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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead (/showthread.php?tid=17480)
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Parvacake - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 07:15 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:But...they didn't really drop the ball though? It's not for no reason, either. It's their lore and their story. They aren't obligated to do anything. People wanted lore and they got it.Â(10-16-2016, 07:08 PM)Ciel Wrote: If a Dragoon happens to die somewhere unfortunately, too, like picked up and dropped into a chasm somewhere which can't be easily traversed, it's unlikely that soul stone is going to be reclaimed. Trying to maintain the same number of soul stones at all times would be problematic. They would have to have others in case some fall beyond reach. This also doesn't mean the stone can't be somehow reclaimed by someone at another time.This is EXACTLY why Square Enix has massively dropped the ball by having this level of specificity just randomly for NO reason.
Now they are obligated to explain this.
"It is a very small, elite Order."Â Could have sufficed.
Mind you, I've never played DRG. I've never gotten LNC past 17 or 18 in the game. But even just what I've seen of the game and conext clues, DRGs were never meant to be a mass order of individuals. Considering the scope of the DSW, the fact that DRGs took a hit SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISING.
It's 30 DRGs. It's SE's story, not ours, we're just the players exploring it. They don't owe you, me, or anyone else jackshit. To think otherwise is just entitlement.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Caspar - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 07:24 PM)Melkire Wrote: Didn't read every post, but some folks have already pointed out the obvious:So long as the Jump's nature remains something of an enigma, it's not strictly ruled out as something a player character with adequate potential couldn't learn, so this seems like an obvious solution for the more cosmopolitan dragoon. It may be more difficult for players who are inherently within the Order of Knights Dragoon and fight alongside the military.
The ten and thirty are specifically with regards to the Order of Knights Dragoon. Those are the dragoons in drachen mail who serve in what constitutes Ishgard's military.
It does not include the retired, such as Alberic.
It PROBABLY does not count the "lesser" dragoons at the Convictory.
It certainly does not count the most comparable example for RP purposes, the Warrior of Light.
In short: this changes little for the RP community, as there are many loopholes and workarounds so long as you avoid incorporating active service in present events for your character.
"I was taught the techniques by an Ishgardian against tradition, doctrine, orders, protocol, etc." is the easiest out.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - McBeefâ„¢ - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 07:24 PM)Melkire Wrote: Didn't read every post, but some folks have already pointed out the obvious:
The ten and thirty are specifically with regards to the Order of Knights Dragoon. Those are the dragoons in drachen mail who serve in what constitutes Ishgard's military.
It does not include the retired, such as Alberic.
It PROBABLY does not count the "lesser" dragoons at the Convictory.
It certainly does not count the most comparable example for RP purposes, the Warrior of Light.
In short: this changes little for the RP community, as there are many loopholes and workarounds so long as you avoid incorporating active service in present events for your character.
"I was taught the techniques by an Ishgardian against tradition, doctrine, orders, protocol, etc." is the easiest out.
Yeah I thought anyone who killed a Dragon was a Dragoon. The 30 are just like the cool kids club.Â
I used Paladins before, but maybe Monetarists are a better example? There are only 6 rich people on the Syndicate, however you can be an incredibly rich noble in Uldah, with lots of power.
You can be an incredibly skilled dragoon with the soulstone who has killed a Dragon... but maybe you're not cool enough to be on the cool kids club. It's all politics really.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Silmanos - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 07:30 PM)McBeef Wrote:(10-16-2016, 07:24 PM)Melkire Wrote: Didn't read every post, but some folks have already pointed out the obvious:
The ten and thirty are specifically with regards to the Order of Knights Dragoon. Those are the dragoons in drachen mail who serve in what constitutes Ishgard's military.
It does not include the retired, such as Alberic.
It PROBABLY does not count the "lesser" dragoons at the Convictory.
It certainly does not count the most comparable example for RP purposes, the Warrior of Light.
In short: this changes little for the RP community, as there are many loopholes and workarounds so long as you avoid incorporating active service in present events for your character.
