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+--- Thread: RPC -- Who are we? (/showthread.php?tid=28)
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Kylin - 03-17-2010
Regarding the past: While I think everyone has forgiven past events (I've spoken with many privately to ensure as much), forgetting it is another thing. And we shouldn't forget. When I bring up past events as examples, I do so because history tends to repeat itself, even if the people involved are different. We should use our past experiences to learn and grow rather than simply discard them.
I think Verence put it all very well. And by the looks of it, everyone seems to agree that the RPC shouldn't wield much authority at all but should reserve a tiny bit just in case things get ugly at some point. Regarding standards/etiquette, I foresee them being more of something to fall back on rather than something to enforce. By the sounds of it, most want the RPC to be more of a resource and outlet and less of a full blown organization. I think any "rules" we do put in place will likely end up non-RP related (such as how to handle drama that encompasses the entire community).
I also feel I should caution everyone about using other RP coalitions to set our foundation. While it's good to look to them as models, it's ultimately imperative that we forge our own individual identity. It's sort of like comparing the US to the UK. While we have the same language and similiar cultural trends, the populations have very different needs and priorities.
All of this being said, the last couple pages or so of this topic have been dominated by a small handful of coalition members. This is in turn overwhelming and intimidating others from posting. I'm personally going to remove myself from this thread for at least a couple days and encourage anyone else who's been an active voice to do the same. This gives everyone else a chance to play catch up and perhaps post something of their own. The last thing we want is an inner circle of influential people forming and setting the groundwork on everything. That would be counterproductive to the entire concept of a coalition. Let's face it. As awesome as it is to reach 5 pages on a discussion, it's only been two days. I'm sure that's a LOT to take in for a lot of people xD
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - River - 03-18-2010
Castiel Wrote:I also feel I should caution everyone about using other RP coalitions to set our foundation. While it's good to look to them as models, it's ultimately imperative that we forge our own individual identity. It's sort of like comparing the US to the UK. While we have the same language and similar cultural trends, the populations have very different needs and priorities.
I think that this is a very good point. While I appreciate learning about other coalitions and the ways that RP is set up in other games, I would rather we all create a new and unique experience in FFXIV, rather than cookie-cutter mold to something that may have had to deal with a whole separate way of gaming. We have to face the fact that the Final Fantasy online games are much, much smaller than, say, WoW, and deal with a different gaming style. Sure, we can learn plenty from other MMORPG role-play communities, but in the end, we need to make something that is our own.
Castiel Wrote:All of this being said, the last couple pages or so of this topic have been dominated by a small handful of coalition members. This is in turn overwhelming and intimidating others from posting.
Another very good point. FFXIV is still a long way from a full release. We have plenty of time to ruminate on the points that have been made and brought up, and I encourage those that haven't spoken up to feel free to do so. I am in complete agreement with all of Verence's points (thank you), but look forward to hearing from others' points of view. At the moment, it seems a few of us are just chasing our tails.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Dogberry - 03-18-2010
Verence Wrote:The chief reason this is a concern to me is because in the past, I've forced my characters to avoid conflicts they would have otherwise leapt straight into for the purely OOC reason that I knew it would be a pain to settle with those involved.
"Quiet, Verence, the adults are talking."
Damn, that kid was cocky.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Smiling River - 03-18-2010
I had a wall of text outlined, but I deleted it to just make it short and sweet. I'm hung over xD
The RPC should have a bunch of suggestions from past experiences put up somewhere that's for sure. This goes along with not forgetting the past but using it to perhaps prevent some fallout. But yeah largely the event organizers should probably mention something about specific RP rules to follow at their gathering, if any.
The debate on how much structure/power the RPC will have:
I think starting off with very little is the way to go. The people who will be the maintenance crew here need jobs too, which would be to add certain rules when necessary. Starting with a clean slate in this new game and adapting as problems arise. It's easier to add regulations little by little as needed than to start with a whole bunch assuming that they will be useful. If all is well and the community runs as smooth as some people predict, then nothing will be added and everyone wins.
Personally I am one of those that think we will need moderate regulation in place. Using my limited knowledge of political science, a good example would be the US. Started with independent states and very weak federal government, but as history took it's course turned out that we needed stronger federal laws to make all the states, nay the Union, run better.
