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How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Printable Version

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RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Hammersmith - 06-08-2015

As will be revealed in some stuff in Hammer's journal thread, he knows a little about guns.

He knows how to "cheat" people using them and considers pretty much anything as fair play against someone throwing a lead ball at super-sonic speeds at a fleshy target.

So, of course, it's a lethal kind of "Cheat"

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Zyrusticae - 06-08-2015

Well, my answer on this topic remains mostly unchanged:

1. Armor made out of exotic materials and charged with aether provided by materia and magic. Real-world armor need not apply.

2. Final Fantasy-style supernatural toughness, also fueled by aether. I mean, if you can take a Fire III to the face and survive, I don't see how a bullet or a bunch of shotgun pellets would be any different.

3. Final Fantasy-style 'Move Like Cloud' agility, also fueled by aether. Aether aether aether aether aether aether aether. Seriously tho, just dodge them bullets, what are you, a pleb?

4. Joestar Family Secret Technique: RUN AWAAAAAYYY!! If none of the above apply to you, who says you need to stick around to get your face blown off? Nothing beats a hasty retreat - save for an equally or more hasty chase, anyway. Just make sure you put a few obstacles between you and the source of those terrifyingly nasty flying shells.

5. Diplomacy. Wait, why's this gunman wanna gun someone as cute as you down, anyway? Surely we can all work this out? There's no need for violence.

And them's muh 2c.

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Hyrist - 06-08-2015

Too early to tell. Depends entirely on the substence of the 'bullets'.

If the bullets themselves are just charges of aether without a solid object to be propelled, than it can be defended in most ways a spell can.

But remember we're a Japanese RPG, so parrying bullets is quite feasible in most RP situations. Not to mention bullets shot from Heirsbane were punched, absorbed and redirected in canon cutscenes. So this isn't something beyond defensible like it is in real life.

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? - TheFanciestBard - 06-08-2015

As stated a few times in the thread, plate armor is still among the most efficient armors to date and its decline had nothing to do with the rise of firearms at the time. Even lowly (By fantasy standards) steel plate could deal with firearms and with the crazy materials we have at our disposal, such as mythril, Wootz, and Allagan crap, it's pretty safe to say that anyone who wears plate is not going to be easy pickings. A skilled fighter in a well fitted suit of armor is pretty darn hard to kill, firearms or not. The main issue is well... Cost, basically.

But this is a world where everyone who is an adventurer can afford fitted armor of their choosing so ultimately anyone who wants to walk around in heavy plate is only going to be taken down by agile exploitation of their armor's natural weakpoints, such as joints, and magic. No one around here is going to have a 4 foot long 50 caliber steel penetrating sniper rifle and people who do I'm probably not going to associate with.

Of course this is all moot since my character's armor is like.. Small amounts of plate with mainly leather and fur. Tasa will not have fun digging bullets out of her hide.

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Hammersmith - 06-08-2015

Yeah.  One of the bigger points of plate was that it was MUCH EASIER to raise an army of rifle-users than it was to get an entire army of plate users.  Then you ran into mobility and the like and it meant the rifle users had more immediate lethality that was easier to train than a longbow. (The english did so well with theirs because every male, supposedly, was at some point required to train with it every day after church, punishable by...something...if you missed)

Guns arn't "worse" than an archer really, since in RP you're not going to be mustering entire platoons of them onto the field.

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Aduu Avagnar - 06-09-2015

(06-08-2015, 08:35 PM)Hammersmith Wrote: Yeah.  One of the bigger points of plate was that it was MUCH EASIER to raise an army of rifle-users than it was to get an entire army of plate users.  Then you ran into mobility and the like and it meant the rifle users had more immediate lethality that was easier to train than a longbow. (The english did so well with theirs because every male, supposedly, was at some point required to train with it every day after church, punishable by...something...if you missed)

Guns arn't "worse" than an archer really, since in RP you're not going to be mustering entire platoons of them onto the field.
plate armour, when correctly fitted, didn't present much in the way of a hinderance to mobility. It was pretty much a second skin or extension of the body, with greater range of movement than the person inside.

However, yes, it is a hell of a lot easier, and cheaper to equip an army with musket/arquebus/longbow etc.

Also, our longbowmen, (as featured in Agincourt and other such fights) were predominantly Welsh.

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Hammersmith - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 10:37 AM)Nako Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 08:35 PM)Hammersmith Wrote: Yeah.  One of the bigger points of plate was that it was MUCH EASIER to raise an army of rifle-users than it was to get an entire army of plate users.  Then you ran into mobility and the like and it meant the rifle users had more immediate lethality that was easier to train than a longbow. (The english did so well with theirs because every male, supposedly, was at some point required to train with it every day after church, punishable by...something...if you missed)

Guns arn't "worse" than an archer really, since in RP you're not going to be mustering entire platoons of them onto the field.
plate armour, when correctly fitted, didn't present much in the way of a hinderance to mobility. It was pretty much a second skin or extension of the body, with greater range of movement than the person inside.

