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+--- Thread: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? (/showthread.php?tid=15549)
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - FreelanceWizard - 03-16-2016
(03-16-2016, 03:32 PM)Val Wrote: How many people are claiming to have killed primals in their backstories? Separately? Those things must be summoned on a daily basis.
You say that jokingly, but the game suggests that they're being summoned quite a bit -- all part of the Ascian plan, you see. That's a discussion for another thread, though.
I don't think it's helpful to the argument against having relationships with canonical NPCs to equivocate things that can absolutely exist in the setting but that have a power level you dislike (fighting primals and limit breaks) with people essentially taking over others' characters and asking other RPers to hew to their interpretation of how those NPCs act -- which is exactly what RPing that you're besties with a canonical NPC is doing. Ultimately, that's the reason why having connections to canonical NPCs rubs people the wrong way. It's seizing control of part of the setting.
To tie this back to the WoL, it's even worse with him (her?) because of the position the WoL holds in the story. The WoL is every character and no character. We see the WoL as our character in the cutscenes and the other NPCs do as well; the trailers and other media have this hyur guy standing in as the WoL (maybe, perhaps, we assume). It's impossible to pin down anything about the WoL other than the consequences of the events in which he/she participates. Add that to all the other problems with getting involved with canonical NPCs and it just turns into a big mess.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Val - 03-16-2016
(03-16-2016, 03:45 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:(03-16-2016, 03:32 PM)Val Wrote: How many people are claiming to have killed primals in their backstories? Separately? Those things must be summoned on a daily basis.
You say that jokingly, but the game suggests that they're being summoned quite a bit -- all part of the Ascian plan, you see. That's a discussion for another thread, though.
The WoL is every character and no character. We see the WoL as our character in the cutscenes and the other NPCs do as well;
Which is why I brought up the Primal stuff to begin with. Do we see anyone else taking them out fine? With just eight people? "My character did it in the game" isn't really a valid excuse as your character, for all intents and purposes, is the warrior of light--a level that shouldn't be reachable by actual RP characters.Â
As for Primals being summoned constantly, sure. I can see in the game where multiple primals are being summoned, but is there anything directly saying that Ifrit is constantly being summoned over and over again to justify all the people that claim to have beaten Ifrit in their back story?
Kind of like how I knew a guy in WoW that claimed to kill Onyxia by himself because his game character could.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Martiallais - 03-16-2016
(03-16-2016, 03:56 PM)Val Wrote: As for Primals being summoned constantly, sure. I can see in the game where multiple primals are being summoned, but is there anything directly saying that Ifrit is constantly being summoned over and over again to justify all the people that claim to have beaten Ifrit in their back story?
The FATEs where you're stopping beast tribes from grabbing crystals or putting down people who've been tempered/drowned/etc. While in my (PERSONAL) canon of the world primals aren't summoned every other day, they do happen more we see (I'm thinking once every couple months myself - and the EX versions at that!). Also it's mentioned (somewhere, sorry don't have the quote) that it's the job of some soldiers (in the Flames I believe?) to put down those who've been tempered. So you can assume from there that it's happening at least enough to dedicate some of the already thinly stretched resources specifically to that.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Val - 03-16-2016
(03-16-2016, 04:07 PM)Martiallais Wrote:(03-16-2016, 03:56 PM)Val Wrote: As for Primals being summoned constantly, sure. I can see in the game where multiple primals are being summoned, but is there anything directly saying that Ifrit is constantly being summoned over and over again to justify all the people that claim to have beaten Ifrit in their back story?
The FATEs where you're stopping beast tribes from grabbing crystals or putting down people who've been tempered/drowned/etc. While in my (PERSONAL) canon of the world primals aren't summoned every other day, they do happen more we see (I'm thinking once every couple months myself - and the EX versions at that!). Also it's mentioned (somewhere, sorry don't have the quote) that it's the job of some soldiers (in the Flames I believe?) to put down those who've been tempered. So you can assume from there that it's happening at least enough to dedicate some of the already thinly stretched resources specifically to that.
So if the super powered primals are summoned stronger than they were before, why isn't the Warrior of Light doubling back to take them out since apparently he was the "only one" that could do it before?Â
I openly admit it's nitpicky, but these are the type of inconsistencies that kind of turn me off of claiming to beat them. You have tons of RPers, and I know at least ten+ that are saying they personally fought them on their own (at the Warrior of Light's side/whatever). With game mechanics being game mechanics and EX primals clearly made for that purpose, with SE's crappy "Oh btw this is the reason why this happens" one-line excuses, it makes it a little dodgy to me =)
I'd get behind someone working with the Grand Companies to stop the tempering more than anything, myself.
