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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead (/showthread.php?tid=17480)
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Teadrinker - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 06:41 PM)cleverFoxes Wrote: Do you suppose that this could mean that there are other Dragoons in the world? And that this is ONLY referring to Dragoons in the Order?
Highly unlikely.
Dragoons are decidedly a very Ishgardian 'flavor' job.
About the only place I'd think of where they'd be is Meracydia where Dragons originally migrated North from ((Someone fact check me here I could be wrong))
But even then there is absolutely nothing to suggest this is the case.
(10-16-2016, 06:48 PM)McBeef Wrote: Am I being crazy here?
Didn't the Dragoon trainer keep his soulstone? Why would they let him do that and give it to an adventurer if there were only 30?
Because the Quest was probably written before Heavensward lore was finalized.
....
No really, that's the answer. >_>
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Seriphyn - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 06:48 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:(10-16-2016, 06:41 PM)cleverFoxes Wrote: Do you suppose that this could mean that there are other Dragoons in the world? And that this is ONLY referring to Dragoons in the Order?
Highly unlikely.
Dragoons are decidedly a very Ishgardian 'flavor' job.
About the only place I'd think of where they'd be is Meracydia where Dragons originally migrated North from ((Someone fact check me here I could be wrong))
But even then there is absolutely nothing to suggest this is the case.
Like how samurai are decidedly Japanese, etc.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Haven's Fox - 10-16-2016
There are bound to be more than 30 soulstones for Dragoons. The role of Dragoons in Ishgard is brutal with likely a pretty rough mortality rate over the 1000 years of war. So what happend to those soulstones of past Dragoons that were killed in action? It would be impossible to gather all of the fallen soulstones. You have these fighters who jump great heights to battle dragons in the air. You have a city that is perched over a vast chasm where fights up against the city walls didn't seem that uncommon. There is tons of room for past stones to be lost so there has to be a way to recreate them.
Not only that you have the training of new Dragoons. First you start as a lancer of course and work your way up but what happens when you are first given a soulstone? It becomes training back from start to learn the Dragoon ways. I fail to believe that any of the Dragoons didn't have a rough time learning how to jump and harness that power to a precise point. Yes you have that past knowledge and perhaps know how but it's not going to be like turning on a light switch.
It's going to take any new Dragoon a bit to adjust to the soulstone and different fighting style before they are worthy of being titled as Dragoons and put into service.
(jump to :40ish seconds)
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - cleverFoxes - 10-16-2016
Then the easy answer here is to say that your character was, at one point, a DRG. Because so long as you held a soulstone at some point and learned those skills, they stay with you. As is the case with all NPC trainers who pass on their stone to you. Just means that characters can't be actively serving Dragoons.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Kilieit - 10-16-2016
Also, let's kind of not forget that Alberic is a special case?? He's an ex-Azure Dragoon. I bet Estinien gets to keep his soul crystal, too. That doesn't mean Heustienne or Montorgains (or any other dragoon) did.
Still stand by what I said on page 1 though. I think forcing people who have sunk months or years into RPing an Ishgardian dragoon, to the extent that removing that part of the character would involve retconning those months/years of roleplay to have never happened and rerolling the character completely, to give it up because the lore writers decided to arbitrarily stick a really low number on the job is... harsh. There are doable workarounds for the RP community; I think we should use them.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Teadrinker - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 06:51 PM)cleverFoxes Wrote: Then the easy answer here is to say that your character was, at one point, a DRG. Because so long as you held a soulstone at some point and learned those skills, they stay with you. As is the case with all NPC trainers who pass on their stone to you. Just means that characters can't be actively serving Dragoons.
Ah, but therein lies the rub.
Does one keep Dragoon skills once they part with the Soulstone or do they go back to being a Lancer?
.....
The answer is Lancer but if someone wanted to RP it that way I'd probably shrug and look the other way as well.
(10-16-2016, 06:53 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Still stand by what I said on page 1 though. I think forcing people who have sunk months or years into RPing an Ishgardian dragoon, to the extent that removing that part of the character would involve retconning those months/years of roleplay to have never happened and rerolling the character completely, to give it up because the lore writers decided to arbitrarily stick a really low number on the job is... harsh. There are doable workarounds for the RP community; I think we should use them.
Pretty much this.
It IS lorebreaking.
I'll be looking the other way though.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - S'imba - 10-16-2016
What's your stop a dragoon from going heretic and running off with a soulstone? The holy see isn't omnipotent or all seeing. Soulstones are about the size of a quarter. There's absolutely no way the they can manage to control things that closely. Unless the holy see can wave their hand and summon them back.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - cleverFoxes - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 06:54 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:(10-16-2016, 06:51 PM)cleverFoxes Wrote: Then the easy answer here is to say that your character was, at one point, a DRG. Because so long as you held a soulstone at some point and learned those skills, they stay with you. As is the case with all NPC trainers who pass on their stone to you. Just means that characters can't be actively serving Dragoons.
Ah, but therein lies the rub.
Does one keep Dragoon skills once they part with the Soulstone or do they go back to being a Lancer?
.....
The answer is Lancer but if someone wanted to RP it that way I'd probably shrug and look the other way as well.