However, yes, it is a hell of a lot easier, and cheaper to equip an army with musket/arquebus/longbow etc.

Also, our longbowmen, (as featured in Agincourt and other such fights) were predominantly Welsh.

You're right, though only if we're not talking about jousting plate or Full plate .  Well fitted infantry plate (not full plate) weighed anywhere from 10-25 pounds for a set (Jousting plate was over 50, but was MUCH heavier).  It also wasn't full body and it sure as hell wasn't a second skin.  Mind you it stayed in use for a verrrrry long time because, well, steel stops a lot of stuff from killing you.

Hell, they were still using plate curiasses in WWI, 5lb steel breastplates, and they were effective, as long as you didn't get hit in a limb or a head.

If we're talking about regular infantry plate? Yeah.  Mobility wise you're still going to have guys running around in 10-25 lbs more weight than a similarly fitted guy, at range, carrying 1o-25 lbs less kit than you, which means they can proooobably run, all things being even, quite a bit longer and further than you can.  It's not perfect, but it's mobility.  I know we ignore RL mechanics in FF but from a pure RL perspective, that does weight a guy down and affect what maneuvers a group can manage over the course of a battle.  Fresh troops in a sprint probably wouldn't have cared much or seen much effect though, to that degree.  Dudes in plate charging a line of arquebusses were going to ruin someone's gun-toting day if they didn't have support, for sure.

tldr; You're wrong about Full and Jousting plate, the plate we 'traditionally' think of as full, massive armor sets.  You're right about lesser, more mass produced versions of plate maille, which were very much mass produced sets of curiasses, not full body plate armor sets (but would still have been a bitch for bullets to fuck with)

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Yangh - 06-09-2015

I have to admit, I didn't know almost any of what I just learned about armour in the last 5 or so replies. Pretty fascinating stuff actually!

But back on topic, well, further back on topic, I guess! In this universe we inhabit... I think a lot of us are Aetherically inclined when it comes to combat so on the issue of armour? I consider it a non-issue simply because in this game world Aether seems to trump all.

So I echo my previous post; If you're capable enough it doesn't matter one way or another!

That said, not everyone is, of course. So some beefy armour is going to be nice either way.

Of course... if we combine armour AND aether?! That'd be something... until a talented -insert class / job / master race (Monk)- comes along and punches holes through your good time, your logic and your armour!

So yeah... deal with them as ingeniously as you can! Be warned, though. Prophecy speaks of an aetherically inclined Machinist, talented to the gills and all around a bad ass will appear before us...

Then we're really screwed. ;w;

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Aduu Avagnar - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 11:24 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 10:37 AM)Nako Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 08:35 PM)Hammersmith Wrote: Yeah.  One of the bigger points of plate was that it was MUCH EASIER to raise an army of rifle-users than it was to get an entire army of plate users.  Then you ran into mobility and the like and it meant the rifle users had more immediate lethality that was easier to train than a longbow. (The english did so well with theirs because every male, supposedly, was at some point required to train with it every day after church, punishable by...something...if you missed)

Guns arn't "worse" than an archer really, since in RP you're not going to be mustering entire platoons of them onto the field.
plate armour, when correctly fitted, didn't present much in the way of a hinderance to mobility. It was pretty much a second skin or extension of the body, with greater range of movement than the person inside.

However, yes, it is a hell of a lot easier, and cheaper to equip an army with musket/arquebus/longbow etc.

Also, our longbowmen, (as featured in Agincourt and other such fights) were predominantly Welsh.

You're right, though only if we're not talking about jousting plate or Full plate .  Well fitted infantry plate (not full plate) weighed anywhere from 10-25 pounds for a set (Jousting plate was over 50, but was MUCH heavier).  It also wasn't full body and it sure as hell wasn't a second skin.  Mind you it stayed in use for a verrrrry long time because, well, steel stops a lot of stuff from killing you.

Hell, they were still using plate curiasses in WWI, 5lb steel breastplates, and they were effective, as long as you didn't get hit in a limb or a head.