"I was taught the techniques by an Ishgardian against tradition, doctrine, orders, protocol, etc." is the easiest out.
Yeah I thought anyone who killed a Dragon was a Dragoon. The 30 are just like the cool kids club.Â
I used Paladins before, but maybe Monetarists are a better example? There are only 6 rich people on the Syndicate, however you can be an incredibly rich noble in Uldah, with lots of power.
You can be an incredibly skilled dragoon with the soulstone who has killed a Dragon... but maybe you're not cool enough to be on the cool kids club. It's all politics really.
There are two different types of 'dragoon'. You have a dragoon who is someone who has killed a dragon and then you have a Knight Dragoon which is someone who has received training from the Order and actually does the jumps.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Verad - 10-16-2016
Personally I wouldn't stop anyone from retconning if they felt the need.
But a heck of a lot can happen in a thousand-year-old city-state with a history that is one-third forgotten and one-third rewritten by authorities with a vested interest in the revision.
People will figure out something to keep playing, some people will fume about this, neither of them will play with each other (which was probably the case before this anyway), and things will move on without much change.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Leggerless - 10-16-2016
Look on the bright side, guys.
At least they didn't complete eliminate the possibility of being a dragoon outside of NPCs (looking at you, dragoons who just killed a dragon or two).
Whole situation reminds me of Star Wars and how the expanded universe went to Legends rather than Canon. Also reminds me a bit of New Testament overriding Old Testament.
Anyways. We'll carry on and you'll figure out loopholes to keep your role, albeit slightly reduced, to conform to new lore policy.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Nero - 10-16-2016
Being the pretentious git that I am, I just think it's kind of a foolishly arbitrary number to commit to unless you have every other factor set in relative stone, because it raises more questions than it answers.
Like during a slow day in the office, Koji Fox shouted at Oda-san from across the building, "Oda-san, how many Dragoons are there?" and fifteen minutes later, a voice in a hallway that sounds like Oda-san but can't be 100% confirmed to have been Oda-san shouted back "Uhhh.....like, thirty or something!"
"Yeah, but how many alive?"
"Ten! Ten's a cool number, let's go with ten!"
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Sounsyy - 10-16-2016
The Order of the Knights Dragoon might be a shadow of what it once was, but that doesn't mean the dragoons are all gone. There are retired dragoons, as well as dragoons like those from the Convictory who have this to say:
Jantellot Wrote:Well, if it isn't the great Warrior of Light herself! She who slew the dread wyrm Nidhogg, bringing an end to a thousand years of war - and my very livelihood! Well, go on then - strike me down and finish the job! Stab me right in the heart! I'll even lend you my spear, if you like! After all, I won't be bloody needing it!
Oh, and lest you worry, that business about me losing my livelihood couldn't have been further from the truth. In point of fact, peace is proving surprisingly lucrative! As our nation's ties with Hraesvelgr's brood have grown stronger and our interests in Dravania have begun to expand, we have seen a marked increase in the number of travelers on the road. Needless to say, said travelers require protection, which we are only too happy to provide. Granted, such work will not earn you a lordship like slaying a dragon might, but it pays well and is far less prone to end in incineration - which seems a reasonable enough compromise, all things considered.
As for being one of ten to two score highly elite knights of Ishgard, that's up to personal feelings on the lore. I know there've always been dragoon RPers and I'm certain there'll always be more out there. How one might go about playing a dragoon just might be different from what it once was.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-16-2016
Not weighing in on anything else here, but it's worth noting that since the Convictory wasn't official, the Dragoons in it likely weren't either.
Which of course opens up a path for unofficial Dragoons as mentioned previously, but the actual order didn't have much relation.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Teadrinker - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 07:24 PM)Lililove Wrote:(10-16-2016, 07:15 PM)Teadrinker Wrote:But...they didn't really drop the ball though? It's not for no reason, either. It's their lore and their story. They aren't obligated to do anything. People wanted lore and they got it.Â(10-16-2016, 07:08 PM)Ciel Wrote: If a Dragoon happens to die somewhere unfortunately, too, like picked up and dropped into a chasm somewhere which can't be easily traversed, it's unlikely that soul stone is going to be reclaimed. Trying to maintain the same number of soul stones at all times would be problematic. They would have to have others in case some fall beyond reach. This also doesn't mean the stone can't be somehow reclaimed by someone at another time.This is EXACTLY why Square Enix has massively dropped the ball by having this level of specificity just randomly for NO reason.
