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+--- Thread: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way (/showthread.php?tid=9930)
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - C'kayah Polaali - 02-04-2015
(02-04-2015, 12:14 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I wonder, is it possible to go too far the other way, too? I ask because I might fall into that camp at times. Though it might just be general worry about the other person in general.
Basically, I mean that you worry so much about trying to keep things friendly and cordial that you're tempted to continually double-check with the other person to make sure everything's cool. I haven't quite hit the point where I had a character be really mean to someone IC and immediately follow it with a stream of "IMSORRYIMSORRYIMSORRY *hugs*" OOCly (possibly due to Chachan's generally friendly nature)... but it does feel like something I would honestly do.
Along with that is a sort of... after-the-fact doubt? You did something with someone, it's over and done with, but you keep wondering if it was okay. If they were okay with it, and if everything's still cool all around. My best example of this was a training session for Chachan with Sei... I got all caught up in the choreographing aspect of free-form combat since I hadn't done it in a while. Sei rightfully pointed out I was no-selling her character's attacks, and I immediately tried to over-sell to compensate. And afterward I STILL felt real bad about it.
I have a lot of fun RPing with everyone and I want them to have fun too... and the chance that I might ruin that or overstep my boundaries worries me to no end at times.
Usually if a scene is heading in a dark direction (a fight, robbery, etc), I'll pause things for a brief conversation about what's okay and what's not okay. To avoid continually re-checking, I'll throw something in about saying something if anything goes too far. The best way to think of it is like a safe word: It's an established out for when things go to far.
What you're talking about here, Chach, is more of a RP etiquette thing, and that gets a little more fuzzy. Sei, in your example, felt that you weren't taking hits that you should have, and you agreed. It's cut and dried. It gets a little harder to work with if it's less black and white: What if Sei said you should be taking hits that you didn't think you should be taking. That's a source for a longer conversation, I think, but there are always going to be unresolvable differences there. Especially in conflict, there are people who simply can't bear the thought of their character's losing.
With conflict RP of any sort, you really, really have to trust the people you're RPing with if you do it freeform. You have to trust their (and your) commitment to the story, and trust that whatever they do they do for the benefit of the story. If you can't, that's a sign you should suggest using some sort of randomizer to resolve things. This doesn't just apply to combat, it could apply anywhere.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Dimona - 02-04-2015
(02-04-2015, 12:14 PM)Gegenji Wrote: Basically, I mean that you worry so much about trying to keep things friendly and cordial that you're tempted to continually double-check with the other person to make sure everything's cool. I haven't quite hit the point where I had a character be really mean to someone IC and immediately follow it with a stream of "IMSORRYIMSORRYIMSORRY *hugs*" OOCly (possibly due to Chachan's generally friendly nature)... but it does feel like something I would honestly do.
I fall into this camp a lot. Â Dimmy can be really brusque and lacks a lot of basic manners and when someone does take notice of her IC her gut reaction is suspicion and her words are often defensive and she very readily shoots from the hip. Â She also frowns on certain behaviors that are pretty common amongst many RPers as well. Â Not to say she doesn't warm up to people slowly over a span of time, but with some people I do find myself sending a little OOC whisper to say I'm really a nice person and that Dimmy is just being Dimmy and maybe one day she'll learn to be a little more polite.
I wage that little battle with not wanting to break anyone's sense of immersion and wanting to be perfectly clear that it's the character who is socially and intellectually inept, and not me as the player!
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - ArmachiA - 02-05-2015
(02-04-2015, 12:00 PM)Zhavi Wrote: => Try your damndest not to hold other peoples' choices with their characters against them. Even if you feel they are breaking [insert unspoken social rule or bit of rp etiquette or setting rule here], the only character you have full control over is your own.
Not gonna lie, I tend to get very vocal about ONE thing that I hate more than anything - characters falling in love within the week. It's mostly because every single person who has caused drama for me in RP tried to push romance too fast and either got upset that I took it off the table or, in my earlier years, it raised a red flag but I let it continue and then it blew up in my face. When I see two people roleplaying their characters as in love or closely bonded after a week, I get really, really agitated and feel like they only want RP romance. I can even tolerate blatant lore breaking more than that and I generally don't even WANT to rp with people who I find out doing it.