If we're talking about regular infantry plate? Yeah.  Mobility wise you're still going to have guys running around in 10-25 lbs more weight than a similarly fitted guy, at range, carrying 1o-25 lbs less kit than you, which means they can proooobably run, all things being even, quite a bit longer and further than you can.  It's not perfect, but it's mobility.  I know we ignore RL mechanics in FF but from a pure RL perspective, that does weight a guy down and affect what maneuvers a group can manage over the course of a battle.  Fresh troops in a sprint probably wouldn't have cared much or seen much effect though, to that degree.  Dudes in plate charging a line of arquebusses were going to ruin someone's gun-toting day if they didn't have support, for sure.

tldr; You're wrong about Full and Jousting plate, the plate we 'traditionally' think of as full, massive armor sets.  You're right about lesser, more mass produced versions of plate maille, which were very much mass produced sets of curiasses, not full body plate armor sets (but would still have been a bitch for bullets to fuck with)
A well fitted suit of plate, that is, full plate. Weighed roughly 15-25kg. The mobility factor wasn't an issue, sure its an extra 25lbs, but due to the way it is distributed over the body, the impact was only an issue on elongated fights. You can run, jump, sprint and climb in it.

Which bit was I wrong about?

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Cailean Lockwood - 06-09-2015

This has been a very informative thread.
Since it is a fantasy world, I've always taken the whole "guns and bullets" thing rather light-heartedly. I can imagine normal civilians would have trouble surviving a bullet, but if yur character wears some good armour or have some awesome skills or magic, avoiding being hit by a bullet shouldn't be that much of a problem.

I mean, if a real-life samurai was/is able to avoid a bullet and cut it in half with his katana, I don't see why something like that can't happen in a fantasy setting.

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Hammersmith - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 11:38 AM)Nako Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 11:24 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 10:37 AM)Nako Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 08:35 PM)Hammersmith Wrote: Yeah.  One of the bigger points of plate was that it was MUCH EASIER to raise an army of rifle-users than it was to get an entire army of plate users.  Then you ran into mobility and the like and it meant the rifle users had more immediate lethality that was easier to train than a longbow. (The english did so well with theirs because every male, supposedly, was at some point required to train with it every day after church, punishable by...something...if you missed)

Guns arn't "worse" than an archer really, since in RP you're not going to be mustering entire platoons of them onto the field.
plate armour, when correctly fitted, didn't present much in the way of a hinderance to mobility. It was pretty much a second skin or extension of the body, with greater range of movement than the person inside.

However, yes, it is a hell of a lot easier, and cheaper to equip an army with musket/arquebus/longbow etc.

Also, our longbowmen, (as featured in Agincourt and other such fights) were predominantly Welsh.

You're right, though only if we're not talking about jousting plate or Full plate .  Well fitted infantry plate (not full plate) weighed anywhere from 10-25 pounds for a set (Jousting plate was over 50, but was MUCH heavier).  It also wasn't full body and it sure as hell wasn't a second skin.  Mind you it stayed in use for a verrrrry long time because, well, steel stops a lot of stuff from killing you.

Hell, they were still using plate curiasses in WWI, 5lb steel breastplates, and they were effective, as long as you didn't get hit in a limb or a head.

If we're talking about regular infantry plate? Yeah.  Mobility wise you're still going to have guys running around in 10-25 lbs more weight than a similarly fitted guy, at range, carrying 1o-25 lbs less kit than you, which means they can proooobably run, all things being even, quite a bit longer and further than you can.  It's not perfect, but it's mobility.  I know we ignore RL mechanics in FF but from a pure RL perspective, that does weight a guy down and affect what maneuvers a group can manage over the course of a battle.  Fresh troops in a sprint probably wouldn't have cared much or seen much effect though, to that degree.  Dudes in plate charging a line of arquebusses were going to ruin someone's gun-toting day if they didn't have support, for sure.

tldr; You're wrong about Full and Jousting plate, the plate we 'traditionally' think of as full, massive armor sets.  You're right about lesser, more mass produced versions of plate maille, which were very much mass produced sets of curiasses, not full body plate armor sets (but would still have been a bitch for bullets to fuck with)
A well fitted suit of plate, that is, full plate. Weighed roughly 15-25kg. The mobility factor wasn't an issue, sure its an extra 25lbs, but due to the way it is distributed over the body, the impact was only an issue on elongated fights. You can run, jump, sprint and climb in it.

Which bit was I wrong about?

What you're calling full plate I call plate, so it's splitting hairs.  We're both right since we agree on the same points!

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Aduu Avagnar - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 11:54 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 11:38 AM)Nako Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 11:24 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 10:37 AM)Nako Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 08:35 PM)Hammersmith Wrote: Yeah.  One of the bigger points of plate was that it was MUCH EASIER to raise an army of rifle-users than it was to get an entire army of plate users.  Then you ran into mobility and the like and it meant the rifle users had more immediate lethality that was easier to train than a longbow. (The english did so well with theirs because every male, supposedly, was at some point required to train with it every day after church, punishable by...something...if you missed)

Guns arn't "worse" than an archer really, since in RP you're not going to be mustering entire platoons of them onto the field.
plate armour, when correctly fitted, didn't present much in the way of a hinderance to mobility. It was pretty much a second skin or extension of the body, with greater range of movement than the person inside.

