revealed.

And no, to answer the second question you posed, I don't think so. Regardless of any real world issues, Eorzea is portrayed as a land in the midst of turmoil and change. Part of that is racism.

The fact that a player might find in game racism problematic, or that it might remind one of issues of discrimination which face us in the real world, does not mean that it should not be RPed. Racism is written into the lore, much like many other troubling topics like rape, murder, slavery, and war. If Au Ra are discriminated against in the Lore, then expect that to flow out in RP, and if people don't like it they should choose a different race.

For example, my Brass Blade character treats all Highlanders like shit, because of the refugee problem in Ul'dah. He mocks them, tells them their kind isn't wanted here, and generally is an ass. However, it is just mirroring the attitude shown by Brass Blades in the lore.

That is all fine but you are also telling people that if it is not set in to the game it cannot be Rp'd. Each person is in charge of their own character. I know Miqo'te who are racist against Hyur just from RP interactions with them. My Au'ra is becoming racist against Miqo'te due to several very unhappy incidents with them through RP herself. I've seen Midlanders hate on lalafells. Racism is not just from npc. It can be taught through families and learned from others or through actions/interactions with races.

At this point,. I say if someone wants to RP the conflict and the other player is accepting; go for it. If someone tries to rp the conflict and the other player is uncomfortable a simple tell should fix that. If not? Blacklist and move on.

I don't think you read my post:
"Reacting with hostility to the Au Ra is kind of unjustified though, unless your character has a personal reason for doing so."

I agree, nothing wrong with people doing it on their own for their own reasons. I'm just saying there is nothing as of yet which implies there is large scale or systemic discrimination against the Au Ra.

(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

(06-08-2015, 07:45 AM)Lilia Lia Wrote:

(06-08-2015, 12:10 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Other beastlike tribes are perfectly accepted in Eorzean culture, so I just don't see most people being all that freaked out.

What about Amalj'aa, Sahagin, Kobolds, etc?  There's a lot of racial diversity in Eorzea that isn't accounted for in the player races, and these are far from accepted in society.

(06-08-2015, 07:50 AM)Gegenji Wrote: And, really, the Beast Tribe rep quests show that there's plenty of good folks on the beastly side.

(06-05-2015, 10:18 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:

(06-05-2015, 09:25 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote:

(06-05-2015, 08:53 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: I really don't understand this and maybe I'm missing something, but what is there that's enjoyable about being treated like a racial minority circa late 1800s?

It has story potential.  The need to prove yourself to people who fundamentally suspect or dislike you.  Being misunderstood/distrusted and having to win the trust of those around you.  As Seriphyn pointed out, not everyone will welcome this kind of conflict but many people will see it as the beginning of an interesting story.

What is there to prove? Au Ra were born like that, it's not their problem to begin with.

Racial tension is one thing, sure. It's there in the game (and much more tasteful in comparison), but lets be honest; a lot of this is just a glorified excuse to bring OOC feelings about Au Ra design into RP just like with the Miqo'te before them. It's going to burn bridges, not build them.

Besides, it's insulting and disrespectful to those of us that actually have to deal with being a minority. I get enough harassment in real-life as-is; I certainly don't need any of it here, not when I'm trying my hardest to escape from my worldly woes for at least an hour or two.

Edit: For the record, I'm fine with fictionalized conflict, but only when it's actually justified. This isn't.

(06-08-2015, 07:55 AM)Steel Wolf Wrote: Wouldn't it be pretty amazing if, in the next expansion, the beast tribes and Grand Companies banded together to wash out the Garleans?

(06-09-2015, 07:51 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: If you want me to be honest (and not quoting anyone in particular because I'm so burnt out by this point that I don't even care anymore), then I will: I think racism is a subject that cannot be trusted with 99% of roleplayers to handle with any sort of tact or respect for those around them.

Like sexism, homophobia and transphobia, it should not be touched. Just don't. RP is personal rather people want to deny it or not and these are the type of subjects that hit at an OOC level. They really, really do. Trust me on that.

I believe that the emotional well-being of those around you trumps your RP desires any day of the week. If you want to play those scenarios out, then do so in your private circle, not public where feelings can and will be hurt.

And let's be honest: it's been made very clear that OOC feelings will be driving IC Au Ra hate elsewhere. Just take a peek in any thread relating to them; it's quite damning.

(06-09-2015, 07:51 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: And let's be honest: it's been made very clear that OOC feelings will be driving IC Au Ra hate elsewhere. Just take a peek in any thread relating to them; it's quite damning.