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+--- Thread: General Lore Questions (/showthread.php?tid=4766)
RE: General Lore Questions - No Longer Exists - 10-24-2013
(10-23-2013, 11:24 PM)Goodfellow Wrote: Yeah, that all sounds reasonable. But if pretty much everything else in the lore relates to crystals and aether, I wonder if/how the elementals do as well. Maybe we'll get something in a lore-dump someday.
If I had to speculate? The Primals represent the devastating aspect of Elements and encroach on Eorzea from beyond (I'm not certain WHERE exactly) through influencing Tempered until they can be summoned into the realm to directly affect it. This brings to mind that they're something akin to invaders. Perhaps the Elementals of the Shroud are "Natural" (see: Actual Denizens) of Eorzea birthed in the early periods of the planet. I mention this because of the Patron Gods each character chooses when created must have influence over their purviews (Such as Nophica, who would be the overseer of the Shroud and therefore the elementals). Also, the sprites we see all over the world have no direct connection to the Primals. These Sprites would be minor Elementals, which to my mind means there are major Elementals and if there are major then there must be grand Elementals and finally the tip of the pyramid: a God.Â
Sprites are classified as spirits made of pure Aether.Â
As a side note, this all reminds me of the Greek pantheon. A group of Gods, command of elements, and a group of primordial beings seeking to claim dominion (The Titans).Â
Just a thought.
RE: General Lore Questions - Naunet - 10-24-2013
(10-23-2013, 10:52 PM)Ildur Wrote: So, in a way, you could say they -might- be Primals, but aren't considered such. The game implies they are just some kind of force of nature.
If you're Garlean, they're certainly no different from Primals (same with the gods)! And honestly, they make a convincing argument.
RE: General Lore Questions - Goodfellow - 10-28-2013
But sprites, while elementals, aren't the Elementals of the Gridanians/Twelveswood, are they? Are the Elementals more sort of formless representations?
And I'm still interested in Teuto's question.
Also, how do y'all tend to treat summons IC? Specifically with regards to proximity. For example, could a scholar send Selene off to run some errands? Or an arcanist give Carbuncle a letter to deliver? Might a summoner send Ifrit home to have dinner ready before she gets there? The mind boggles.
RE: General Lore Questions - Olofantur - 10-28-2013
(10-24-2013, 08:55 AM)Teuto Wrote: Sooo, what are the big glowing orange crystals dotted around the world? Are the remains of Bahamut's 'Make everything explode' spell, hunks of Dalamund, or something else?
Also, IIRC Ala Mhingo is under Garlean rule, so would it be much of rare sight to see Garlean patrols out in the eastern ends of the Shroud?
Orange stuff- Depends on where you're talking about, the wide world coming out of buildings and the big splash in La Noscea that has blue crystal around it? Bahamut likely enough, Mor Dhona? Agrias/Midgardsormer. Collapsed looking Aethryte? Long story, mixture of Atmos, beast tribes and all of the above.
The Garleans have patrols in the east shroud, you fight them off as part of a quest, and you can see Castrum Oriens from Amarissaixs' Spire in the East shroud.
(10-28-2013, 11:08 PM)Goodfellow Wrote: But sprites, while elementals, aren't the Elementals of the Gridanians/Twelveswood, are they? Are the Elementals more sort of formless representations?
And I'm still interested in Teuto's question.
Also, how do y'all tend to treat summons IC? Specifically with regards to proximity. For example, could a scholar send Selene off to run some errands? Or an arcanist give Carbuncle a letter to deliver? Might a summoner send Ifrit home to have dinner ready before she gets there? The mind boggles.
I see the Elementals as the "Living Wood" itself, the Trents that chase Papalymo and Yda upon your arrival in 1.0, the spirits (read physical elemental manifestations) that attack you during the conjury quest as part of "calming" them. I can provide some screen shots of the quest if you like, but its pretty spoiler heavy and a great story line to be honest.