Tangents pulse from my fingertips like serpents in all directions.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Dogberry - 03-18-2010
Mason Wrote:Personally I am one of those that think we will need moderate regulation in place. Using my limited knowledge of political science, a good example would be the US. Started with independent states and very weak federal government, but as history took it's course turned out that we needed stronger federal laws to make all the states, nay the Union, run better.
That's a bad metaphor, as is the UN comparison we've been joking about. You can't make direct comparisons between real life politics and a video game. The United States gave more power to the Federal government out of many complicated socio-economic and political issues that arose along the process of nationhood over two-hundred-some-odd years. If the RPC ever has to make decisions like that then the FFXIV community at large is doing it very, very wrong. Likewise, nations aren't members of the United Nations because they want a place to role play. They're in it for diplomatic purposes that will help further their own countries interest. Should the RPC ever become an organization that is chartered with preventing a world war then I'm probably going to go play another game.
We are not dealing with governments here. We're here for fun. That is the only thing that is going to hold this place together. The minute people stop having fun is the minute the RPC is useless. If you're right, and the RPC needs to start moderating the RP community it will have already been too late. We'll have to have become an organization that will tell people to stop having fun because we have rules about these things, don't you know?
But if we're going to be nation building here, can I be Benjamin Franklin? He was awesome.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Nanapariri - 03-18-2010
Thanks guys for clearing that up for me. I can see really most of us have the same basic idea really.
Cast: If you feel I've posted too much I'll stop for awhile after this post.
Quote:Regarding the past: While I think everyone has forgiven past events (I've spoken with many privately to ensure as much), forgetting it is another thing. And we shouldn't forget. When I bring up past events as examples, I do so because history tends to repeat itself, even if the people involved are different. We should use our past experiences to learn and grow rather than simply discard them.
When you guys mention a fear its a good measure of if the fear is valid or not to see if that sort of thing has happened in a community similiar to what you want to try out. I'm just asking you guys to consider examples of things more similiar. I see a good chunk of folks who seem to think that just because FF is part of the name of this new game their experience will be exactly the same as their server on FFXI. At the most, in FFXI, I think most of us only had maybe 3 other RP Guilds at any given time that lasted any length of time and hardly had anything to do with eachother so comparing what we want to do here, which my understanding is we want more than 3 Guilds all working together, isn't that effective.
I'm concerened that is seems the over-all feeling of many here seem to feel that its impossible for the RPC to succeed. People will just be running around god-modding and being immature. You yourself Cast have said in more than one place that the coalition won't last a year which is a terrible mind-set to have going into a project like this.
Quote:I also feel I should caution everyone about using other RP coalitions to set our foundation. While it's good to look to them as models, it's ultimately imperative that we forge our own individual identity. It's sort of like comparing the US to the UK. While we have the same language and similiar cultural trends, the populations have very different needs and priorities.
To me comparing the FFXI community to a large coalition is like comparing apples to oranges. I have done some cross-guild things on FFXI just as it seems some of you have, but in no way do I think that a few isolated insisdences is a good measuring stick to construct a charter for a large community. Comparing a community like Starsider to what the goal of the RPC has is like comparing a mandarin orange to a florida orange. I'm just concerned that some people seem unwilling to accept anything other than their own experience in one server on one game while discrediting statements made regarding other games (SWG and WOW) that have had successful much larger communites. I'm seeing remarks to the effect that "well that group was too lenient for the people I know will be playing FFXIV since only people from FFXI will be there forming our community and they are all immature god-modders". Don't expect this since it is a different game and some people that play FFXI may not like or play it. Some people from that WOW community or Starsider could even try it so constructing a community that only FFXI Rpers would like is equally bad.
Starsider was a united community of upwards of 15 guilds going all at once plus some freelancers with no guild. Looking at what they've implemented that has worked, as well as that EQ group and Thraydon's experience in WOW, and seeing that a large group is able to deal with the problems that can and will happen without needing some huge list of rules proves a large and healthly RPC is possible. Everyone here seems convinced the RPC will be small or will fall apart. SWG and WOW are both very different communities but Thraydon has expressed some of the exact same expereinces I have. There are only probably 70-100 Rpers in SWG so its not a big and large group as I think you all believe and I don't know how many are in WOW. If two entirely different games have had a similiar experience then I think its safe to view those similairties as what is average for a large RP Community.
I'm not expecting the RPC to be just like Starsider I'm just relating information that I feel is valid for consideration. I'm also not expecting RPC to be just like FFXI. Like you said it will be its own community. Everyone should keep that in mind and not dwell on FFXI so much.
