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+--- Thread: Debates are not arguments (/showthread.php?tid=10258)
RE: Debates are not arguments - Atoli - 02-23-2015
(02-22-2015, 09:24 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:(02-22-2015, 08:03 PM)Mamushi Wrote: If its that intrusive for you, just temporarily black list them or turn the channel off for a while.
Why should anyone have to do something so obtuse over 2-3 people that can't be bothered to back off before things turn sour?
This was the whole point of my first post: have consideration for your fellow players. It really isn't that hard, folks.
It's not sour though, it's a conversation, not an argument... :S I think that's the big difference folks are missing here. Conversation where two folks are talking from opposite perspectives or "sides" is not an argument, which is, well, the titular purpose of the thread alone... to raise awareness that disagreeing is not rude or toxic at all. Or at least, it shouldn't be.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Gone. - 02-23-2015
I'm saying when it does get sour, not that it always is or does. >_>
RE: Debates are not arguments - Verranicus - 02-23-2015
(02-23-2015, 01:14 AM)Aldotsk Wrote: While debating is okay, but when it comes down to the discussion of "You should be RPing like this" is just considered rude. There is no -right- way of roleplaying since we aren't really 100% synchronized to our own PC living in that side of lore or that world. Even the so-called pro-Roleplayers get a lot wrong and they try to correct others when they aren't really right and they aren't perfect. Why? because they feel that they are veterans and know more than the new players or new people who are getting into lores. Even rookie roleplayers can do a better job than pro-roleplayers, Â honestly.ÂLore isn't up for interpretation in most cases. It may be your opinion that your character is the secret love child of Cid and Nero and that Chocobos come from the moon, and that's great, but you'd be wrong. If someone corrects you or wants to discuss something like this, they're not trying to upset you or troll you, they're usually trying to save you further grief down the road.
Debating can turn into an argument - depending on how strong their opinions are. If the debate is not resolved, then people will start pointing guns at each other because they can't agree or respect each other's opinions.
Roleplayers or Non-Roleplayers - This logic is a human logic than a roleplayer logic. Political debate has never been resolved, neither did religious debate.
Edit: Also, no one should slam down on someone's roleplaying style just because you don't like it. It's either you find other people to roleplay with that you feel comfortable with, or just quit  Roleplaying for your own good. Easy as done.
Also I couldn't help but laugh at the idea of a 'pro roleplayer'.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Aduu Avagnar - 02-23-2015
(02-22-2015, 07:25 PM)Flashhelix Wrote:(02-22-2015, 07:21 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:(02-22-2015, 05:59 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: How does it shut everything else out? It's textual communication. Everybody's posts and responses can be seen regardless of what's being discussed. If Guy A and Guy B are calling eachother mean names over the LS, it's not like I can't see Guy C's replies, or that my conversation with Guy C about bread is somehow negatively affected by Guy A and Guy B's spat.
Because negative attitudes have this tendency to overpower everything else in the room, textual or no. It's also incredibly difficult to follow more than one conversation in something like an LS due to the lack of line-by-line color segregation.
Maybe you've never been in this situation before, but trust me, this is exactly how it happens and it's not a good thing in the slightest.
I've been in this situation countless times and could still carry on a conversation just fine. An argument only turns into some big thing that engulfs the entire chat when people who aren't participating in said discussion cause a big stink about not wanting it to happen. I suppose I just lucked out and none of those arguments were strong enough to 'overpower' my unrelated conversation.
Mod edit by FreelanceWizard: text from posts removed was removed from this quote.
can we leave the personal finger pointing to private please? that is what turns a debate into a shitstorm.
that being said, I am all for debate. And a debate should never /ever/ have the words 'you shouldn't RP like this'. That is a closed statement, that states that it is ironclad. instead, a better way of presenting it would be 'This is what the lore states, this is what I have extrapolated from this, and this is how I think it applies.' that is how a debate starts, and should continue. when you start getting into personal attacks, is when it starts getting negative and should either be removed to a private channel, or simply dropped and people should just agree to disagree.
