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+--- Thread: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? (/showthread.php?tid=11169)
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Verad - 04-21-2015
How about we discard the business of historicity entirely and look at this from another angle than one that has been and will be looked at by embittered roleplay autodidacts throughout RP history: thematically, rather than historically, why the greatsword?Â
Presuming people do know the history of the greatsword and that it was a specific weapon for a specific role, and then they choose to have their character wield it in complete defiance of that knowledge, why would they do that? Is it possible that the greatsword has acquired a a kind of thematic and symbolic weight that has nothing at all to do with its historical use? Why is that thematic weight insignificant compared to historically accurate portrayals of its use, or why should it be that?
Mod Edit: Pruned some posts, one of which was quoted here. Edit was in order to preserve discussion. ~ Melkire
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Aya - 04-21-2015
Ultimately Verad's really, right. People will chose their weapons based upon aesthetic and story. Nothing else actually matters. It may be interesting to discuss, but such concerns won't effect who decides a buster sword fits their character.
I'm actually getting a feeling that very few RPers will really play in-character DRKs (just as very few play ninjas, at least in my experience), but many will use the job for access to their preferred aesthetic. I can't but see this as an improvement to the game.
Mod Edit: This one too, goddamn you people are fast. Or too slow, I can't tell. ~ Melkire
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Warren Castille - 04-21-2015
Dark Knight has been anticipated by the RP community for a long time coming. There'll be some "nerds" who jump onto the flavor of the month, but I think it's doing a disservice to say that most people here doing it for that reason. We've known DRK was coming officially for months now, and some folks had already been setting the path for them to take up the iconography of the class. Remember, we only just recently got the lore drop for what they do, and there's still question marks around it.
Folks have been RPing invisible greatswords since folks have been RPing in XIV. Some folks have been slowly turning their RP towards Ishgard to see what develops there. I know of one guy who's been killing corrupt Ishgardian officials since before it was cool, dating back to last summer.
Besides, great swords are cool.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Gegenji - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Besides, great swords are cool.
But would you say they're great?
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Khadan - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 02:54 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: As an interesting side note, weapons did not develop in a vacuum.
Two handed swords did not become popular until the advent of full body plate. At that point you didn't need a shield, your entire body was a shield.
It was far better to just have a better and more powerful weapon. Ironically in many fantasy games, the trope is Plate plus shield, but in reality that wasn't all that common.
Generally only more lightly armored people used a shield, skirmishers and ranged troops and such. Since they are cheap, and you can drop it if you have to run.
That's a great point! I would add that even with the invention of plate armor you would have examples of shield use, though most notably was with jousting and such, though I believe that plate was invented because of mounted lancers but I don't remember the source on that other than 'some history channel crap I watched as a kid'.Â
Otherwise, yeah, you didn't see a fully plated person generally using a sword and shield or, if they did have a messer sword or falchion it was likely as a sidearm only while their main weapon was employed first and/or most commonly. Â However you would see people in say a breastplate and chainmail using a shield, or what you might call 'half plate' depending on where you're from etc. The notion of shield walls was seemingly less practiced post Roman era though whether that was from lack of military discipline and education or because other tactics rendered it obsolete, I'm unsure. I think the Germanic and Nordic peoples employed some 'shield wall' style tactics, though it likely resembled the Greek style 'huddle' more than the Roman Scutum line. You may know more than me on that, though! =)
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Verad - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:12 PM)Gegenji Wrote:(04-21-2015, 03:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Besides, great swords are cool.
But would you say they're great?
Indeed. When will we stop overreaching and settle for the goodsword?
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Gegenji - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:13 PM)Verad Wrote:(04-21-2015, 03:12 PM)Gegenji Wrote:(04-21-2015, 03:11 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Besides, great swords are cool.
But would you say they're great?
Indeed. When will we stop overreaching and settle for the goodsword?
I'm fine with an okaysword. As long as it gets the job done.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Aya - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:16 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I'm fine with an okaysword. As long as it gets the job done.I like my swords in many shapes and sizes, but 'okay' just won't cut it!