I know this makes me kind of a bad person, it's not any of my business at the end of the day and I'm really vocal about it, but I'm trying to hold my tongue more. On that I actually do have to take a step back and breath. Regardless whether or not I'm right in the end, these people are adults and after my initial vocalizing my distaste I need to let it go.
Working on it. Even I am human XD
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Enla - 02-05-2015
(02-05-2015, 06:59 AM)ArmachiA Wrote:I'm kind of in the same boat, though I have had characters just outright take the choice out from under my feet before. To the point where my RP partner and I just had to stop back and ask each other what just happened because neither of us expected it. Oddly enough the only truly lasting 'romance' I've had in those veins morphed into an enduring friendship more than anything else - particularly because my RP partner's character just doesn't understand the concept of romantic love. Affection and lust to a certain degree, and he definitely understands and embodies the concepts of familial love, but he's about as emotionally constipated as they get while still being horrifically squishy. He and my character are still unbelievably cute together and have several children, but it isn't a typical romance because if pressed to describe why he loves my character he'd get a blank look upon his face as the concept just does not compute. Like at all, and often to hilarious effect. Which, on the flip side, my character adores about him. They're a bit of an odd couple though.(02-04-2015, 12:00 PM)Zhavi Wrote: => Try your damndest not to hold other peoples' choices with their characters against them. Even if you feel they are breaking [insert unspoken social rule or bit of rp etiquette or setting rule here], the only character you have full control over is your own.
Not gonna lie, I tend to get very vocal about ONE thing that I hate more than anything - characters falling in love within the week. It's mostly because every single person who has caused drama for me in RP tried to push romance too fast and either got upset that I took it off the table or, in my earlier years, it raised a red flag but I let it continue and then it blew up in my face. When I see two people roleplaying their characters as in love or closely bonded after a week, I get really, really agitated and feel like they only want RP romance. I can even tolerate blatant lore breaking more than that and I generally don't even WANT to rp with people who I find out doing it.
I know this makes me kind of a bad person, it's not any of my business at the end of the day and I'm really vocal about it, but I'm trying to hold my tongue more. On that I actually do have to take a step back and breath. Regardless whether or not I'm right in the end, these people are adults and after my initial vocalizing my distaste I need to let it go.
Working on it. Even I am human XD
Personally I don't much begrudge people for RPing whirlwind romances, it's their right and I'd be a hypocrite otherwise given the fact that it's happened with me in the past. I just much --much-- prefer slow burns, but I can see where other people wouldn't. Personally if things go too fast I tend to slam the proverbial breaks and back out of it, because like you pointed out it has bit me as well in the past. Particularly when I don't screen who I roleplay with. The above RP partner had been a good friend for months before we put those two characters together, and I trusted them to respect my boundaries. It's... Harder with new people though, and like the theme of this particular thread communication is utterly key. All that said, I don't think it makes you a bad person for having an opinion.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Parvacake - 02-05-2015
(02-04-2015, 12:00 PM)Zhavi Wrote: => Try your damndest not to hold other peoples' choices with their characters against them. Â Even if you feel they are breaking [insert unspoken social rule or bit of rp etiquette or setting rule here], the only character you have full control over is your own.I love this so hard you have no idea.
I've had my characters do things other people don't like. Why? Because it's what the character would do. I'm playing something that is not an extension of myself nor ever meant to be. The only time I have ever made such an exception is in certain RP with my boyfriend or my other significant others in the past who were RP partners. Even then, there was still a huge limit on the leeway I would allow.
Probably the biggest source of drama I ever had in this game (and seen others go through) was over the above, and it's one that I keep watch over to make sure it doesn't happen in my FC like it's happened to me. It's a kind of IC/OOC blending that most people don't even realize they're doing, and is even trickier at times to point out.
