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+--- Thread: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. (/showthread.php?tid=8559)
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Zyrusticae - 10-08-2014
Maaan, look at all this discussion that can be answered with a single word:
"Aether."
I'm now going to drop a DBZ clip, because it's relevant. Yes, that's right. DBZ is relevant here. I know, it's silly, but think about it and you'll know it to be true.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YOFbabvk-M
It's a thing in a lot of Japanese (and East Asian in general) media. In other universes it's referred to variously as ki/chi, reiatsu (spiritual pressure), chakra, The Force, etc., etc. It's effectively what allows the characters within those universes to pull off their insane superhuman feats.
So let's put it this way. A Lalafell is naturally at a disadvantage from a pure physical perspective, the same way a Miqo'te is at a physical disadvantage versus a Highlander who is at a disadvantage versus a Roegadyn who is at a disadvantage vs Titan etc.. It's only after they train and gain control over aether (either their own or the environment's) that they start to exhibit abilities that go well beyond their ken. In other words, no, an ordinary Lalafell would not be able to arm-wrestle a Roegadyn... but a trained pugilist with strong control over their own aether (as well as sizable aetheric reserves) could easily overpower a Roegadyn that's had no prior training.
It's funny to me, to read all these posters who can't take superhuman feats seriously, who need realism in regards to physical size and the like. As someone who grew up with DBZ and other such fun things, I take it as a matter of course. Of course a Lalafell is capable of standing up to a Roegadyn once they've become capable. Physical size just doesn't matter in these worlds when you have aether to overcome any and all obstacles! At some point you just learn to suspend your disbelief with the understanding that the laws of physics are just different in these fictional universes, or else you can never get invested into the events depicted.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Sounsyy - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 02:20 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Zyrusticae snip.
Aether solves all questions...
except...
GARLEAN LALAFELLS MWUAHAHAHAHAHA
Future's Perfect
(@8:06)
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - TheLastCandle - 10-08-2014
Aether is the new "Wizards did it lol."
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Warren Castille - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 02:18 PM)Kinono Wrote: I'll say this, both to my defense in detriment:
no response I make in this thread or on this subject is going to be 100% rational and without emotional attachment.
As a primarily Lalafell roleplayer, who's been at this since launch... I get really, really, really tired of not being taken seriously. As a player, but more importantly as a character. I've had people regularly comments on me being the "comedy-relief" race, regular derogatory comments made on my character's ability to do physically anything by herself, assumptions that I'm not being age-appropriate by doing anything a grown adult would regularly and reasonably do, and one very random and uncalled-for comment on me being smelly and dirty and having gross midget feet.
I'll totally agree that a lalapunch and a roepunch, after equal training and with equal equipment are not going to be the same. But if anybody tells me or any other character they can't win a little brawl for no better reason than "lol lala," then that person's credibility is going to go way, way, way down in my book.
I blame XI for that. Tarutaru (the progenitor race from that game) are almost to-a-one childlike and silly. There are plenty of examples where they aren't, but the CoP triplets and Shantotto are basically the only ones anyone remembers. You can also blame SE by outright stating on the official lalafell page on Lodestone that they have child-like countenances. They did you no favors by painting the race as children, but there's plenty of NPCs and dialogue in game that show that isn't the case.
Finally, anyone saying lalafell can't win a fight because of their size is damaged upstairs. If my opinions came off that way I apologize; I really just wanted to talk about raw strength vis-a-vis punching/throwing/grappling.
(10-08-2014, 02:18 PM)Kage Wrote: I'm at work so I can't spend as much time as I'd like to fumbling around with the quotes and spoilers. Thank you Warren for establishing that! :3
As a lalafell player I'd like to believe that I've never had Kage attempt to just bare bones bench press and throw a Roegadyn clear across the room with no effort at all. But one of your comments makes me think someone did?
If I had Kage facing Warren at the GS. A) As warren doesn't fight with armor or weapons, Kage would probably actually do the same thing, ie fight with his bare fists. To him, it's only fair.
If I were to throw a lalafell at say the fight club, some things I have in mind. Lalafell, if they are fighters, are going to have the fortitude to take hits. Ones that have a high chance of counters but if they hit are knockouts? No, but they might be able to dodge and counter it easily. He might be using the opponent's own joints against him to force the win. Or outlast him long enough to wear him out and get in a good blow.