However, yes, it is a hell of a lot easier, and cheaper to equip an army with musket/arquebus/longbow etc.

Also, our longbowmen, (as featured in Agincourt and other such fights) were predominantly Welsh.

You're right, though only if we're not talking about jousting plate or Full plate .  Well fitted infantry plate (not full plate) weighed anywhere from 10-25 pounds for a set (Jousting plate was over 50, but was MUCH heavier).  It also wasn't full body and it sure as hell wasn't a second skin.  Mind you it stayed in use for a verrrrry long time because, well, steel stops a lot of stuff from killing you.

Hell, they were still using plate curiasses in WWI, 5lb steel breastplates, and they were effective, as long as you didn't get hit in a limb or a head.

If we're talking about regular infantry plate? Yeah.  Mobility wise you're still going to have guys running around in 10-25 lbs more weight than a similarly fitted guy, at range, carrying 1o-25 lbs less kit than you, which means they can proooobably run, all things being even, quite a bit longer and further than you can.  It's not perfect, but it's mobility.  I know we ignore RL mechanics in FF but from a pure RL perspective, that does weight a guy down and affect what maneuvers a group can manage over the course of a battle.  Fresh troops in a sprint probably wouldn't have cared much or seen much effect though, to that degree.  Dudes in plate charging a line of arquebusses were going to ruin someone's gun-toting day if they didn't have support, for sure.

tldr; You're wrong about Full and Jousting plate, the plate we 'traditionally' think of as full, massive armor sets.  You're right about lesser, more mass produced versions of plate maille, which were very much mass produced sets of curiasses, not full body plate armor sets (but would still have been a bitch for bullets to fuck with)
A well fitted suit of plate, that is, full plate. Weighed roughly 15-25kg. The mobility factor wasn't an issue, sure its an extra 25lbs, but due to the way it is distributed over the body, the impact was only an issue on elongated fights. You can run, jump, sprint and climb in it.

Which bit was I wrong about?

What you're calling full plate I call plate, so it's splitting hairs.  We're both right since we agree on the same points!
a full plate harness, as in full body covering from helmet to sabatons

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Nadine Marteau - 06-09-2015

(06-08-2015, 08:35 PM)Hammersmith Wrote: (The english did so well with theirs because every male, supposedly, was at some point required to train with it every day after church, punishable by...something...if you missed)

Guns arn't "worse" than an archer really, since in RP you're not going to be mustering entire platoons of them onto the field.

Interesting to note unrelatedly, but the law that required every English citizen to own and train with a bow is still on the books to this day. (Obviously not enforced.)

Anyway, I don't see guns as that big a gamechanger.  As noted, most the difference from other projectile weapons are only notable on a large scale. As awesome as a mass battle RP would be, simply duels in my experience can be a headache enough to manage, so I don't see anything of the sort happening ever.

What one may want to be more concerned about is the accessibility of personal handheld explosives (i.e. grenades).  It would be an absolute gamechanger.

Would be, if not for one thing: Magic exists. Anything firearms and gunpowder can do, magic has been doing already. Arcanists can warp a knight's body with aether no matter how much armor he wears, and grenades don't hold a torch to the destructive firepower of a thaumaturge. In small scale fights, I feel magic would trump technology.

But I imagine mages are even costlier and riskier to field than armored fighters in largescale battle, but any average joe can be trained to light a fuse and use a gun, so that makes gunpowder win out again. Moreover, it gives the common man the ability to effectively fight large-scale threats such as dragons, previously the realm of specially trained hunters and adventurers. (i.e. us)

I don't see the presence of guns and explosives being a gamechanger for the RP environment unless your character is a naval or military officer. In which case, you may want to look into powder-based siege weapons such as cannons if you've not already and see about training your ranged infantry in firearms.  On a military and even economical level, the presence of these weapons will change the world greatly. However, on the personal scale, firearms and explosives don't really add too much that isn't alredy there.

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Chris Ganale - 06-09-2015

I think an interesting--and almost certainly inflammatory--point to consider is the exact opposite end of the spectrum: will it go to the extreme that people trivialize guns to the point that a toddler with a brick is considered a greater threat? I've already seen indications by browsing this thread that some people are implying exactly that.

RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - TheLastCandle - 06-09-2015

That hasn't been my takeaway from the thread. I see people treating them as being about as dangerous as a Thaumaturge throwing fire and calling down lightning. The only thing making them potentially more dangerous than your token renegade mage is accessibility - which may or may not be an issue, depending on the lore behind the specific firearms machinists will be using.