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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead (/showthread.php?tid=17480)
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Flashhelix - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 12:33 AM)Sig Wrote: ...Call me a heretic, but FFXIV lore, considering its extreme ambiguity and after-the-fact implementation, is meant to be bent to facilitate tasteful roleplay and story telling.
Dragoons should not allow a two sentence excerpt from a recently published lore book destroy characters and limit RP.Â
This isn't a federal statute enacted by congress. It's the product of one or two members of the FFXIV "lore team."
Bend that lore with impunity.
p. much this, SE certainly isn't above bending or contradicting their own lore, I don't see why others can't
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - AlionLucada - 10-17-2016
Just don't be surprised if people call you out on it. ICly of course.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Verad - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 02:09 AM)AlionLucada Wrote: Just don't be surprised if people call you out on it. ICly of course.
Will you?
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Hyrist - 10-17-2016
Here's my takeaway:
The Ishgardian Order of the Dragoon's number 10.
Adventures, however, have been emulating and replicating skills and appearances from ancient martial arts since 1.xx, and that is canon.
You need look no further than Rowenas employees to see the validity of that - their is story behind their replicas that is not tied exclusively for the warrior of light. After all, if the WoL was Rowena's only customer, she would not sell these products.
So the work around on this attempted Lore-lock is that, as always, Elite Adventurers are the exception to the rule, and have always been. They exist, they are referenced, most specifically they're referenced in the Triad storyline, in which Krile acknowledges herself that the Warrior of Light is often friends with adventurers also gifted with the Echo.
Trying to pull logic from a  very specif statement like this to lock down or lock out anyone who wishes to play else-wise, probably isn't a wise roleplay practice. Playing an Ishgardian Dragoon was always looked at a similar to playing an out and Public White or Black Mage anyways - the fact that there is a specific number currently in the origin matters little in this regard comparatively.
People have, and will continue to, lore-bend, both elegantly and horribly. The more a player or a community becomes hyper-adherent to lore, especially specific points like this, the more that said player or community suffers for it, as it make the environment become less and less welcoming to new blood, which, frankly, keeps the community alive.
So no, Dragoons be Dragoons. This changes little in regards to the overall atmosphere of the Job usage in the actual RP environment. Those who were specifically playing Ishgardian Dragoons were pretty low in number compared to Adventurers who were simulating Dragoon combat arts through the same 'peer teaching' methods that have loopholed every other job in existence.
Try not to take things too seriously, you'll suck the fun out of things for yourselves and others.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Virella - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 05:12 AM)Hyrist Wrote: Here's my takeaway:Okay, provide proof of Ishgardian Dragoons fighting style existing out of Ishgard, WoL snowflake excluded. Because lets be honest, using the WoL as an excuse for a PC to be a Dragoon in this case... is rather arrogant and absurd.
The Ishgardian Order of the Dragoon's number 10.
Adventures, however, have been emulating and replicating skills and appearances from ancient martial arts since 1.xx, and that is canon.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Teadrinker - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 05:12 AM)Hyrist Wrote: Try not to take things too seriously, you'll suck the fun out of things for yourselves and others.
Eh, I can call it like it is. Existing active Dragoon RPers got retconned out of existence.
Will I still RP with them?
Yep.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Hyrist - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 06:21 AM)Virella Wrote: Okay, provide proof of Ishgardian Dragoons fighting style existing out of Ishgard, WoL snowflake excluded. Because lets be honest, using the WoL as an excuse for a PC to be a Dragoon in this case... is rather arrogant and absurd.
Dragoon storyline 50-60:
That's not including any future "Retired Azure Dragoon" appearances.
Also, never used WoL as an excuse. Read again. Someone has to be Rowena's target market for weapons and armor not only exclusive to Dragoon usage, but tailored specifically for their use and image. WoL was merely the inspiration for it.
The reason you don't see it in action is because SE keeps the information and specifics about "Elite Adventurers" (Their pseudonym for player characters) intentionally vague. They're supposed to be rare even among adventurers. And such things like the duplication of skillsets from ancient practices, pretty much is limited to those elites.