Re: LalaPunch Hyur: No it won't hurt as much as Roe's or another Hyur's but it's not something that you're going to be able to laugh off and go "lol try that again! did you even try the first time?"
Enh, there was an incident but it's not mine to call out. I just wanted to be equipped for when it is inevitably my turn, though.
Joint manipulation and judo-style momentum-counters are completely fair. This is what I meant by saying brute force isn't the only way to win; Even without weapons or armor a lalafell CAN be a threat, I just think that threat is best represented through means other than leaping uppercuts and axe-handle smashes and dropkicks.
I'd also like to think that I've always had Warren "sell" well, especially at the Grindstone. Getting hit is going to happen and everyone knows I expect to lose every round, so I'd never be so brazen as to stick my chest out and laugh off someone's attacks. I also try not to talk trash. I'm a firm believer in talking/emoting yourself up instead of someone else down. There's a world of difference between
Quote:/em sees the feint coming and slips around behind the true attack before following through with his own
and
Quote:/em laughs off <t>'s horrible attempt at a trick and blocks the attack without flinching, smirking and laughing it off and doing a Shinkuu Shoryuken. "You're so damn slow, my mother could have seen that coming.
One makes you sound like a good fighter! The other makes your opponent sound like shit! They both get the same point across (dodge, counter) but one makes for a tense back-and-forth, the other sounds like fanfiction.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Warren Castille - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 02:20 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Maaan, look at all this discussion that can be answered with a single word:
"Aether."
I'm now going to drop a DBZ clip, because it's relevant. Yes, that's right. DBZ is relevant here. I know, it's silly, but think about it and you'll know it to be true.
It's a thing in a lot of Japanese (and East Asian in general) media. In other universes it's referred to variously as ki/chi, reiatsu (spiritual pressure), chakra, The Force, etc., etc. It's effectively what allows the characters within those universes to pull off their insane superhuman feats.
So let's put it this way. A Lalafell is naturally at a disadvantage from a pure physical perspective, the same way a Miqo'te is at a physical disadvantage versus a Highlander who is at a disadvantage versus a Roegadyn who is at a disadvantage vs Titan etc.. It's only after they train and gain control over aether (either their own or the environment's) that they start to exhibit abilities that go well beyond their ken. In other words, no, an ordinary Lalafell would not be able to arm-wrestle a Roegadyn... but a trained pugilist with strong control over their own aether (as well as sizable aetheric reserves) could easily overpower a Roegadyn that's had no prior training.
It's funny to me, to read all these posters who can't take superhuman feats seriously, who need realism in regards to physical size and the like. As someone who grew up with DBZ and other such fun things, I take it as a matter of course. Of course a Lalafell is capable of standing up to a Roegadyn once they've become capable. Physical size just doesn't matter in these worlds when you have aether to overcome any and all obstacles! At some point you just learn to suspend your disbelief with the understanding that the laws of physics are just different in these fictional universes, or else you can never get invested into the events depicted.
You stop having a point once the roe is also trained. If on a scale of 1-10 a lalafell start at 10, and after practice can channel aether to get to 150, what happens when a roe who started at 40 channels the same aether?
It's also established not everyone can "channel" aether, nor is it established that aether is what makes heroes heroic.
I've had no trouble getting invested in plenty, but I tend to limit my exposure to super saiyan potatoes, too.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Zyrusticae - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 02:30 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:>_>(10-08-2014, 02:20 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Zyrusticae snip.
Aether solves all questions...
except...
GARLEAN LALAFELLS MWUAHAHAHAHAHA
[snip]
(@8:06)
We don't know if they're actually Garlean or just conscripted troops, however. Are Garleans exclusively Hyur? I know the Roe was a conscript who worked his way up the ranks/was given his position as a favor or whatever. (I might have to go find that cutscene again...)
(10-08-2014, 02:31 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: Aether is the new "Wizards did it lol."Hey, at least one of these things is actually canon.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Erik Mynhier - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 02:30 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:(10-08-2014, 02:20 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Zyrusticae snip.
Aether solves all questions...
except...
