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+--- Thread: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people (/showthread.php?tid=11932)
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Aaron - 06-09-2015
I expect a lot of western throwdowns at noon to be happening come HW
Bonus if wearing chaps and a tricorne
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Nadine Marteau - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 02:25 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: That hasn't been my takeaway from the thread. I see people treating them as being about as dangerous as a Thaumaturge throwing fire and calling down lightning. The only thing making them potentially more dangerous than your token renegade mage is accessibility - which may or may not be an issue, depending on the lore behind the specific firearms machinists will be using.
Well, what we know so far is that machinists will be trained at Skysteel manufactuory, an Ishgardian weapons producer inspired (either loosely or directly, we've yet to see) by the work of Cid Garlond to create new weapons for the war against the Dravanians. Already we're beginning to see Ishgardians use powder-based siege and artillery heavily.
Considering their goal is waging war more efficiently, I feel it's safe to assume reproducibility and accessibility are major factors in design. What would be the point if they're developing esoteric things only highly trained specialists can use? Given that cannons are already becoming very commonplace, personal firearms will probably become relatively available soon.
That said, I think much of a machinist's personal arsenal (such as their turrets and special barrels/ammo) will be the realm of the highly experimental and prone to backfire and failure. It is prototype and not ready for public use. It may have flaws only one who built it could compensate for or perhaps it's prone to breakdown and needs constant maintenance. They're things only a trained individual can make effective at this point in time, for whatever reason.
It depends, but I do see common firearms and explosives becoming more available, because the cutting edge (see above) is already working on trying to advance that technology beyond its current capacity. Personally, I'm very interested in seeing how this industrial shift influences the very rigidly feudal Ishgardian society.
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Chris Ganale - 06-09-2015
I didn't say anyone was going to trivialize guns, I said there are implications that some people are thinking it, and it is of course very difficult to tell joke from serious reply on the internet. I'm also aware of some people with IC attitudes such that they would never consider technology of any kind to be any sort of threat to them.
And to nitpick a bit, comparison of guns to THMs doesn't really hold water when a significant chunk of this thread has been "a mage will still wreck a fully-armored fighter but any plate better than steel will stop a bullet".
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Hammersmith - 06-09-2015
(06-09-2015, 02:59 PM)Nadine Marteau Wrote:(06-09-2015, 02:25 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: That hasn't been my takeaway from the thread. I see people treating them as being about as dangerous as a Thaumaturge throwing fire and calling down lightning. The only thing making them potentially more dangerous than your token renegade mage is accessibility - which may or may not be an issue, depending on the lore behind the specific firearms machinists will be using.
Well, what we know so far is that machinists will be trained at Skysteel manufactuory, an Ishgardian weapons producer inspired (either loosely or directly, we've yet to see) by the work of Cid Garlond to create new weapons for the war against the Dravanians. Already we're beginning to see Ishgardians use powder-based siege and artillery heavily.
Considering their goal is waging war more efficiently, I feel it's safe to assume reproducibility and accessibility are major factors in design. What would be the point if they're developing esoteric things only highly trained specialists can use? Given that cannons are already becoming very commonplace, personal firearms will probably become relatively available soon.
That said, I think much of a machinist's personal arsenal (such as their turrets and special barrels/ammo) will be the realm of the highly experimental and prone to backfire and failure. It is prototype and not ready for public use. It may have flaws only one who built it could compensate for or perhaps it's prone to breakdown and needs constant maintenance. They're things only a trained individual can make effective at this point in time, for whatever reason.
It depends, but I do see common firearms and explosives becoming more available, because the cutting edge (see above) is already working on trying to advance that technology beyond its current capacity. Personally, I'm very interested in seeing how this industrial shift influences the very rigidly feudal Ishgardian society.
Let's be clear: The Ishgardian instances in game have multiple encounters involving cannons, even before Cid got involved.  They've had black powder and explosive access for a while.  I'm willing to bet Cid and Friends just open it up to the public, or makes production easier  instead of keeping it in the range of military secrets and/or hard to produce/expensive weaponry and the like. Â
Whatever opens up Ishgard proper will probably also add to the need to allow these weapons more into the public eye, if not hands.
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - TheLastCandle - 06-09-2015
Mages can be silenced, or crippled. If they can remove the verbal or the somatic component of a spellcaster, a wily warrior won't "get wrecked" by a mage. Elemental materia is yet another factor. Many melee classes possess aetheric abilities - the Paladin's Hallowed Ground comes to mind, among others.