The most I'll do is maybe make a comment or chat about it because it's interesting. Like if someone's toon kills/maims/harms/dislikes/etc. another's. I'd rather chat about it then get upset over it xD
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Parvacake - 02-05-2015
(02-04-2015, 12:14 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I wonder, is it possible to go too far the other way, too? I ask because I might fall into that camp at times. Though it might just be general worry about the other person in general.
Basically, I mean that you worry so much about trying to keep things friendly and cordial that you're tempted to continually double-check with the other person to make sure everything's cool. I haven't quite hit the point where I had a character be really mean to someone IC and immediately follow it with a stream of "IMSORRYIMSORRYIMSORRY *hugs*" OOCly (possibly due to Chachan's generally friendly nature)... but it does feel like something I would honestly do.
Along with that is a sort of... after-the-fact doubt? You did something with someone, it's over and done with, but you keep wondering if it was okay. If they were okay with it, and if everything's still cool all around. My best example of this was a training session for Chachan with Sei... I got all caught up in the choreographing aspect of free-form combat since I hadn't done it in a while. Sei rightfully pointed out I was no-selling her character's attacks, and I immediately tried to over-sell to compensate. And afterward I STILL felt real bad about it.
I have a lot of fun RPing with everyone and I want them to have fun too... and the chance that I might ruin that or overstep my boundaries worries me to no end at times.
I sometimes have to remind myself to not be so closed off. I usually forget to check in on things unless I sense there might be an issue or if the other person happens to comment on something. The most I've usually done is the occasional small talk mixed with "hello/goodmorning/goodnight/thankyoufortheRP" type stuff.
Best thing to do is take a deep breath
With a character like Chachan I doubt it's something you'll need to worry much about.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Knight Kat - 02-05-2015
So, I hope it's not off-topic to kinda ask questions for people to respond to and think about rather than give answers. I don't think things are always so cut and dry.
What happens when two characters in the same group (Group of friends or small FC) can't ICly get along for a vast majority of the time? At what point does constant conflict between specific two characters (or two parties of characters) ruin a story?
For example, in the x-men moves (plz forgive this reference) Cyclops and Wolverine are rivals. In the scenes they are in, they never get along and always look like they are on the verge of fighting. Movies run on a scrip though; RP usually doesn't. What if 90% of the movie turned into Cyclops VS Wolverine with all characters on the sidelines just sighing and face-palming? Would that have made a good movie?
Well, one answer I would expect is for the players to OOCly discuss it. But what if the players of the rival characters each OOCly feel their own character is justified in their IC actions and reactions?
IMHO, that is when separation is in order. But what if that causes plotting and story to become overly complicated, or makes it so separation is impossible because the group all wants to do things together? Who gets left out?
If one of the rivals has to be removed from the group; thus, removing them from some or all RP with the group as a whole, how do you tell a person getting removed (who thinks their character is in the right) why their character is being removed without upsetting them OOC?
I have witnessed scenarios like this actually happen several times. This can actually ruin the RP progression and story of a group. An endless conflict and popularity contest may be fun for some, but most I have talked to find it not fun at all.
In my RP, my character is either contributing to her own story, or the story of some other character. If my character is being a chronic disruption to another character's story, I find an IC reason to remove her from it unless asked otherwise. Even if I feel my character is in the right, I can accept that others may not agree, and be willing to make it so she is no longer a major element or problem. However, some may see this as bending a character, and I might be hard-pressed to argue with them. But I am RPing to develop a good story, and help others develop a good story. If someone feels my character is not helping with that, I am not offended to be told such. The problem is, what if I feel I have to tell someone else that? How do I do so without upsetting them, or making them think I am leaking IC into OOC?
If this is too off-topic, I'll gladly make a separate thread about it.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Askier - 02-05-2015
((Pardon the jumble of words, running on an hour of sleep -.- ))
I don't think your question is off topic at all, Kat.
I enjoyed thinking on it personally. And have to admit your x-men example can fit into a personal example, one you were breifly part of.
Background: At one point in time Askier and Osric and Kahn'a IC had a falling out that left him literally stabbing Kahn'a, who at the time had really been one of Askier's few friends. This conflict was delightful, honestly we had fun, but I honestly could feel myself almost pushing too much with the version Askier I was currently portaying.