And really, again, I'm not trying to tell people what they can and can't RP. If someone ever mentions it to Val, he just shrugs it off with, "Nah too much work, don't care," and I let them do their thing.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - FreelanceWizard - 03-16-2016
(03-16-2016, 03:56 PM)Val Wrote: Kind of like how I knew a guy in WoW that claimed to kill Onyxia by himself because his game character could.
Nope, it's not like that at all. You're equating Onyxia (a singular named NPC) with a Primal, which is by lore an entity that can, in fact, be summoned repeatedly, that multiple groups know how to summon repeatedly, and that a group of entities are actively trying to spread the knowledge of how to summon to serve their ends. Onyxia and a Primal aren't even remotely the same thing.
If Primals are only summoned extremely rarely, then:
- Why is there a register of people who have successfully faced down Ifrit and not been Tempered? (SMN quest line)
- Why do the Scions kill Tempered soldiers in a largely blase way, as if this were a duty to which they were accustomed? (MSQ, post-Ifrit)
- How do you have a regular supply of Tempered, Drowned, and Touched? (FATEs, backstory of the Serpent Reavers)
- Why do the Amalj'aa keep kidnapping people to Temper them and why do they have a place specifically to keep them? (S. Thanalan FATEs and map)
- Why is crystal theft by beast tribes a common issue? (MSQ, 2.1, and a bunch of FATEs)
- Why does the Immortal Flames have a problem with their numbers being drained by repeated battles with Ifrit and his followers? (MSQ, 2.1)
Regardless, I think we definitely disagree on the level of expertise and ability of adventurers, or at least the level of power primals represent, and that's fine. There's a wide range of power represented in adventurers in the spectrum of RP.
I don't feel that your average primal summoning is WoL material; the WoL is only called in for the Big Deals. More importantly, I don't feel the WoL is that much more powerful than a skilled and talented adventurer. The WoL is in the right place at the right time, has powerful friends, and happens to possess two very useful things (the Blessing of Light and the Echo).At any rate, it's largely immaterial for this discussion because, again, RPing someone with significant martial prowess doesn't inherently screw over other RPers. IMO, it's poor form to make a character whose only characteristic is their martial power, sure, but that's not what we're talking about. Seizing control of an NPC does screw over other RPers, and that's why it's problematic -- and that, among other reasons, is why being buddies with the WoL (or any named NPC) is a bad idea.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Warren Castille - 03-16-2016
Using FATEs to decide lore is somewhat silly if only because it means that all of the super dangerous Ixals out in Coerthas are immortal as hell, given that they've died hundreds, if not thousands of times. Every single FATE involving a named enemy is the same way.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - McBeefâ„¢ - 03-16-2016
(03-16-2016, 04:26 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:I do agree on this. There were primals before the WoL showed up, and after they left for Ishgard. Life goes on and somehow they are taken care of. The first few battles are supposed to have been very bloody in the lore, but as people learned more about them they've gotten better at dealing with them.(03-16-2016, 03:56 PM)Val Wrote: Kind of like how I knew a guy in WoW that claimed to kill Onyxia by himself because his game character could.
Nope, it's not like that at all. You're equating Onyxia (a singular named NPC) with a Primal, which is by lore an entity that can, in fact, be summoned repeatedly, that multiple groups know how to summon repeatedly, and that a group of entities are actively trying to spread the knowledge of how to summon to serve their ends. Onyxia and a Primal aren't even remotely the same thing.
If Primals are only summoned extremely rarely, then:I could go on.
- Why is there a register of people who have successfully faced down Ifrit and not been Tempered? (SMN quest line)
- Why do the Scions kill Tempered soldiers in a largely blase way, as if this were a duty to which they were accustomed? (MSQ, post-Ifrit)
- How do you have a regular supply of Tempered, Drowned, and Touched? (FATEs, backstory of the Serpent Reavers)
- Why do the Amalj'aa keep kidnapping people to Temper them and why do they have a place specifically to keep them? (S. Thanalan FATEs and map)
- Why is crystal theft by beast tribes a common issue? (MSQ, 2.1, and a bunch of FATEs)
- Why does the Immortal Flames have a problem with their numbers being drained by repeated battles with Ifrit and his followers? (MSQ, 2.1)
Regardless, I think we definitely disagree on the level of expertise and ability of adventurers, or at least the level of power primals represent, and that's fine. There's a wide range of power represented in adventurers in the spectrum of RP.
At any rate, it's largely immaterial for this discussion because, again, RPing someone with significant martial prowess doesn't inherently screw over other RPers. IMO, it's poor form to make a character whose only characteristic is their martial power, sure, but that's not what we're talking about. Seizing control of an NPC does screw over other RPers, and that's why it's problematic -- and that, among other reasons, is why being buddies with the WoL (or any named NPC) is a bad idea.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Kellach Woods - 03-16-2016
(03-16-2016, 04:26 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: More importantly, I don't feel the WoL is that much more powerful than a skilled and talented adventurer. The WoL is in the right place at the right time, has powerful friends, and happens to possess two very useful things (the Blessing of Light and the Echo).It would also explain why the WoL is dumber than a sack of shit.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Jana - 03-16-2016
If we wanna be super nitpicky about Primals, we can say the original three story Primals are summoned in their Ex forms once a week: There is a Rowena weekly to kill them once a week for their summoners' bloody totems, after all. (And it isn't a "relive the experience" weekly like the WoD trio or anything from the Minstrel.)
