+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: FFXIV Lore Q/A (/showthread.php?tid=11931)
RE: FFXIV Lore Q/A - V'aleera - 06-09-2015
My comment was not disrespectful of the localization team, or dismissive of their role. They have a place at the table when it comes to how the lore is conceived and created and that's fine.
But I will not take as word of God what an unsupervised worker with a mouthful of rice or soba said to a random Tumblr poster that did not even bother to transcribe the words as they were spoken.
Live letters are Word of God.
Forum posts from the community and localization team members permitted and vetted to post are Word of God.
Panel answers by vetted members of the localization teams are Word of God.
Steve the localization guy chatting with a fan at lunch about work is not Word of God. At most it gives some credible insight into author intent, which is still far removed from Word of God.
RE: FFXIV Lore Q/A - Gone. - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 12:02 AM)Intaki Wrote: My comment was not disrespectful of the localization team, or dismissive of their role. They have a place at the table when it comes to how the lore is conceived and created and that's fine.
But I will not take as word of God what an unsupervised worker with a mouthful of rice or soba said to a random Tumblr poster that did not even bother to transcribe the words as they were spoken.
Live letters are Word of God.
Forum posts from the community and localization team members permitted and vetted to post are Word of God.
Panel answers by vetted members of the localization teams are Word of God.
Steve the localization guy chatting with a fan at lunch about work is not Word of God. At most it gives some credible insight into author intent, which is still far removed from Word of God.
My point, that as always, is completely and utterly ignored.
I really don't care who writes what or who works for who, the bottom line is Tumblr is not a valid source for any information unless it is the absolute official blog for the related subject.
This isn't going to stop people from RPing out fantasias. Honestly all I can do at this point is be brash and say 'deal with it', because nothing is going to change and frankly, outside of an amount of people I can count on my hands, no one cares.
RE: FFXIV Lore Q/A - Flickering Ember - 06-09-2015
The thing about lore is that it isn't concrete. It isn't a textbook that you can pick up and educate yourself on the undisputed facts of Eorzea/Hydaelyn. It's closer to picking up the Bible--everyone has a different interpretation on it. Two different roleplayers could be looking at the same paragraph of lore (I dunno, could be about a place or magic or Ul'dah customs) and those two different roleplayers are going to argue/discuss on these forums, theoretically, about how they are different and which interpretation is more accurate.
Hence why I've become increasingly dismissive of terms such as 'lore compliant' or 'lore following' etc. It doesn't mean much. Lore sources are subjective too. What is an acceptable lore source? I could argue myself that minion and mount descriptions don't count as lore since they're all ridiculous anyway. But no, really, I do think you are in your right to not see the tumblr infos as word of god.
I do so because social media is very entrenched in our society at this point and it isn't the first time I've seen lore spread around this way. (Twitter lore tidbits for example) We have so little in FFXIV that it is understandable that people would chomp at anything like that.
In the end, I don't feel as though the tumblr info should be used to say "No! You can't RP out fantasia!" but rather open dialogues such as : "How plausible is fantasia use out in the world?" "Is there more to it?" "What are the benefits and negatives of using it in our RP?" "Are there alternative methods of shape-shifting?" "What does fantasia mean for the RPC community?"
I've also personally seen fantasia as a good source of RP when it doesn't matter how that person transformed but that they did so. In the end, probably the real problem with fantasia potion is its widespread use in RP. That's just not something we can fix, as you noted. We can't help what's popular.
RE: FFXIV Lore Q/A - Sin - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 10:08 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote: The thing about lore is that it isn't concrete. It isn't a textbook that you can pick up and educate yourself on the undisputed facts of Eorzea/Hydaelyn. It's closer to picking up the Bible--everyone has a different interpretation on it. Two different roleplayers could be looking at the same paragraph of lore (I dunno, could be about a place or magic or Ul'dah customs) and those two different roleplayers are going to argue/discuss on these forums, theoretically, about how they are different and which interpretation is more accurate.
I think that's partly true, and certainly a big part of what entertains me as a lore nerd is discussing the grey between the lines. And boy, does FFXIV have grey between the lines...
With that being said however, there is an immutable, non-debatable core presented within works of fiction, and certainly presented in our chosen game. A term like lore compliant -should- mean abiding by that core. Though I admit it can be corrupted and twisted into meaning anyone that abides by the the core and the particular set of interpretations of the person. Unfortunately, this happens time and time again.
Regardless, on topic, people are free to roleplay or -not- roleplay whatever they wish. I agree that discussions over lunch about lore with the localization team while interesting and awesome should be taken with a grain of salt, and as they themselves pointed out what they said is subject to change.