I treat the Faeries/Carbuncles slightly differently, but largely benevolent. The Primal-Egi's would be malignant if you did not suppress them, so perhaps you could ask them to do some things, but trust them to do it? I wouldn't...
Hope that helps!
RE: General Lore Questions - K'dath - 10-29-2013
(10-28-2013, 11:08 PM)Goodfellow Wrote: Also, how do y'all tend to treat summons IC? Specifically with regards to proximity. For example, could a scholar send Selene off to run some errands? Or an arcanist give Carbuncle a letter to deliver? Might a summoner send Ifrit home to have dinner ready before she gets there? The mind boggles.
Are you just asking opinions? Or like, searching for hard rules backed up by lore? Because I'm not overly positive on the latter. Thusfar I haven't seen anything in game that seems to suggest summons travel far from their masters. Going by game mechanics they despawn after you get too far apart. I'd imagine that because the -egi are derived from the power of the primals, rather than independent deities as the primals themselves, they'd require the concentration and will of their masters to remain tangible. In fact, this seems to be backed up by the class description for Arcanists:
Quote:Accompanied by a familiar in battle, adepts of the art of arcanum derive their might from symbols of power born of geometric techniques hailing from across the southern seas. Held within special grimoires, these symbols lend shape to the arcanist's aether, thereby allowing them to produce a myriad of powerful spells.
Using magicked gemstones upon which the selfsame symbols are graven, arcanists are also able to summon forth the ephemeral being Carbuncle to carry out their bidding.
As for me, opinion wise, it's never come up in RP. K'dath utilizes each one differently, as according to their talents, and regards his -egi as weapons. He basically follows the ol' samurai sword code 'Don't unsheathe it if you don't mean to use it'. Carbuncle is the exception. Since Carbuncle is refereed to as a 'familiar' I treat it more like a traditional familiar in RP; as a companion animal who's natural affinity for magic lends to his master's. His nickname is Carter, and he likes ear scritchies.
It's my personal head canon that, while all -egis would be similar because they are pulled from the same power source, that Carbuncle, due to being individually shaped, are all different. I wouldn't mean to imply that is necessarily correct in terms of lore though, it's just my own though.
RE: General Lore Questions - Vairemont Malveaux - 10-29-2013
There wasn't much explanation in the arcanist quest as to what Carbuncle is. It's just like, "Go kill these dudes. And hey, don't forget your Carbuncle."
In the previous games, of course, Carbuncle is a summon/eidolon/GF/eikon as much as Ifrit and Shiva and the others. However here, the primals/eikons exist as aethereal energy until the beast tribes gather aether crystals and summon them as their gods. Unlike the primals, Carbuncle requires no crystals to sustain itself, coming into form and dispersing at the arcanist's will.
What I've noticed, and this is solely my own speculation, is that Summon and Summon II have two different animations. Summon seems to call upon the air element, looking not dissimilar from air sprites. Summon II has floating stones in the animation, suggesting the earth element.
Going with the arcanist theme of nigh mathematics, it's my guess that Carbuncle is a sort of construct, like an avatar of the elements crafted by the arcanist. Probably made of aetheric energy like the primals, but bound to the arcanist's will.
Question is whether it has its own consciousness. There's art in the lodestone of a carbuncle stealing its master's quill. Could be it has some sentience, as aetheric energy is arguably alive, or it's a pseudo-independent extension of the arcanist's own will.
Or the artist just drew it because it was cute.
RE: General Lore Questions - Ildur - 10-29-2013
According to the info snippet describing Arcanists in the webby (as quoted by K'dath), the Arcanists need to inscribe gemstones to be able to summon Carbuncle. I'd assume that both summoners and scholars require a similar technique to do the same with their own creatures. I do not think they consume it, though. They are more likely used as catalysts for the wizard's own aetheric gauge (what mechanically we know as 'mana').