GARLEAN LALAFELLS MWUAHAHAHAHAHA
Future's Perfect
(@8:06)
Oh man I forgot how epic the cs fights were in 1.0. I miss my legacy toon, wish I had kept that account going. We need a series of quest in ARR that will give us those old cs's in our Inn book.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Kage - 10-08-2014
I know this is not relevant to this discussion but thank you cutscenes as they show that the gunblades "bullets" are in some form able to be blocked by magic barrier or... punching the shit out of them.
Also, Garlean lalafell. SEE ROEN THEY WOULD TOTES LET KAGE IN
I respect you Warren as an RPer and know you wouldn't do that. I just throw that out there because... I have seen that. There's nothing more :/ than having a hyur RPer take a direct hit from your character, lalafell or not, and just laugh it off and say "You're not even trying!"
So, while I don't think a Lalafell can do a straight up one hit knockout (unless it's to specific places... knockout 'game' /sigh) but I think they can take the punches "regular" punches. They're not going to take too many clothesline or "charged up" hammers just as how they're not just going to flop when they get hit.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Warren Castille - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 02:49 PM)Kage Wrote: I know this is not relevant to this discussion but thank you cutscenes as they show that the gunblades "bullets" are in some form able to be blocked by magic barrier or... punching the shit out of them.
Also, Garlean lalafell. SEE ROEN THEY WOULD TOTES LET KAGE IN
I respect you Warren as an RPer and know you wouldn't do that. I just throw that out there because... I have seen that. There's nothing more :/ than having a hyur RPer take a direct hit from your character, lalafell or not, and just laugh it off and say "You're not even trying!"
So, while I don't think a Lalafell can do a straight up one hit knockout (unless it's to specific places... knockout 'game' /sigh) but I think they can take the punches "regular" punches. They're not going to take too many clothesline or "charged up" hammers just as how they're not just going to flop when they get hit.
Agreed. I never commented on lala's being flimsy for that reason exactly; I just figured part of their rotundness meshed with them being durable. Squishy, you might say. Hell, I even gave the reply to Berrod's question that they might very well "catch" the kick and just cling to the leg. They're sized like children, but they aren't children.
One of the things that burns me up the most is people no-selling offense in combat-rp situations. If you get hit, get hit, don't just shrug it off and counter. Be creative! I had to fight someone who was like, a starved wiry skeleton person and opened with a roundhouse kick. I lost the roll, but I still posted that Warren blocked it.
Then the kick went through his block and staggered him a bit because he underestimated the force behind it. Hell, part of the fun of combat RP is solving damage! For me, anyway.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Tiergan - 10-08-2014
I always assumed that while Lalafell could train to the point of getting really physically powerful (like the miner twins) - as a whole, they brought other advantages to the table in terms of martial combat. The lore already explicitly states that they're agile and intelligent -- they're obviously really tiny. It makes sense to me that fighting against a skilled lalafell opponent would be like fighting a super fast, super hard to see/hit opponent that is analyzing and breaking down all of your moves to determine their next strike.
I personally don't think a lalafell and a roe that have undergone the exact same training would have the exact same level of physical strength - but could the lalafell win if they fought? Sure, it's possible. He's got a whole different fighting style than the roe by default. Backed up by training, (or if they're a monk, by chakra/ki/aether/etc), their strikes could also likely hit hard enough to really hurt instead of say -- bouncing off your opponent.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Sounsyy - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 02:38 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: We don't know if they're actually Garlean or just conscripted troops, however. Are Garleans exclusively Hyur?
We don't know that they aren't actually Garlean. Soooo.
I would say that no single nation is made up entirely of a single race. Just as Ala Mhigo is not just Highlanders or Ishgard is not just Elezen. Likewise we found out that Padjal aren't just Hyur in 2.0.
While Garleans may be predominantly Hyur, we've no evidence to say they're only Hyur. With the current track record of other city-states, even those as far away as Doma and Thavnair, we've seen that these too support more than a single canon race.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Zyrusticae - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 02:38 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: You stop having a point once the roe is also trained. If on a scale of 1-10 a lalafell start at 10, and after practice can channel aether to get to 150, what happens when a roe who started at 40 channels the same aether?Like I said, physical strength becomes irrelevant once enough aether comes into play. The Roe's advantage becomes a non-factor after a certain point. If he trains up his control over aether overrides his own physical abilities.
It's also established not everyone can "channel" aether, nor is it established that aether is what makes heroes heroic.