Now they are obligated to explain this.
"It is a very small, elite Order."Â Could have sufficed.
Mind you, I've never played DRG. I've never gotten LNC past 17 or 18 in the game. But even just what I've seen of the game and conext clues, DRGs were never meant to be a mass order of individuals. Considering the scope of the DSW, the fact that DRGs took a hit SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISING.
It's 30 DRGs. It's SE's story, not ours, we're just the players exploring it. They don't owe you, me, or anyone else jackshit. To think otherwise is just entitlement.
Square didn't write this way to punish people.
I don't know WHY they wrote this way, frankly. Hell, they can't even define Thancred and Minnie's relationship beyond "HerpDerp Rampaging Goobbue" but we're still supposed to feel sad or something about it.
I'm just saying that for a company has has a 6 year long habit for being vague as hell they certainly picked an obnoxiously problematic and odd time to be double digit number specific.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Flashhelix - 10-16-2016
I don't really think it's worth freaking out over.
If you want to RP a dragoon, you can find a good enough excuse.
If someone really uses the lorebook as an excuse to tell people they can't play dragoons then they're a lame fuck and probably not worth your time anyway.
The lorebook says they were down to 10 people in active service by the time the final battle with Nidhogg was over, it doesn't say anything about new dragoons after that or retired/inactive dragoons coming back, so really all you'd have to say (and you'd only really need to do this if you're dead-set on being an ACTIVE-SERVICE dragoon) is that your character was inactive at the time of the Dragonsong War's end and that's it.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - AlionLucada - 10-16-2016
I doubt this is the case, but I hope this serves as a lesson for people who feel the need to RP something exclusive and rare in a games canon. If you can't come up with something interesting without slapping on a "oh also they're a member of a super exclusive and secretive order and they kill god beasts" you need to bone up on your RP 101.
I feel the same way about seeing people who RP Garleans of such high ranks that they'd be rubbing elbows with the likes of Gaius and Nael or ruling over their own castrum. Think small and nuanced, not grand and braggy when it comes to your characters.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Kilieit - 10-16-2016
We knew getting into the Knights Dragoon was hard, but we didn't know it was supposed to be this exclusive until literally yesterday for the most part. It was in "reasonable for a character who was born in the right place + had the right political motivation + worked hard & exclusively at it for long enough" territory.
I think simplifying it down to "people who RP'd dragoons just wanted to do something cool and special, like high-ranking military officers!" is pretty rude. Given, again. We didn't know it was supposed to be so elite there were only 30 of them until yesterday. We already know there's a limited number of Garlean officers with their own castrum; there was literally no way to extrapolate this information about dragoons until it was given to us, so I think faulting people for acting under a different assumption is expecting people to live up to impossible standards.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - V'aleera - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 09:52 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: "oh also they're a member of a super exclusive and secretive order and they kill god beasts"
Dragons, specifically the ones whose deaths bought rank and prestige, were certainly tough little cookies but "God beast" is a vast overestimation of their average level of power.
Then there's also the fact that the "super exclusive order" could straight up be lucked into by Bob the Ballista Guy.
This is an odd decision, and I'm curious to see if it stands once Koji comments on the various errors present in the book. Either way it doesn't affect me personally that much and just serves to shove me down one of the avenues I'd already been considering for my character moving forward.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Kilieit - 10-16-2016
(10-16-2016, 10:12 PM)Valeera Wrote: This is an odd decision, and I'm curious to see if it stands once Koji comments on the various errors present in the book.
Oh God, if it turns out to be a typo from 300 I'm gonna... throw something.
Probably a party for my poor dragoon friends? xD