If I had to speculate as to what Carbuncles are, I'd say they are probably some kind of aetherical manifestation of mathematics/geometry. Based on the Scholar's questline, where the fairy is shown to have a personality of her own (kinda), I'd argue that this could very well be the case with Carbuncles. The egis probably do, too, based on whatever Primal they are based on. For example, titan-egi, in a cutscene, appears and blocks a magical attack with his face without you actually ordering him so. This implies that, just like Titan, the egi is kind of protective of those he recognizes as 'part of his team', so to speak.
As to what the Elementals with a capital E are, they are basically spirits that excersise power upon the Black Shroud. Unlike the sprites, they can communicate in some way to certain conjurers (called Hearers), who basically act as priests (or maybe envoys) of their will. You can see a Hearer in the Aetheryte plaza, with a bunch of people sitting around, listening to him.
Elementals also have a crapton more of implied power than any sprite. What the Elemental really are is never touched. Think of them as a very strict Mother Nature.
Finally, the big glowing crystals you see dotting many of the landscapes are crystallized aether. The places that were hit the hardest by Bahamut's megaflare (or whatever that thing he did was called) present those formations.
Though some of them could have a different story but, as far as I could tell, they were all caused by the Calamity.
RE: General Lore Questions - K'dath - 10-29-2013
(10-29-2013, 02:06 AM)Ildur Wrote: According to the info snippet describing Arcanists in the webby (as quoted by K'dath), the Arcanists need to inscribe gemstones to be able to summon Carbuncle. I'd assume that both summoners and scholars require a similar technique to do the same with their own creatures. I do not think they consume it, though. They are more likely used as catalysts for the wizard's own aetheric gauge (what mechanically we know as 'mana').
If I had to speculate as to what Carbuncles are, I'd say they are probably some kind of aetherical manifestation of mathematics/geometry. Based on the Scholar's questline, where the fairy is shown to have a personality of her own (kinda), I'd argue that this could very well be the case with Carbuncles. The egis probably do, too, based on whatever Primal they are based on. For example, titan-egi, in a cutscene, appears and blocks a magical attack with his face without you actually ordering him so. This implies that, just like Titan, the egi is kind of protective of those he recognizes as 'part of his team', so to speak.
Well, in the Summoner storyline:
The use of geometry is sorta hand waved in favor of history. The casting animation stays consistent though, incorporating writing in the grimiore, so perhaps the ritual is 'simplified' into the same type of inscriptions. Or maybe they just though making different animations for the same spell was a waste of time.
What I meant with being 'individualized' more or less had more to do with the somewhat lack of 'proper' elaboration as to why any novice could conjure one, coupled with the external mention of gemstones. I assume there's a definitive 'right' way to summon Carbuncle (a geometric pattern) but do not nessicarily come from a uniform source. They're like raw aether being pulled from the air and given a shape according to some guide lines. On top of that gemstones are not uniform. They have different facets and flaws, no two truly similar. Assuming the novice hand-carves them, they have an 'intimate' touch to them as well. (It's a spiritualist belief that hand made things have the essence or spirit energy of the one that makes them. Not that that's necessarily relevant to the lore... just.. you know, explaining my personal insight.) And then we have variable wills. That's a BIG theme in the Arcanist story, that your will defines your reality. Altogether I think it's sensible to think Carbuncle could have an aspect of individuality to them. It's plausible, as the very least.
I can't speak about the fairies (yet) but the -egi all come from a particular power source, the primals specifically. All -egis are an aspect of their respective primal and are summoned, as noted above, by a specific ritual. There are already rules for how to isolate and call up this power. It's very uniform and exact. It's effectively summoning a really tiny, neutered primal. I'd expect it to behave as much and to do so consistently. All Ifrit-egi are the same Ifrit-egi. All Titan-egi are the same Titan-egi. etc. The only reason they would act differently is when directly influenced by a summoner.
(10-29-2013, 01:11 AM)Larsonient Wrote: What I've noticed, and this is solely my own speculation, is that Summon and Summon II have two different animations. Summon seems to call upon the air element, looking not dissimilar from air sprites. Summon II has floating stones in the animation, suggesting the earth element.