Now certainly there wasn't a point where I got my feelings hurt because I know Osric and Kahn'a ooc well enough but it escalated to the point where I needed to remove Askier for IC reasons, and also to prevent his anger from become the all consuming and focal point of the Red Wings rp events by his volitile actions and had him leave for a time and use the distance as a sort of releif valve to make Askier more of a background rp than a focal point.
Point of the above story is that, indeed it does happen, because we really are just side characters in another's story save our own, and we need to remember that.
If we try to be the main hero in every story, eventually we gonna get our feelings stepped on and there are some people who rp that don't understand that because they are either to new to rp, or simply too consumed with themselves because they put to much of themselves into their character by accident because, in the end, the characters we made are a part of us because they are totally our creation.
Thats why some people slip by accident, especially when they first start rping, because people often put parts of themselves into their character. I am even guilty of it. I put too much of me into Askier when I first made him and was brand new to rp. That's why, in my mind, I think Jin'li is the better of my two created characters because with Askier, half the time I'm just responding as I would, while with Jin'li, I am so far out of my comfort zone with normal behaviour I feel lost. I feel as if I am truly an author creating something alien to myself. And that's how it should be to avoid ooc/ic bled.
The other thing people have to be careful with, and I see this alot, is the mindset that says: "Oh this isn't me, its my character". ERP is a feild I've seen this with alot and I have a conflict over it to a certain degree when its hand waved casually. People say its just for the character but, YOU put the character into that situation. You are not an actor reading lines, you WROTE the character crawling into bed and no matter how much you try to be objective, it is something intimate, even to that character and when you engage in that level of intimacy by choice, whether in character or not, there is going to be a certain bond there mentally that is going to be all to easy for someone to misinterpret. Even if both people agree OOC that this is only in character and not between them, the bleed is VERY possible. I've seen it before. An in character romance bleed over even though both parties knew it was IC and not ooc.
But, and here's a little twist that I'm going to toss out there for contemplation:
Is OOC/IC necesacrily a bad thing? If a legitimate relationship between two people forms based on the actions of their characters, do we still have a negative conotation to it? Because, normally the impression of bleed is negative but does it have to be?
If the above question is to de-railing, I can remove it but the opinions here were very good and was interested.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Parvacake - 02-05-2015
(02-05-2015, 08:47 AM)Knight Kat Wrote: What happens when two characters in the same group (Group of friends or small FC) can't ICly get along for a vast majority of the time? At what point does constant conflict between specific two characters (or two parties of characters) ruin a story?Ahhh this is a good one!
For example, in the x-men moves (plz forgive this reference) Cyclops and Wolverine are rivals. In the scenes they are in, they never get along and always look like they are on the verge of fighting. Movies run on a scrip though; RP usually doesn't. What if 90% of the movie turned into Cyclops VS Wolverine with all characters on the sidelines just sighing and face-palming? Would that have made a good movie?
Well, one answer I would expect is for the players to OOCly discuss it. But what if the players of the rival characters each OOCly feel their own character is justified in their IC actions and reactions?
IMHO, that is when separation is in order. But what if that causes plotting and story to become overly complicated, or makes it so separation is impossible because the group all wants to do things together? Who gets left out?
If one of the rivals has to be removed from the group; thus, removing them from some or all RP with the group as a whole, how do you tell a person getting removed (who thinks their character is in the right) why their character is being removed without upsetting them OOC?
Tbh? Both parties need to understand that as justified as everything may feel, that what is going on is starting to cause problems. It's not a 'no, it's their fault' situation: BOTH parties are causing problems IC (and even OOC to a degree) with that kind of conflict.
Either something is done about it, or they continue on with this understanding that there are consequences. Most RPers I meet in this game are older then I am (22), so treating this in a very adult manner is more then acceptable.
That manner being: something's got to give. Either figure out what with yourself or each other, or something else will give out for the both of you.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Bopdoot - 02-05-2015
I agree for the most part with the general consensus, except for oooone thang .. and maybe it's just me!