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - McBeefâ„¢ - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:06 PM)Verad Wrote: How about we discard the business of historicity entirely and look at this from another angle than one that has been and will be looked at by embittered roleplay autodidacts throughout RP history: thematically, rather than historically, why the greatsword?Â
Presuming people do know the history of the greatsword and that it was a specific weapon for a specific role, and then they choose to have their character wield it in complete defiance of that knowledge, why would they do that? Is it possible that the greatsword has acquired a a kind of thematic and symbolic weight that has nothing at all to do with its historical use? Why is that thematic weight insignificant compared to historically accurate portrayals of its use, or why should it be that?
Well they are bigger and cooler!
I get what you are saying Verad, but things like these are just fun to talk about.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Gegenji - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:17 PM)Aya Wrote:(04-21-2015, 03:16 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I'm fine with an okaysword. As long as it gets the job done.I like my swords in many shapes and sizes, but 'okay' just won't cut it!
... b-but it's a sword. If it couldn't cut it, it'd be a badsword, not an okaysword!
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Warren Castille - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:19 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Well they are bigger and cooler!
I get what you are saying Verad, but things like these are just fun to talk about.
Can we split this into an off-topic discussion of the historical use and implications of Great Swords so that the people discussing the class can stay on topic, then? Because I'm not sure how well the Greeks and Nords and Germanic folks relate to Eorzea, a world with magic and dragons and sentient potatoes.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Verad - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:19 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Well they are bigger and cooler!
I get what you are saying Verad, but things like these are just fun to talk about.
Certainly, but when it becomes a judgment on RP because players are supposed to "see sense" and go back to the more historically efficacious weapon, it becomes less of a fun thing to talk about and starts being an indictment on the people who chose it in spite of the historical use of the weapon. Then when there's the assumption that people made that choice because they're ignorant of the real use of the weapon, and not that they might be choosing based on different criteria, it becomes even less so.
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Khadan - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:21 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:(04-21-2015, 03:19 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Well they are bigger and cooler!
I get what you are saying Verad, but things like these are just fun to talk about.
Can we split this into an off-topic discussion of the historical use and implications of Great Swords so that the people discussing the class can stay on topic, then? Because I'm not sure how well the Greeks and Nords and Germanic folks relate to Eorzea, a world with magic and dragons and sentient potatoes.
Well the original topic did include:
Quote:Secondly, even I am finding it hard to resist the allure of a two-handed sword. I am stubbornly trying to fly the flag that I can be just as cool with a sword and shield. If I'm having trouble with trying to fight it, then well...there is surely going to be a rush. But are the days of sword-and-board numbered in the face of the sheer awesomeness total commonness of the greatsword?
I would say that historical anecdotes and discussion are part of the overall point of the thread. If we're talking about preferences, even, then we discuss why people preferred a certain weapon in the past since those things would be dictated mostly by historical references as none of us lived in a society where relying on said weaponry was the mainstay. We can argue "because we like it better" but unless discussion and historical reference is actually banned then why try to stifle that?
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Khadan - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:23 PM)Verad Wrote:(04-21-2015, 03:19 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Well they are bigger and cooler!
I get what you are saying Verad, but things like these are just fun to talk about.
Certainly, but when it becomes a judgment on RP because players are supposed to "see sense" and go back to the more historically efficacious weapon, it becomes less of a fun thing to talk about and starts being an indictment on the people who chose it in spite of the historical use of the weapon. Then when there's the assumption that people made that choice because they're ignorant of the real use of the weapon, and not that they might be choosing based on different criteria, it becomes even less so.
Luckily no one suggested that making judgements in RP for people's 'weapon choice' is or should be a thing =P
RE: Will two hands replace one hand, and dark knights replace paladins? - Warren Castille - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 03:30 PM)Kayllen Wrote:(04-21-2015, 03:23 PM)Verad Wrote:(04-21-2015, 03:19 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Well they are bigger and cooler!
I get what you are saying Verad, but things like these are just fun to talk about.
Certainly, but when it becomes a judgment on RP because players are supposed to "see sense" and go back to the more historically efficacious weapon, it becomes less of a fun thing to talk about and starts being an indictment on the people who chose it in spite of the historical use of the weapon. Then when there's the assumption that people made that choice because they're ignorant of the real use of the weapon, and not that they might be choosing based on different criteria, it becomes even less so.
Luckily no one suggested that making judgements in RP for people's 'weapon choice' is or should be a thing =P
I can see how you'd think that would be the case, but you wrote a very strongly-leaning post consisting of several huge paragraphs that seem to indicate that people picking greatsword or Dark Knight are wrong because reasons.