With that being said, I think what they said about fantasia potions is pretty much what most people I know reasoned of their existence. To have a world where fantasia's function the way they do mechanically without any catch is ludicrous. The fact that they are never mentioned by any NPC or quest or FATE or anything really is a big hint as to their place in the world in my opinion.
RE: FFXIV Lore Q/A - FreelanceWizard - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 10:08 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote: The thing about lore is that it isn't concrete. It isn't a textbook that you can pick up and educate yourself on the undisputed facts of Eorzea/Hydaelyn. It's closer to picking up the Bible--everyone has a different interpretation on it. Two different roleplayers could be looking at the same paragraph of lore (I dunno, could be about a place or magic or Ul'dah customs) and those two different roleplayers are going to argue/discuss on these forums, theoretically, about how they are different and which interpretation is more accurate.
Hence why I've become increasingly dismissive of terms such as 'lore compliant' or 'lore following' etc. It doesn't mean much. Lore sources are subjective too. What is an acceptable lore source? I could argue myself that minion and mount descriptions don't count as lore since they're all ridiculous anyway. But no, really, I do think you are in your right to not see the tumblr infos as word of god.
When I, at least, say "lore compliant," I mean "basically jives with what we know about the setting." So that means, to me, no characters from the X-Men showing up, no vampires/werewolves/(insert popular supernatural YA fiction character type here), no claims that the sky is heliotrope and elezen are actually lizardmen in disguise, and nothing the devs have explicitly said doesn't exist -- which is really precious few things.
Beyond that, we're all in grey areas to some degree. As you noted, the lore's not concrete, and there are some well-known disagreements about how to interpret some of it. One that comes to mind just now is "how powerful are the elementals in the Shroud at this part of the story." We can have those disagreements, I think, and still all RP together outside of those disagreements.
RE: FFXIV Lore Q/A - Hyrist - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 11:10 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: When I, at least, say "lore compliant," I mean "basically jives with what we know about the setting." So that means, to me, no characters from the X-Men showing up, no vampires/werewolves/(insert popular supernatural YA fiction character type here), no claims that the sky is heliotrope and elezen are actually lizardmen in disguise, and nothing the devs have explicitly said doesn't exist -- which is really precious few things.
Beyond that, we're all in grey areas to some degree. As you noted, the lore's not concrete, and there are some well-known disagreements about how to interpret some of it. One that comes to mind just now is "how powerful are the elementals in the Shroud at this part of the story." We can have those disagreements, I think, and still all RP together outside of those disagreements.
(I'm going to preface this with an acknowledgement that my opinion may be unpopular and I accept the difficulties that may provide. However my concern is the happiness and entertainment of my comrades, not an abstract and logically restrictive ideal. So long as it is within reason, and not overly ridiculous, my friends come first.)
When lore is unaccommodating of easily accessible mechanics to the player, it is the lore that it in error, and is open to be bent or flat out disregarded.
The problem about lore-mongering is that it does not take bad writing on behalf of the creators into consideration. The more FFXIV's story staff treats their lore like a single-player game, the more damaging and dividing it becomes to the Roleplayer base. And this happens across several MMOs, particularly noticeable in SWtOR and ARR in particular are pretty big violators of this.
Conversely, well-written lore premises do not ignore their mechanics. Aion in particular went above and beyond making even the revival mechanics part of their lore. Even FFXIV 1.0 in the instance was far and away more inclusive then what's being provided here and now.
Our Free Company keeps 'Adventurer Class' Jobs as canon, with a general story behind each on how the practices are passed on. Issues with individual components such as Fantasias can generally be written in, rather than be retconed.Â
And each situation that these exceptions occur, crate their own sphere of canons that become glossed over, or just not mentioned in larger groupings, in which their own canon may differ.
Head-canon > Personal Canon > Group Canon > Public Canon > Lore - This is generally an accepted structure in preventing lore or personal cannon conflicts. The wider of a group you deal with, the more conflicting details just simply don't come up or be presented.
Here's a breakdown of how it could be done in the spoiler:
I'm actually surprised that more MMO communities are not familiar with these concepts. I've found they work exceedingly well when it comes to accommodating individual quirks in roleplay.
RE: FFXIV Lore Q/A - FreelanceWizard - 06-09-2015
Don't get me wrong, I'm really not a fan of the way some lore is built in XIV. I'm a big believer in "mechanics are lore too" -- also an unpopular opinion
-- and the poor execution of some of the quests is a constant source of annoyance. I can think of several ways to create a wielder of Succor (note I don't necessarily say White Mage; it's like the difference between a conjurer and a Conjurer) that dodges and weaves around the constraints established by the lore, at least as I interpret it.With that said, though, what you say is quite true -- the more open your RP is, the more you have to hew to the "common denominator" of what's accepted to get the maximum amount of RP.