I personally don't have anything against "self insert" in games. I mean I constantly do that in single player games because I love being immersed in a story!
And I 100% admit that I like playing an aspiring musician who happens to like to physically exert herself for the sake of training because these are things I can bring an actual knowledge to in RP. With as casual an RPer as I can be (casual as in, I don't always invest a lot of time into for IRL busy life scheduling reasons) it's easy for me to settle into a familiar role that I don't have to study for hours on how to RP it correctly. So I guess I just have more fun, personally, to RP something I know a lot about.
For a "real world" example: an old friend from GW2 RP liked to RP being a doctor because she was actually a DR IRL. It made "Dr" RP with her really immersive and genuine.
That being said, I don't act like my characters ARE me. I'm not going to get personally offended if someone says blonde girls with blue eyes are the ugliest thing on the planet.
Forgive me if someone already said something along these lines, I kinda just skimmed
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Kamome - 02-06-2015
There's a wealth of wisdom here. I want to reiterate Flickering Ember in saying we all self-insert and fulfill wishes in some fashion with RP. The first step in making creative RP versus self-insert RP is feeling that in yourself. Be honest with yourself, and suddenly you will find yourself seeing your character as more and more a separate entity.Â
First off, I am a firm believer in "write what you know". In my experience, you are going to be /more/ at risk of getting stuck in the cycle of "what would I do in this situation?" RP if you don't know where your inspiration is coming from. For me, personally, it usually takes a couple read-throughs of my character's biography/wiki to pick out where I am deriving from.Â
Your character is never going to be 100% original. Nothing creative is. Your first task as a creator is acknowledging those influences for yourself. Those influences might come from media, your own life, or people you know. My character Kamome, for example, I figured out after a few read-throughs, is heavily based on my maternal grandmother who immigrated to the U.S. from Korea in the 50s. My character Yvane somehow ended up vaguely similar to a friend of mine from the 9th grade who left a really strong impression on me. The first step in making a living, breathing character is identifying where your subconscious is drawing them from. You can work to further define them from there.
Secondly, /do/ make a self-insert character. When I decide to RP in an MMO, this is the first thing I do. I ask myself: "what would I be if I were living in ______?" I think almost everyone thinks about this on some level, and if you're going to get it out of your subconscious, take a good long look at it! Then, simply don't play that character. I have a Dunesfolk in my character roster who is my Eorzean self, and I keep her there to remind me of that. :D
Third, do lots of writing! Nothing makes RP more of a creative process versus self-insertion than serious writing. Lore research also does it for me. It gives me perspective of how the world actually works and exists in its own space, and suddenly everything seems more like a different world and other characters become chatacters, not actual people. The people behind the characters become more distinct.
RP--learning how to RP--is continuous. We can always improve. We can always tell better stories! Always strive to better your RP--in the process I think you will learn a lot about yourself and about how you creatively express yourself. Over the past ten years, I have grown a lot as an RPer and a person, by thinking about my RP. :)
And just be awesome to your friends. And even more awesome and patient with people who make you mad. A lot of the time they are dealing with some pretty dark stuff IRL. OOC hug breaks can change a lot. :D
Edit: added a sort-of conclusion? xD
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Faye - 02-06-2015
(02-05-2015, 11:55 PM)Bopdoot Wrote: I agree for the most part with the general consensus, except for oooone thang .. and maybe it's just me!
I personally don't have anything against "self insert" in games. I mean I constantly do that in single player games because I love being immersed in a story!
And I 100% admit that I like playing an aspiring musician who happens to like to physically exert herself for the sake of training because these are things I can bring an actual knowledge to in RP. With as casual an RPer as I can be (casual as in, I don't always invest a lot of time into for IRL busy life scheduling reasons) it's easy for me to settle into a familiar role that I don't have to study for hours on how to RP it correctly. So I guess I just have more fun, personally, to RP something I know a lot about.
For a "real world" example: an old friend from GW2 RP liked to RP being a doctor because she was actually a DR IRL. It made "Dr" RP with her really immersive and genuine.