On fears that too much freedom gives free-reign to god-moders:
I'm with you on over the top things but I have RPed with people like that, and despite the weird issue (let's say blue skin) they were nice people, surprisingly mature, and I had fun. There were those people on Starsider but people were mature enough to just not RP with people who do things we don't like.
There might be a place here for those people, I know on Starsider there were 2 guilds that were way out there as far as the community was concerned, and they often felt the rest of us were being "elistist" but we still managed to get along. They came to the events but didn't do anything there they knew would prevent others from enjoying it.
Though I personally don't generally like those things if we try to make standards for a community that exclude certain characters we would be taking a bad step for creating a community with a good reputation that others want to join. Those preferences should be left to personal preferences "on a citizens type post" or rules for a private guild.
I did "Jedi RP" while on Starsider that had a bad name because of a few god-modders etc and canon Nazi feeling even a small group hiding wasn't time appropriate. Those people avoided us, or in many cases we were so good at hiding, had no idea we were a Lightside Guild. My point in relating this is just because some idiots try to justify using an excuse to god-mod or Mary Sue don't think the majority of people will. In my experience these people slit their own throats and leave of their own free will when they alienate everyone else by their actions so there is no need to try and keep them out.
Quote:I might edit my post in the 'About Me' area to reflect these opinions, or might it be a good idea to create a thread to outline what we want to see and what we do not want to see? I can see how this might closely border recruitment, but maybe when it is closer to the time to begin segmenting off such a thread would be helpful for those intending to be leaders. Just a thought!
I think this would be a good idea, and way to summarize what we've all talked about and the different points of view we can bring to the table for consideration.
Quote:I think starting off with very little is the way to go. The people who will be the maintenance crew here need jobs too, which would be to add certain rules when necessary. Starting with a clean slate in this new game and adapting as problems arise. It's easier to add regulations little by little as needed than to start with a whole bunch assuming that they will be useful. If all is well and the community runs as smooth as some people predict, then nothing will be added and everyone wins.
Personally I am one of those that think we will need moderate regulation in place. Using my limited knowledge of political science, a good example would be the US. Started with independent states and very weak federal government, but as history took it's course turned out that we needed stronger federal laws to make all the states, nay the Union, run better.
I also think this is the intelligent way to go. Making a bunch of rules because of issues that we fear might happen based on experience up front is a bit like the woman whose teenage daughter ran away from home so she chained her other two children to their beds in their rooms. I remember in the news when the woman was asked why she said she didn't want the other kids running away like the first one. Please lets not imprison the RPC folks because of a few jerks we've met in the past.
The whole reason for setting standards and having a body that regularly meets is so that adjustments can be made to meet the needs of the RPC going forward. Start out expecting the best and ammend the rules based on actual real happenings not feared possible future happenings. Start with some basic things and only add other things if needed.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Smiling River - 03-18-2010
Obviously it's not a direct comparison, in fact it was a very loose, half-serious one at best. And yes of course the bottom line is to have fun while playing a video game.
The core of what I said isn't in that silly comparison, in fact that's just my take on what can happen down the road. I hope for the best but prepare for the worst. In this case too my idea is to just give it a shot with loose guidelines, this coalition itself bearing no power but at least having the ability to eventually add firmer measures should they be needed.
Fun is relative, just like time
Not everyone can just have fun together, sometimes you need a little regulation to make sure that everyone can have fun. Sure, it's more fun when you have fun your way completely, but I think everyone can give up 10-15% of fun for server-wide events just so we can all enjoy each others company. That's just my personal opinion and a hypothesis of how things might pan out.For now though, def no direct regulation on behalf of RPC. We'll learn as we go along. It'd be cool if I am wrong and everyone is happy just like in that other community Tsumi mentioned before.
That being said, dibs on Thomas Paine.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Dogberry - 03-18-2010
Well, my thing is, we're not going to have any authority to do anything to anyone who disagrees with our intervention unless they're outright breaking SE's terms of service. We shouldn't even try to moderate because we don't even have a means of enforcing our own moderation beyond "well you can't play with us anymore so nyah." It makes us look a little too big for our britches.
And yeah, you can be Thomas Paine. Who wants to be Jefferson? We got any takers on John Adams?