That said, if I am debating something in a LS, if no one says anything, then I will assume they either don't have an opinion on the matter, or simply don't care, not that they find it uncomfortable.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Aldotsk - 02-23-2015
(02-23-2015, 07:23 AM)Verranicus Wrote: Lore isn't up for interpretation in most cases. It may be your opinion that your character is the secret love child of Cid and Nero and that Chocobos come from the moon, and that's great, but you'd be wrong. If someone corrects you or wants to discuss something like this, they're not trying to upset you or troll you, they're usually trying to save you further grief down the road.
Also I couldn't help but laugh at the idea of a 'pro roleplayer'.
Hmm. I'll give this as an example since I've actually ran into people who claimed that they were veteran roleplayers and slammed on new roleplayers before.Â
Like if a player A liked to short phrase and didn't like writing a paragraph or just kept roleplaying by just entering lines every seconds, the player B corrects the player A saying "that's not how you should RP", by telling him/her that they should write it in  a paragraph instead of spamming the chat with one short line.
Other example is, like controlling multiple characters in the scenario when they aren't physically in the game. Player A has two characters in the RP scene with others. One is his character that is  actually in the game and we can see the person. But the other character is someone we can't see but the player A reminded us that the character is there. Then player B says "the character is not  there" and says "no roleplayers should need a second character to RP in a group RP"
(This has happened a lot in FF14 RP before, and before I usually pull player B stunt, I ask player  A OOCly how the player is there and see if I can fit the person in majority of the time. Or have player A know or ask us if that second character to be there first)
My last example is when player A decides to write his RP in a skit / play script style of Roleplay in a game or forum RP, a player B says that the player A's writing style does not fit for RP because player A refuses to write it in a novel type like everyone else.
I agree with you of lore  correction.  But my debatable argument was focused to mostly RP b y writing styles, and interaction, more than abusing lores. About how people should treat roleplaying not always the same for everyone else and really should not correct the way they should roleplay.
Also to relay what Edvyn said, it is right for everyone to enjoy their own roleplay, but it doesn't mean they should go and make other people feel bad just because you want to feel happy for yourself by correcting their roleplaying. Â (outside of lores)
Technically, Verranicus's example was right that RP such as "Cid's secret son" should never really happen since that is just actually touching the actual lore and try to change it. (I don't think that's really correcting one's roleplaying style than just correcting the lore to fit into it). - While I've also encountered WoW's player claiming to be Uther's son when Uther never really had a son and died being a lonely paladin.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Kage - 02-23-2015
(02-23-2015, 08:28 AM)Nako Wrote: That said, if I am debating something in a LS, if no one says anything, then I will assume they either don't have an opinion on the matter, or simply don't care, not that they find it uncomfortable.see that silence? It's because the overriding negativity (if there is such as is the case with most topics that start to become heated are) is the big fat pink elephant in the room.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Cato - 02-23-2015
Everybody has the right to do whatever they want when it comes to role-play. Nobody is really contesting that. It doesn't suddenly mean that criticism can never be directed in someone's direction and if they're doing something bizarre then they'll end up drawing attention to themselves even if they don't want any.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Ashren Dotharl - 02-23-2015
My personal opinion on the matter is that there is nothing wrong with people having a debate, even a heated one, in a public area such as a FC or a LS so long as the rules of said medium to not forbid it. The primary difference between a debate and an argument is that debates are a battle of the mind, while arguments are a battle of the heart. If you can keep a level head and not get overly offended then all good! For those who are easily prone to becoming butthurt, all I can say is you probably shouldn't be on the internet if a simple debate rustles your jimmies this much.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Aldotsk - 02-23-2015
So my theory about people debating turns into an argument is literally true since this is what is happening when everyone was debating and then people starts to make sarcastic remarks and someone doesn't get it and gets insulted and defensive by attacking each other... And then get the thread locked.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Cato - 02-23-2015
(02-23-2015, 08:55 AM)Aldotsk Wrote: So my theory about people debating turns into an argument is literally true since this is what is happening when everyone was debating and then people starts to make sarcastic remarks and someone doesn't get it and gets insulted and defensive by attacking each other... And then get the thread locked.