If that were the case, though, every trainer NPC would become a 'gladiator' or 'marauder' after parting with their soulstone but we see that's clearly not the case. They retain their Job specific skills.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Warren Castille - 10-16-2016
Not every trainer gives you their specific soulstone.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Caspar - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 06:13 PM)K Wrote: I don't understand why people are freaking out about a number as though it's somehow illogical. I also don't understand the sentiment that Dragoons "die easily" when that was obviously not the case considering that there are only about 30 in service at any one time and that was considered sufficient to get by through all those years of war up until the outright invasion at the climax which you're supposed to at least pretend to imagine was of a much larger scale than that presented in game - something more in line with that of the CGI I am sure."Freaking out" is an uncharitably strong way to put it, but it is probably shocking to a lot of players given that Square's been vague about the numbers up until now. It could legitimately be a tiny army in which case I wonder why there isn't full mobilization, with a radically different social structure within Ishgard, but at least under the condition of having a small military/population, it makes sense to have a tiny elite group as well.
Overall though, the way I see it is that if you're going to be intense about lore adherence, the same rules should apply to everyone, not just players who are fortunate enough to be well liked or play something favored by the majority. If the lore adherence is leading you towards not accepting characters you love and pushing you away from players you enjoy cooperating with, maybe it's time to re-evaluate your attitude towards the lore. Maybe some flexibility is in order, so that you can let things like this slide.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Teadrinker - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 06:58 PM)cleverFoxes Wrote:(10-16-2016, 06:54 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:(10-16-2016, 06:51 PM)cleverFoxes Wrote: Then the easy answer here is to say that your character was, at one point, a DRG. Because so long as you held a soulstone at some point and learned those skills, they stay with you. As is the case with all NPC trainers who pass on their stone to you. Just means that characters can't be actively serving Dragoons.
Ah, but therein lies the rub.
Does one keep Dragoon skills once they part with the Soulstone or do they go back to being a Lancer?
.....
The answer is Lancer but if someone wanted to RP it that way I'd probably shrug and look the other way as well.
If that were the case, though, every trainer NPC would become a 'gladiator' or 'marauder' after parting with their soulstone but we see that's clearly not the case. They retain their Job specific skills.
That starts boiling down into the unique lore of seperate jobs and would be a massive segway off topic.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Warren Castille - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 07:00 PM)Caspar Wrote:(10-16-2016, 06:13 PM)K Wrote: I don't understand why people are freaking out about a number as though it's somehow illogical. I also don't understand the sentiment that Dragoons "die easily" when that was obviously not the case considering that there are only about 30 in service at any one time and that was considered sufficient to get by through all those years of war up until the outright invasion at the climax which you're supposed to at least pretend to imagine was of a much larger scale than that presented in game - something more in line with that of the CGI I am sure."Freaking out" is an uncharitably strong way to put it, but it is probably shocking to a lot of players given that Square's been vague about the numbers up until now. It could legitimately be a tiny army in which case I wonder why there isn't full mobilization, with a radically different social structure within Ishgard, but at least under the condition of having a small military/population, it makes sense to have a tiny elite group as well.
The way I see it overall is that if you're going to be intense about lore adherence, the same rules should apply to everyone, not just players who are fortunate enough to be well liked or play something favored by the majority. If the lore adherence is leading you towards not accepting characters you love and pushing you away from players you enjoy cooperating with, maybe it's time to re-evaluate your attitude towards the lore. Maybe some flexibility is in order, so that you can let things like this slide.
I like this. There's asking for lore because you want it and then there's asking for lore you hope validates headcanon. It's okay for it to be both, but less good for it to just be the second thing.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Ciel - 10-16-2016
I suppose part of my point was that, regardless of getting into the Order, a lot of people tried and failed to be accepted. They still had training toward being a Dragoon. Call it a Lancer, effectively, if you wish, but there would have to be bodies readily available to backfill the ranks of Dragoons who've been killed or crippled in the line of duty.Â
If a Dragoon happens to die somewhere unfortunately, too, like picked up and dropped into a chasm somewhere which can't be easily traversed, it's unlikely that soul stone is going to be reclaimed. Trying to maintain the same number of soul stones at all times would be problematic. They would have to have others in case some fall beyond reach. This also doesn't mean the stone can't be somehow reclaimed by someone at another time.
I'm not saying to ignore the hard 30 of the Order, I'm not saying everyone gets a soul stone, but there are more people who have the training than the text would have us believe. There are ways to work around it.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Teadrinker - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 07:08 PM)Ciel Wrote: If a Dragoon happens to die somewhere unfortunately, too, like picked up and dropped into a chasm somewhere which can't be easily traversed, it's unlikely that soul stone is going to be reclaimed. Trying to maintain the same number of soul stones at all times would be problematic. They would have to have others in case some fall beyond reach. This also doesn't mean the stone can't be somehow reclaimed by someone at another time.
This is EXACTLY why Square Enix has massively dropped the ball by having this level of specificity just randomly for NO reason.
Now they are obligated to explain this.
"It is a very small, elite Order."Â Could have sufficed.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Melkire - 10-16-2016
Didn't read every post, but some folks have already pointed out the obvious:
The ten and thirty are specifically with regards to the Order of Knights Dragoon. Those are the dragoons in drachen mail who serve in what constitutes Ishgard's military.
It does not include the retired, such as Alberic.
It PROBABLY does not count the "lesser" dragoons at the Convictory.
It certainly does not count the most comparable example for RP purposes, the Warrior of Light.
In short: this changes little for the RP community, as there are many loopholes and workarounds so long as you avoid incorporating active service in present events for your character.
"I was taught the techniques by an Ishgardian against tradition, doctrine, orders, protocol, etc." is the easiest out.