That being said, I don't act like my characters ARE me. I'm not going to get personally offended if someone says blonde girls with blue eyes are the ugliest thing on the planet.
Forgive me if someone already said something along these lines, I kinda just skimmed
There's nothing inherently wrong with self-inserts. I'm still 100% against it personally, but people are free to do whatever with their characters. The only problems are:
1. Someone playing a self-insert may be more likely to take thing involving their character too personally.
2. Someone playing a self-insert may be more likely to assume other RPers do the same and lump another player's character and RL personality into the same entity.
As long as these two things are avoided (though I've never seen it entirely happen) there's absolutely no problem. But it's not necessarily when self-inserts are criticized about physical traits that people get upset. It's usually when someone points out a flaw in the character's personality or actions, since the person behind the character would typically have the same personality or choose the same action in any situation.
Part of playing a character is understanding and embracing their flaws. That's a little difficult for most people to do objectively when their character's flaws are their own. Some people are kinda conceited and blind to their own flaws (the more likely for someone playing a self-insert), or dwell on their flaws and see no positive in themselves. Basically, it's hard to look at yourself without some bias, be it good or bad.
And just to clarify, by self-inserts I don't mean a character with a few similar traits to yourself. That's natural, actually a good thing, and probably inevitable. I mean a "it-would-be-really-cool-if-I-were-a-Miqo'te-and-lived-in-Eorzea" character.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Kamome - 02-06-2015
Also.
Take this!
http://www.springhole.net/writing/marysue.htm
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - Caspar - 02-06-2015
I kinda wrecked a campaign unintentionally by playing my character as faithfully to the idea I came up with as possible. Needless to say, I'm sort of sensitive to the idea of IC/OOC bleed causing people to get offended. I apologized a lot during that game and yet it didn't really make a difference. I think the other players felt threatened because I was playing very close to the lore and they wanted to do their own thing. I feel that I wasn't in the wrong, but even so, in future cases like this, I somewhat feel pressured to adjust my character as necessary to not cause unnecessary conflict.
Since it isn't FFXIV related, I spoiler the anecdote.
RE: The IC/OOC boundary and how to approach it the SMILE way - g0ne - 02-06-2015
I'm really happy lots of people gave so much valuable insight. Thank you everyone, you're all awesome, hats off.Â
On the self insert thing, and Mary Sueism, I try to make my characters as grounded and realistic as possible. Also, self insert has never been my thing. I just like to make up characters and then make a story for them. :3
And yes, people can have a tendency to grow attached to their character, and I suppose that's normal and understandable, but try not to get -too- attached, it sort of blurs the IC OOC boundary, and it lets your emotions seep into the RP. For example, if your character is hurt by some other character, you kind of unintentionally let your emotions dictate your character's behaviour. To be honest, Eleni is a dear character of mine, but just because she has an issue with some person does not mean I do. And just because she may fall in love certainly does not mean I will. XD
I suppose the same can apply for self inserts as well. But, I'm not against anything, I just try to enjoy Eleni's story.
On the note of people judging people based on their characters, I have two good examples I'd like to share.Â
*spoliers for The Last of Us, do not read the first example if you have not finished that game*
1. David from The Last of Us. Played by Nolan North. Now, when you first meet David, he seems like a nice guy, agrees to help Ellie, and even helps her through an Infected Horde. Then he turns out to be one hell of an asshole, cannibalistic and crazy. So, you can never judge a character based on one appearance. Secondly, Nolan North is known for a lot of other memorable roles as well, would you call him crazy and evil just because he voiced David?
2. The Joker. Played by Heath Ledger. No spoilers for this one because, hey, who doesn't know the Joker, and I'm pretty sure every one has seen The Dark Knight. Now, we all know the Joker is a lunatic, perhaps the baddest of baddies in comic books. The things he has done to scar Batman are numerous. But, would you say Heath Ledger was the same just because he played him?Â
Bottom line, do not judge a person based on their character. IC and OOC are two completely different things, i.e, person is not equal to character. Character is character and that's it.Â
I got hungry after typing all that. XD