Not every debate ends up in an argument and the commentary within this thread is incredibly tame compared to what can be found elsewhere. It also strikes me as counterproductive to lock an entire thread just because a handful of individuals are losing their cool. It'd be far more efficient to just deal with those who can't restrain themselves instead.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Aduu Avagnar - 02-23-2015
(02-23-2015, 08:35 AM)Kage Wrote:when I say no one says anything, I do of course mean apart from the person/people I am debating with.(02-23-2015, 08:28 AM)Nako Wrote: That said, if I am debating something in a LS, if no one says anything, then I will assume they either don't have an opinion on the matter, or simply don't care, not that they find it uncomfortable.see that silence? It's  because the overriding negativity (if there is such as is the case with most topics that start to become heated are) is the big fat pink elephant in the room.
bottom line! if you feel uncomfortable about something, speak up, otherwise people don't have a clue. We are not mind readers.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Kage - 02-23-2015
(02-23-2015, 09:08 AM)Nako Wrote:That's exactly what I mean.(02-23-2015, 08:35 AM)Kage Wrote:when I say no one says anything, I do of course mean apart from the person/people I am debating with.(02-23-2015, 08:28 AM)Nako Wrote: That said, if I am debating something in a LS, if no one says anything, then I will assume they either don't have an opinion on the matter, or simply don't care, not that they find it uncomfortable.see that silence? It's  because the overriding negativity (if there is such as is the case with most topics that start to become heated are) is the big fat pink elephant in the room.
bottom line! if you feel uncomfortable about something, speak up, otherwise people don't have a clue. We are not mind readers.
I see far more people entirely leave Linkshells or brood upon the negativity and -then- leave Linkshells because of a small group of peoples' general attitudes over arguments that start to overwhelm Linkshells (negativity, not knowing when to stop, things get heated, etc). Sometimes it's because people who are not part of the debate do speak up and no one listens or it's because they're typically non-confrontational people so when put on the spot to do something about it people would rather mouse away ("I don't want to be the one to deal with this drama llama").
And these people usually tend to be the more level-headed people.
You start to get people sending /tells about how negative it's becoming etc than to have the big fat fucking elephant get talked about.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Melodia - 02-23-2015
(02-23-2015, 09:18 AM)Kage Wrote:This. This 100%.(02-23-2015, 09:08 AM)Nako Wrote:That's exactly what I mean.(02-23-2015, 08:35 AM)Kage Wrote:when I say no one says anything, I do of course mean apart from the person/people I am debating with.(02-23-2015, 08:28 AM)Nako Wrote: That said, if I am debating something in a LS, if no one says anything, then I will assume they either don't have an opinion on the matter, or simply don't care, not that they find it uncomfortable.see that silence? It's  because the overriding negativity (if there is such as is the case with most topics that start to become heated are) is the big fat pink elephant in the room.
bottom line! if you feel uncomfortable about something, speak up, otherwise people don't have a clue. We are not mind readers.
I see far more people entirely leave Linkshells or brood upon the negativity and -then- leave Linkshells because of a small group of peoples' general attitudes over arguments that start to overwhelm Linkshells (negativity, not knowing when to stop, things get heated, etc). Sometimes it's because people who are not part of the debate do speak up and no one listens or it's because they're typically non-confrontational people so when put on the spot to do something about it people would rather mouse away ("I don't want to be the one to deal with this drama llama").
And these people usually tend to be the more level-headed people.
You start to get people sending /tells about how negative it's becoming etc than to have the big fat fucking elephant get talked about.
RE: Debates are not arguments - Cato - 02-23-2015
Experiences differ, I suppose. I'd be very happy if I could join an OOC Linkshell where debate and conversation is actually a thing in the first place. Those that I've joined tend to be very quiet and very few people end up responding if attempts at starting a conversation are made.
Then some of the Linkshells that are active tend to be guilty of ignoring anyone who isn't 'in' with whichever crowd of players happens to dominate it.
RE: Debates are not arguments - FreelanceWizard - 02-23-2015
So as you all may have noticed, I've already had to moderate this thread once (thankfully, the posts were easy enough to slice out). Please remember rules 1, 2, and 5 in this discussion. Thanks.
#magicAdminHat