Gunners similarly might have to work harder to penetrate, say, a warrior's cobalt armor or a mage's stoneskin. But then again, both mages and gunners retain the advantage of range against a warrior.
Firing a gun is faster than casting a spell. However, a truly clever mage might Swiftcast a fire spell to overheat a gun.
Everyone has strengths. Everyone has weaknesses. All is well with the world.
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Chris Ganale - 06-09-2015
And that's all fair. Finding and exploiting weaknesses is amusing.
I simply don't want to have somebody move to engage Garon, Ghost, or Yuuna, find out that they use firearms, and then treat them as pushover jokes because of their choice of weapon.
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Yangh - 06-10-2015
(06-09-2015, 03:53 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote: And that's all fair. Finding and exploiting weaknesses is amusing.
I simply don't want to have somebody move to engage Garon, Ghost, or Yuuna, find out that they use firearms, and then treat them as pushover jokes because of their choice of weapon.
You should let them think exactly that... until you blow off a chunk of their face.
In fact, letting them believe they're stronger and feeding that overconfidence will work hand in hand with finding and exploiting weaknesses.
No matter what they think of your weapon choice, a carefully crafted emote will back them in to a situation of no return everytime. I love when I get to do that!
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Nadine Marteau - 06-10-2015
(06-09-2015, 03:53 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote: And that's all fair. Finding and exploiting weaknesses is amusing.
I simply don't want to have somebody move to engage Garon, Ghost, or Yuuna, find out that they use firearms, and then treat them as pushover jokes because of their choice of weapon.
I understand your wariness, but that can apply to pretty much anything. Bad roleplayers will godmode no matter what weapon you're using. This is why I tend to not do combat RP with people I don't feel I can trust.
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - SunTzu7 - 06-10-2015
How will I deal with firearms? By setting their arms. On FIRE! Haha, sociopathic tendencies. And terrible puns.
But lets be fair, we already had archers in the setting, and Longbows historically have been enough in many cases to punch straight through some kinds of armour.Â
I imagine we live in a world where the bog standard human is a bit more resilient than our happy little species. So while a bullet anywhere in real life is going to require a fair bit of hospital time if it doesn't kill you dead, I don't think it's going to be that simple in Eorzea. Conversely however, you shouldn't be able to just 'shrug it off' and keep going. It's still a bullet. Possibly in your face.
RE:How are people going to deal with firearms?Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Mordred Lyloche - 06-10-2015
I always find it kind of campy that people immediately run to the, "Who's stronger?!" ideal. But since we do need to do that, let's take a look back through memory lane of Final Fantasy in general.
Final Fantasy has a very common theme of magic vs. technology, with one of the two seemingly being bad or just forgotten/shunned. So it's not uncommon in the setting to see people with swords and magic fighting against people with rifles and sniper rifles.
Taking a look at our shining boys from FFVII we get a very clear image of people dealing with getting shot and still running around fighting. In the most extreme of cases, we've got Zack Fair who took several shots throughout his entire body - of course he was a super powered freak, but it's the most extreme case.
It's also not uncommon for the laws that govern our reality to hold no part in the worlds of Final Fantasy. Armoring that defies our knowledge of physics and the forces that matter in reality often don't matter at all to Final Fantasy. Again, looking at FFVII - specifically Advent Children - we get to see the classic party all helping out Cloud, jumping up and throwing him higher in the air. There's also plenty of examples from FFXIII and even as far back as FFIV with the death defying party that fought against Baron and its technological might.
It's commonplace within the worlds of Final Fantasy for the sword-toting folk to need to be able to stand against those who utilize guns. Whether they're just able to take and shrug off several shots in general or the fact that their armor is made with the weapons specifically in mind is up in the air, but it's no question that throughout the stories this is a thing.
But getting more onto the topic of the MCH class in general, I think we really need to take a look at the availability of the technology in question and why they're receiving it. As far as we know, Cid's Workshop came up with quite a few goodies to help defending against the Dravanians. I think it's safe to assume that the majority of MCH - those actually utilizing what the class entails - are not going to be running around swinging their guns around and acting like bandits when they quite obviously have bigger fish to fry.