It's probably because the animators are lazy and re-used the exact same animations later on. I don't think Carbuncle is really affiliated with air.
Also, aetheric energy being sentient on its own accord may be more of a philosophical quandary more than a mechanical one. Aether is sort of like the life force of the planet itself. I won't drone on anymore about it, especially because that way lays rife with spoilers and speculation, but it's something to dwell on.
RE: General Lore Questions - Goodfellow - 11-20-2013
It's that time again! More questions! Now, we're likely veering off into the undeveloped (or underdeveloped, at least) and speculatory, but let's do it.
I'm much more up on the lore these days, but one thing I'm still having trouble with is the relationship between the aether and religion. Bear with me as I lead you nose-first through my thought process here.
I feel like I remember (during the explanation of the aetherytes, maybe) that physical bodies come from aether and eventually return to aether (magical decomposition?) and as such we can temporarily jump in and out of the Lifestream to teleport/return. And maybe I'm making this up, but I think there are implications that our souls are also aether-based, but then they move on to the afterlife, i.e. Thal's realm.
We also know from the threat of the Primals that the aether/Lifestream is finite, or at least doesn't renew quickly enough to keep up with the drain of the Primals. So if we are composed of aether and only 50% of that aether (our bodies, not our souls) returns to the Lifestream after we die, doesn't that imply that the whole system of life and death on Hydaelyn is unsustainable? Or am I missing or misinterpreting something?
Short version:
People in Hydaelyn are bodies (physical aether) + souls (non-physical aether), but only our bodies (physical aether) returns to the Lifestream when we die. So doesn't that produce a sort of terminal aether half-life which will eventually exhaust the Lifestream, regardless of the Primals?
RE: General Lore Questions - Ildur - 11-20-2013
There are three problems I can see with your interpretation of the "aether cycle".
First: there's nothing implying that "physical aether" does not go back to the lifestream, in that scenario. Dead bodies are eventually destroyed (either by decomposition or other means), so once that happens, the aether that was in that body should go back to the Lifestream too. It's just not an immediate process.
Second: it is never specified that the aether is divided 50/50 between soul and body. Maybe the ratio is 99/1. Or 999/1. We don't really know, and dividing it on a 50/50 ratio is just arbitrary. So it is very possible that whatever aether goes into forming a body is meaningless compared to the aether needed for a soul. This could mean that the aether is eventually recovered, or that maybe it doesn't really leave the system since, again, bodies decompose and whatever matter was in them is absorbed by the enviorement.
Third: Maybe the aether needed for making a normal soul/body isn't significant at all in the grand scheme of things. Maybe the aether "lost" by the death of normal living creatures is like a natural evaporation on a pool of water. You might be losing water, but it's so slow and minimal that it doesn't really matter.
Primals, on the other hand, consume large ammounts of aether to manifest. So a primal summoning isn't like evaporation: it's someone with a bucket stealing the pool's water and dumping it into a lava pit. It might take him a long, long time to deplete the water, but it will happen much faster than if you let the pool be and evaporate on its own.
RE: General Lore Questions - Goodfellow - 11-20-2013
(11-20-2013, 01:11 PM)Ildur Wrote: There are three problems I can see with your interpretation of the "aether cycle".
First: there's nothing implying that "physical aether" does not go back to the lifestream, in that scenario. Dead bodies are eventually destroyed (either by decomposition or other means), so once that happens, the aether that was in that body should go back to the Lifestream too. It's just not an immediate process.
Second: it is never specified that the aether is divided 50/50 between soul and body. Maybe the ratio is 99/1. Or 999/1. We don't really know, and dividing it on a 50/50 ratio is just arbitrary. So it is very possible that whatever aether goes into forming a body is meaningless compared to the aether needed for a soul. This could mean that the aether is eventually recovered, or that maybe it doesn't really leave the system since, again, bodies decompose and whatever matter was in them is absorbed by the enviorement.