But then again, this is taking all this far too seriously for anyone actually out there roleplaying to care about. As stated above, in spite of what people whisper behind their hands and discuss on forums, most people just roll with it.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Valence - 10-17-2016
(10-16-2016, 06:50 PM)Haven Wrote: There are bound to be more than 30 soulstones for Dragoons. The role of Dragoons in Ishgard is brutal with likely a pretty rough mortality rate over the 1000 years of war. So what happend to those soulstones of past Dragoons that were killed in action? It would be impossible to gather all of the fallen soulstones. You have these fighters who jump great heights to battle dragons in the air. You have a city that is perched over a vast chasm where fights up against the city walls didn't seem that uncommon. There is tons of room for past stones to be lost so there has to be a way to recreate them.
Not only that you have the training of new Dragoons. First you start as a lancer of course and work your way up but what happens when you are first given a soulstone? It becomes training back from start to learn the Dragoon ways. I fail to believe that any of the Dragoons didn't have a rough time learning how to jump and harness that power to a precise point. Yes you have that past knowledge and perhaps know how but it's not going to be like turning on a light switch.
It's going to take any new Dragoon a bit to adjust to the soulstone and different fighting style before they are worthy of being titled as Dragoons and put into service.
As I said before, it's not much different than for WhM and BLM nd jobs like that. Your reasons are perfectly valid to me in terms of lore.
A conjurer can perfectly stumble on an old amdapori soulstone for whatever reason, even if it seems highly unlikely.
Otherwise yes. It's as special snowflaky as claiming to be part of the few padjali WhM and whatnot. Retired DRG or not.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Eses Fafa - 10-17-2016
One, you mentioned active duty. That doesn't mean Dragoons have stopped being a thing.
Second, they can still actively claim representation of the Order even if they were laid off.
Besides, FF14's roleplay is more fun if you bend the rules a little bit, which is weird to say considering I come from Argent Dawn in WoW, which jumps at any opportunity to shame any lorebreaking.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Val - 10-17-2016
I don't think it really matters all that much in the long run. As people said, they can RP however they want and most people will probably continue to do so regardless of the lore. I'm sure a few things will need to be changed on a per-character basis, but overall I agree with the rest. Just say you left the order or so on and so forth.
Truth be told, in this game, you almost have to RP as some sort of special snowflake-y thing in order to RP any of the jobs. They're all--if not most--built around the idea of being some incredibly rare, powerful occurrence. Some people follow that, others just prefer to avoid it altogether.
I still stand by the idea that the Soulstone thing is just a dumb mechanic for job transitioning that SE has to explain via bad writing, but that's just me. I tend to ignore/avoid talk of them IC if at all possible and assume everyone is just super well trainedÂ
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Gegenji - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 09:43 AM)Val Wrote: I still stand by the idea that the Soulstone thing is just a dumb mechanic for job transitioning that SE has to explain via bad writing, but that's just me. I tend to ignore/avoid talk of them IC if at all possible and assume everyone is just super well trainedÂWell, that circles back to something someone brought up earlier - the Soul Crystal helps you learn the abilities and whatnot in most cases. I remember someone likening them to arcane cliff notes that help spin you up to speed faster than someone who didn't have one. So, does that knowledge just... disappear from your mind once you don't have it anymore? I know mechanically you go back to your base class and whatnot, but what about from an IC perspective?
Do those memories and skill sets remain? Do they get sort of fuzzy and difficult to recall like dreams after waking up? Or are they just gone entirely, leaving you feeling like you KNEW how to do it but it's forever on the tip of the proverbial tongue?
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Valence - 10-17-2016
(10-16-2016, 07:30 PM)McBeef Wrote: Yeah I thought anyone who killed a Dragon was a Dragoon. The 30 are just like the cool kids club.Â
I used Paladins before, but maybe Monetarists are a better example? There are only 6 rich people on the Syndicate, however you can be an incredibly rich noble in Uldah, with lots of power.
You can be an incredibly skilled dragoon with the soulstone who has killed a Dragon... but maybe you're not cool enough to be on the cool kids club. It's all politics really.
Two rather different things actually.
A simple dragoon is called that way when someone kills a single dragon. It's a title, or a way to describe those who make the deed. Those dragoons can be any class, mage, swordsman, anything.