Quote:Following the example of Cid Garlond, who has demonstrated the potency of magitek, the Skysteel Manufactory works tirelessly on the development of advanced armaments. As new and devastating weapons are brought to the fray, a new class of champion arises to wield them ― the machinist.
There's also the fantastic point of how people are capable of standing against the might of the Garlean Empire. Considering there was a rather sizable force here in Eorzea and we're all running around using all manner of "inferior" weaponry compared to their tech and even their mech suits, we were capable of standing against them without. Sure, the Warrior of Light + allies managed to commandeer one of them, but I'm referring to the basic, rank and file soldier that was fighting while the Warrior of Light was doing his heroism. If the basic rank and file soldier stood something of a chance, which they clearly did when looking at the Battle at Cartenau and then throughout all the other battles to come, then there's got to be some manner of defense implied against guns, otherwise it'd just be instant auto-kill shots.
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Chris Ganale - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 01:18 PM)Varis Siberys Wrote: There's also the fantastic point of how people are capable of standing against the might of the Garlean Empire. Considering there was a rather sizable force here in Eorzea and we're all running around using all manner of "inferior" weaponry compared to their tech and even their mech suits, we were capable of standing against them without. Sure, the Warrior of Light + allies managed to commandeer one of them, but I'm referring to the basic, rank and file soldier that was fighting while the Warrior of Light was doing his heroism. If the basic rank and file soldier stood something of a chance, which they clearly did when looking at the Battle at Cartenau and then throughout all the other battles to come, then there's got to be some manner of defense implied against guns, otherwise it'd just be instant auto-kill shots.
As has been stated before, the rank and file of the Garlean Empire does not have guns. It's reserved for what appears to be their officers and higher. Twin Adder Mook #295 doesn't have to deal with Garlean Mook #918 shooting him, he has to deal with that mook coming at him with a sword.
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Mordred Lyloche - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 05:41 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote: As has been stated before, the rank and file of the Garlean Empire does not have guns. It's reserved for what appears to be their officers and higher. Twin Adder Mook #295 doesn't have to deal with Garlean Mook #918 shooting him, he has to deal with that mook coming at him with a sword.
I'm skeptical to imagine that in the entirety of the force presented in Eorzea that there weren't officers or anyone of the like that the Warrior of Light didn't deal with and instead the Grand Companies had to deal with. With such a sizable force, it sounds almost ludicrous to think that there were only three imposing figures carrying around firearms.
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Chris Ganale - 06-10-2015
I didn't say there were only three officers. But the thing about officers, is that the kind of officer that leads from the front? Usually winds up a dead officer. Not for nothing the officers we saw in End of An Era were hanging out back by a reaper, which was acting as artillery, and opened up on the Warrior when he left his brain at home and stopped in the middle of a friggen battlefield to lift his visor and stare up at the frelling moon.
Short version is, you'll typically have one officer for every hundred or so mooks in a Roman-style formation like the Garleans seem to favor, and they'll be as far back from the front as possible directing their troops, so it stands to reason they won't commonly be seen in a massed battle.
Unless you're the kind of dick (me) that goes hunting enemy officers.
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Nadine Marteau - 06-10-2015
(06-10-2015, 06:26 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote: Short version is, you'll typically have one officer for every hundred or so mooks in a Roman-style formation like the Garleans seem to favor, and they'll be as far back from the front as possible directing their troops, so it stands to reason they won't commonly be seen in a massed battle.
This is true, but Garleans also have artillery equipped with guns (Magitek armor, etc) that they seem to use in fairly large numbers. They also, from what I've seen if I recall, don't make regular use of any sort of non-magical ranged weaponry apart from these. Garelean units seem to be all melee infantry, mages, and magitek. As noted before, fielding mages is a very potent option, but costly. As a well-oiled authoritarian machine with a surplus of able bodies and coin in the war chest, they can spare that cost.
Its entirely possible that personal firearms are more symbol of office than anything especially practical, much like a military officer's saber in the real-world gunpowder era. That is not to say they aren't deadly, especially in the trained hands of the Garlean elite, but again the reason they're not so prevalent in the rank and file might simply be because they're obsolete compared to what else Garlemald has going for it.
RE: How are people going to deal with firearms? Thread mostly aimed at the melee people - Chris Ganale - 06-10-2015
The rank and file are also conscripts, not actual Garleans. Putting game-changing technology in the hands of your glorified slaves is how you get an uprising.