Third: Maybe the aether needed for making a normal soul/body isn't significant at all in the grand scheme of things. Maybe the aether "lost" by the death of normal living creatures is like a natural evaporation on a pool of water. You might be losing water, but it's so slow and minimal that it doesn't really matter.
Primals, on the other hand, consume large ammounts of aether to manifest. So a primal summoning isn't like evaporation: it's someone with a bucket stealing the pool's water and dumping it into a lava pit. It might take him a long, long time to deplete the water, but it will happen much faster than if you let the pool be and evaporate on its own.
Thanks for the input. Firstly, it was actually the soul that I assumed did not return to the Lifestream, but instead moved to "Thal's realm," unless that is a euphemism for the Lifestream.
And yes, the 50/50 split was arbitrary. I just was throwing some numbers together to help myself visualize and organize my thoughts.
And maybe the aether loss is insignificant in the short term, but I'm being really speculative and saying that if it does work in a manner akin to what I'm proposing, be it in a hundred, thousand, or million years, it will exhaust itself and collapse. Of course, if the aether does "renew" in some form, then the loss attributable to the planet's natural life cycle could very well be negligible and thus would be a non-issue, as you posited.
It's probably underdeveloped and we clearly don't have all the pertinent information, it's just something that occurred to me from the information I had gathered and I wanted to know what the community thought about it.
RE: General Lore Questions - S'anhu - 11-20-2013
I can't find it now (though I haven't looked too much into it) but I think I remember a question about how teleportation actually works. I'll also have to go back and rewatch some of the Titan cutscenes where Y'shtola explains it.
Basically what someone suggested was that when it happens our bodies are transformed into the raw aether and rejoin the Lifestream (as you mentioned). But how do we know where to go? Our souls then guide the part of the Lifestream that's still us to the desired aetherite and then we reform.
So perhaps the souls aren't necessarily a part of the "aether cycle" but instead some sort of separate entity? Not sure on this one, because I haven't gotten the vibe that souls are aether-based. That could just be that I'm not far enough in the storyline, though.
RE: General Lore Questions - Goodfellow - 11-20-2013
(11-20-2013, 01:55 PM)S Wrote: So perhaps the souls aren't necessarily a part of the "aether cycle" but instead some sort of separate entity? Not sure on this one, because I haven't gotten the vibe that souls are aether-based. That could just be that I'm not far enough in the storyline, though.
That's a good point. Maybe souls exist apart from the aether cycle. Everything else lore-wise is so heavy on the aether that I may have just been making an undue assumption or filling in the blanks incorrectly.
RE: General Lore Questions - Ildur - 11-20-2013
It could be that the soul is a metaphysical entity,. If you think about it, aether is a very physical thing. It can be measured and you can create devices that let you 'see' it (like the googles the Scions wear). Souls, however, cannot be seen or measured. Though there are some enemies called "souls" that appear in ruins or areas where the dead would be. I don't think it's ever mentioned if these 'soul' creatures are really souls or just some kind of monster that just happens to be called that.
It would also explain why an afterlife (Thal's realm) can exist along with the idea of the ever recycling Lifestream: aether is what makes the physical realm possible, but isn't linked to the metaphysical. It also explains why the Primals need it to manifest or why their manifestations would eventually kill the planet: they are literally eating on the substance of physical reality.
RE: General Lore Questions - Goodfellow - 01-18-2014
In keeping with current RPC vogue, I've got a question about the Elementals. Â I didn't want to derail the fine discussion thread about their nature, though, so I'm resurrecting this thread.Â
I didn't play 1.0, nor have I done all Gridania's quests or the whole CNJ/WHM line, so maybe this is all answered in there somewhere.Â
So do the Elementals ever evidence themselves individually or are they collective beings? Â And if they do appear as individuals, do they have names? Â Would a SL dealing with one Hearer and their Elemental buddy have legs?Â
Thanks!