A Knight Dragoon is the military elite branch of Ishgard knights. Has probably killed a dragon at some point, but maybe not.
Lots of dragoon knights (or just mercs or adventurers) in Ishgard. But 10-30 Knight Dragoons only though.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Val - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 09:49 AM)Gegenji Wrote:(10-17-2016, 09:43 AM)Val Wrote: I still stand by the idea that the Soulstone thing is just a dumb mechanic for job transitioning that SE has to explain via bad writing, but that's just me. I tend to ignore/avoid talk of them IC if at all possible and assume everyone is just super well trainedÂWell, that circles back to something someone brought up earlier - the Soul Crystal helps you learn the abilities and whatnot in most cases. I remember someone likening them to arcane cliff notes that help spin you up to speed faster than someone who didn't have one. So, does that knowledge just... disappear from your mind once you don't have it anymore? I know mechanically you go back to your base class and whatnot, but what about from an IC perspective?
Do those memories and skill sets remain? Do they get sort of fuzzy and difficult to recall like dreams after waking up? Or are they just gone entirely, leaving you feeling like you KNEW how to do it but it's forever on the tip of the proverbial tongue?
See, this is the problem I have with SE. Ever since... FFX, maybe? They've had this stupid idea/thing where they have to immerse all of their game mechanics in in-game lore. I appreciate the effort, but some mechanics really just don't need it as I would hope/think people are intelligent enough to realize it is a mechanic.
..That being said, I would assume it's the latter of what you offered, based solely on the mechanic alone. The abilities a character is given are insanely powerful and require a great deal of skill and experience to pull off. The soulstone gives you that. I can imagine losing it would cause someone to lose the knowledge, but through experience you may be able to learn to do it without.
The problem is that some people would no doubt try to say they can learn everything without soulstones, although I guess we already have some that RP knowing everything with soulstones.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Teadrinker - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 10:00 AM)Val Wrote:(10-17-2016, 09:49 AM)Gegenji Wrote:(10-17-2016, 09:43 AM)Val Wrote: I still stand by the idea that the Soulstone thing is just a dumb mechanic for job transitioning that SE has to explain via bad writing, but that's just me. I tend to ignore/avoid talk of them IC if at all possible and assume everyone is just super well trainedÂWell, that circles back to something someone brought up earlier - the Soul Crystal helps you learn the abilities and whatnot in most cases. I remember someone likening them to arcane cliff notes that help spin you up to speed faster than someone who didn't have one. So, does that knowledge just... disappear from your mind once you don't have it anymore? I know mechanically you go back to your base class and whatnot, but what about from an IC perspective?
Do those memories and skill sets remain? Do they get sort of fuzzy and difficult to recall like dreams after waking up? Or are they just gone entirely, leaving you feeling like you KNEW how to do it but it's forever on the tip of the proverbial tongue?
See, this is the problem I have with SE. Ever since... FFX, maybe? They've had this stupid idea/thing where they have to immerse all of their game mechanics in in-game lore. I appreciate the effort, but some mechanics really just don't need it as I would hope/think people are intelligent enough to realize it is a mechanic.
..That being said, I would assume it's the latter of what you offered, based solely on the mechanic alone. The abilities a character is given are insanely powerful and require a great deal of skill and experience to pull off. The soulstone gives you that. I can imagine losing it would cause someone to lose the knowledge, but through experience you may be able to learn to do it without.
The problem is that some people would no doubt try to say they can learn everything without soulstones, although I guess we already have some that RP knowing everything with soulstones.
Massive lore comes with MMO territory, especially those with a progressing storyline and multiple xpacs etc.
You can get away with not having as much in a standalone console RPG.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Valence - 10-17-2016
(10-16-2016, 11:19 PM)V Wrote:(10-16-2016, 11:10 PM)Momo Wrote: I don't think it was an error, there are some errors in there of course, because of translation and sheer speed needed to finish, but none of them which glaringly change an entire fact.The lore book says that Nunh are leaders in Seeker tribes as a standard in direct contradiction to the original lore post.
I don't remember anything like that? They don't say outright they are leaders... Unless there is a scan I missed...