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Val - 03-16-2016
(03-16-2016, 04:46 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Using FATEs to decide lore is somewhat silly if only because it means that all of the super dangerous Ixals out in Coerthas are immortal as hell, given that they've died hundreds, if not thousands of times. Every single FATE involving a named enemy is the same way.
Pretty much this. FATEs are nothing more than an extension of game mechanics with SE's signature "this is why this works" design implemented into it. Again, I'm not going to say don't follow it if that's where you get your lore from, but I can't say I agree with it either.
In pretty much every community I've ever RPed in, sans this one, game events/mechanics/characters/whatever were pretty taboo to touch (on a personal level, at least). It's just something that I've come to be used to over time!
I feel like the whole FATE thing falls within the purview of "could, but should?" Mostly because it would mean that Lightning events were real aside from a shitty attempt to promote their awful games.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Flynn Rosenberg - 03-16-2016
RPing FATES can be pretty fun. Our group likes to venture certain areas and take part in the ones that seem regular, like escorting someone who is being attacked does happen out in the world. The areas that have the least activity are best suited.
But this is another topic entirely. Just because it's a mechanic doesn't mean it's dismissively non-canon. I had this argument with someone who said Levemetes aren't real, and neither are certain swords because they're "impractical and don't suit the universe". Well, they're there, they're purchasable from vendors. I say they're as canon as Hildebrand.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - FreelanceWizard - 03-16-2016
Well, in terms of the named Ixal ones, we have magical healing. Perhaps they get taken from the field and healed when they fall? Even if we dismiss those particular FATEs as impossible to repeat, it doesn't necessarily follow that no FATE represents a recurring issue. In fact, a great many FATEs appear to represent recurring problems, whether animals overrunning an area, Garleans testing new war machines, or people needing escort through dangerous areas.
As for levemetes, it's important that they be canon, because levequests are the whole basis of the adventuring economy in Eorzea. Individuals or groups go to the Adventurers' Guild or nearest levemete and commission a leve to take care of some problem that they're having, and the levemete hands it via leveplate to an appropriately authorized adventurer who completes the task. Upon verification and turning in the leveplate, the levemete pays the adventurer.
I come from a school of RP (which runs all the way back to EQ
) where the world is integrated into the RP. If the world says, "hey, around here, coeurls tend to run amok" through a FATE, then that's the case. If it says, "there's this story about this mysterious woman from some other reality," then yep, that's true too. There's a famous investigator named Hildibrand, rocs periodically assault Camp Dragonhead, and yes, some pink-haired woman was allegedly teleporting around and being reported on by the various newspapers (which apparently only target the rich and adventurers 
). If SE says, "this is why this works," then that's how it works, and that's that. I accept it because that's the stated lore, even if I don't agree with it <insert angry ranting about White Mage here>.That's just my perspective, though, and I know not everyone agrees. I suppose my larger point is that both schools of thought exist in the RP community...
...but we can all agree that being close personal friends with a canon NPC is really, really bad idea. Doubly so if that NPC is intentionally ill-defined, like the WoL.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Flynn Rosenberg - 03-16-2016
(03-16-2016, 06:02 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Â If SE says, "this is why this works," then that's how it works, and that's that. I accept it because that's the stated lore, even if I don't agree with it.Pretty much this right here has always been the norm for me, whatever universe or game I'm RPing in.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Caspar - 03-16-2016
I think their frequency is something to be skeptical of, but nevertheless FATES are canon lore and could be taken as an example of events that may occasionally happen or regularly occur in the region.
RE: IC interactions with the REAL WoL? - Val - 03-16-2016
(03-16-2016, 06:02 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: If SE says, "this is why this works," then that's how it works, and that's that. I accept it because that's the stated lore, even if I don't agree with it <insert angry ranting about White Mage here>.
I can definitely agree with most of what was said. What I can't agree with, and honestly just won't pay attention to, is agreeing with lore from a company that is determined to come up with dumb, in-game reasons as to why they have particular game mechanics. There's a whole plethora of examples with this in many FF games to date, and I've echoed this sentiment a million times over, but it's just something they do. I will never acknowledge that someone fought alongside Lightning in a FATE or that she was ever even there to begin with. Some of the smaller FATEs? Sure, those at least make sense. But some others, like the Lightning one? Naaaah. That just opens the flood gates for people to be time travelers/dimension hoppers themselves, and no thank you.