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Nanapariri - 03-18-2010
Quote:Well, my thing is, we're not going to have any authority to do anything to anyone who disagrees with our intervention unless they're outright breaking SE's terms of service. We shouldn't even try to moderate because we don't even have a means of enforcing our own moderation beyond "well you can't play with us anymore so nyah." It makes us look a little too big for our britches.
Ok one more post:
I mean the exact opposite that you do Dogberry. Think about the following questions:
1) Will one isolated guy pretending to be Ang from Avataar destroy the entire RP community? Cause people to leave the game? Post on Alla "I can't believe those people on Cid server tolerate that terrible behavior"? Isn't it only a minor annoyance in comaprison to rampant god-modding?
2) Name one large issue that is not in the TOS that will cause a massive exodus and discontent. The TOS covers major issues like harrasment in game so how can we do better in stopping harrassment in game than a GM that can suspend them?
3) What is the only thing the RPC would have direct control of to use as a diciplinary measure? Isn't it membership in the RPC and the Board? If we expell someone from the RPC can that stop them from harrasing members in game? If we can't suspend people from the game how isn't telling a GM that can or /blacklisting them not a valid way to control the only thing we can?
Basically I'm just saying only make rules you can actually enforce that actually will harm or damage a person's expereince in game. Concentrate on those things just in case rather than allowing or not allowing other RP styles. Honestly I think believing we can control or stop more than is possible to within our power than we actually can would be more "getting to big for our britches" than leaving some things for a Guild or SE to deal with.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Dogberry - 03-18-2010
Can I ask you what it is you think I'm advocating? I'm not being a smartass, I genuinely want to know if I come off like I'm saying we should devise ways to punish people. I'm pretty sure that whatever I've said in this thread it isn't that.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Nanapariri - 03-18-2010
Dogberry Wrote:Can I ask you what it is you think I'm advocating? I'm not being a smartass, I genuinely want to know if I come off like I'm saying we should devise ways to punish people. I'm pretty sure that whatever I've said in this thread it isn't that.
I was responding to this:
Quote:Well, my thing is, we're not going to have any authority to do anything to anyone who disagrees with our intervention unless they're outright breaking SE's terms of service.
This seemed to me to mean there are other punishable offences than those in the TOS that the RPC must deal with and we need to be able to punish people that disagree with us. My point was is not all disagreements are so dire we have to deal with it and we won't be able to stop people's behavior in other forums and IG if they do.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Dogberry - 03-18-2010
Funny how you missed this:
Dogberry Wrote:We shouldn't even try to moderate because we don't even have a means of enforcing our own moderation beyond "well you can't play with us anymore so nyah." It makes us look a little too big for our britches.
Edit to add:
and this:
Dogberry Wrote:If you're right, and the RPC needs to start moderating the RP community it will have already been too late. We'll have to have become an organization that will tell people to stop having fun because we have rules about these things, don't you know?
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Smiling River - 03-18-2010
I think you guys are both saying the same thing.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Dogberry - 03-18-2010
So then you can understand my confusion.
Re: RPC -- Who are we? - Nanapariri - 03-18-2010
Dogberry Wrote:Funny how you missed this:
Dogberry Wrote:We shouldn't even try to moderate because we don't even have a means of enforcing our own moderation beyond "well you can't play with us anymore so nyah." It makes us look a little too big for our britches.
Edit to add:
and this:
Dogberry Wrote:If you're right, and the RPC needs to start moderating the RP community it will have already been too late. We'll have to have become an organization that will tell people to stop having fun because we have rules about these things, don't you know?
My bad... I didn't think you were serious about that statement. Though I did address it, but evidently not clearly enough:
Quote:3) What is the only thing the RPC would have direct control of to use as a diciplinary measure? Isn't it membership in the RPC and the Board? If we expell someone from the RPC can that stop them from harrasing members in game? If we can't suspend people from the game how isn't telling a GM that can or /blacklisting them not a valid way to control the only thing we can?
We absolutely can control who uses this forum and who is a member of the community by banning them. We have control but not absolute god-like control. I mean those to be questions to think about as to what we can control as being what our focus is on.
You seemed to be saying we have control over nothing.
EDIT: Also I wasn't directly meaning your post on a couple of those just most of what I used was based on your post.
The Ang was because I think Kes and some other seem to feel we should limit membership with the same sort of criteria a guild would trying to make the whole community have the same RP style in effect. I'm saying why worry about small things like that.
The other thing I was trying to say is having a guild deal with some things and using the system SE has in place are vailid ways to deal with big issues.