I've had no trouble getting invested in plenty, but I tend to limit my exposure to super saiyan potatoes, too.
Aether is literally everything. Everything living has aether, is made up partly of aether, and interacts with aether. That's canon. When someone dies, their aether (also called "soul energy") moves into the aetherial realm. That's canon. When a Ascian is "defeated", they take an aetherial form and move into the space between worlds. That's canon. Our bodies are partly aether taken physical form (obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be able to use the aethernet or teleport at all). The difference between us and primals is that, while primals require direct sustenance in the form of aether crystals and vanish upon death, we maintain our primordial forms through the consumption of food, which, again, all contain and are partially made up of aether (and this is why your food gives you buffs - the more you know!).
Let's go back to the monk quest. In it, you learn that fighting on the fields of ancient battlegrounds will allow the latent aether left behind from those battles to enter you and expand your own native reserves. Hence, the opening of the seven chakras.
Interestingly, it's noted that too much aether can drive a person sick or mad if they are not trained to deal with it (which is pretty much exactly what happens to the other monk in the quest, at least until you beat it out of him).
But okay, that's just monks. What about other jobs?
Casters are self-explanatory. Black mages pull aether from the environment, arcanists use math (specifically geometry) to shape aether, white mages use succor (which is... really kind of poorly explained) but otherwise do the same thing as black mages on a lesser (much lesser) scale.
The "inner beast" of the Warrior job is a metaphor for a heightened state of aether control. The aura that surrounds the player at 5 stacks of wrath is highly reminiscent of the chi aura in DBZ (heh, sorry).
Bard songs are not just nice music, but are actually aetherically charged to provide benefits to those who hear them (or to do the opposite to enemies, in the case of Foe's Requiem). Naturally, this requires some expenditure on the bard's part. (I don't really know how to explain the difference between MP and TP though - someone else will have to do that.)
Paladins I shouldn't even need to explain - they're freakin' magic swordsmen.
Dragoons? Come the fuck on, their superhuman feats absolutely REQUIRE the manipulation of aether to be accomplished! You will not be able to justify their abilities with physical strength alone, that's just nonsense. Just like monks, dragoons exemplify the kinds of feats possible through skilled manipulation of one's personal aether, feats that are literally impossible for someone to pull off in the real world.
Now, mind you, I will not say that things on the level of super saiyans are a possibility - obviously that's incredibly silly given what we've been shown in the game and in the cinematics. However, I will say that aether is a thing, it is ubiquitous, and ignoring its existence is even more silly than someone just saying they shrug off hits because reasons. It's an incredibly big part of the lore, a huge swathe of the game world is literally made up of it, and that's something we should really accept as part and parcel of playing in Eorzea.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Berrod Armstrong - 10-08-2014
Except...that the point of this thread was about physical strength. Everyone has kind of acknowledged that the strength of an individual can be supplemented. However, the point of contention was that certain folks seemed to think that a Lalafell could hit as hard as a Roegadyn without such augmentation. The belief of the OP was: no.Â
Physical strength is what this thread is about.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Zyrusticae - 10-08-2014
Yeah, that... is so not the sense that I got from the OP. It seemed to me like Warren was talking specifically of ANY Lalafells in physical combat... at all. Any examples at all. Anywhere in the game.
That doesn't sound to me like he was making a distinction between a trained Lalafell soldier and a Lalafell civilian. More like Lalafells in general, any Lalafell, in physical melee.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Warren Castille - 10-08-2014
Z Wrote:A lot of speculation and some canon stuff
Not everyone can use an aethryte, for starters. Food buffs being canonical is... questionable, at best. While I won't doubt that casters are manipulating aether, saying that ALL martial classes do (with or without training- not an ounce of aetherial anything is talked about in the paladin storylines, and the DRG storyline is specifically draconic power amping your abilites). Assuming Warrior's Inner Beast is aether is conjecture, and citing the DBZ power aura hardly means anything (except maybe that they were inspired by the shounen template DBZ iconography).
Bard songs might be aether. They might also just be morale bonuses. Aether is not the force, and while it's present in everything, it isn't everything.
Following that, the only people who have to "accept as part and parcel" that everyone's got an inner beast chi dragon are the people playing at those ridiculous powerlevels. Some of us just play people, you know.