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Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Printable Version

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RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Sylastair - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:20 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 03:12 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 02:48 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: What if it's just some form of extremely advanced aetherial manipulation, this jump? Either way, it's something that would be available to the 1% in my mind anyway. Maybe that's why I am so lax on the hows.

When in doubt, its magic to Domri. LOL

Well that depends on who the 1% are, too. Do you mean 1% of Ishgardians? Yeah that's a fair number, likely. Probably a lot less, really, as we don't see armies of Dragoons but small 'squads' and individuals. As an example, the amount of soldiers who fought in the American Revolutionary War never amounted to more than 3% of the colonists at any given time. 

Ishgard is a warrior nation with a warrior goddess that has been at war for over a thousand years (and still managed to help boot the Ala Mhigans out of the Shroud). That's a bit of an aside, I suppose.

REGARDLESS, -if- the standing military of Ishgard's force of Dragoons makes up 1% of its forces, which may be accurate, I'm not really sure on the numbers tbh, other than that they are rare and highly specialized, based on what we see and know already, 100% of Dragoons still have jumps and the ability to fight in an aerial fashion. So you aren't wrong but I don't think you're wholly right, either. 

I will say that the one ability I concede as being 'off limits' as per a discussion with Berrod the other day, would be Dragonfire Dive. That was something that only the Azure Dragoon could do, apparently. Still, Dragoons are meant to be powerful, they have to fight dragons in the air, after all. But just like I wouldn't want to tangle with a Dragoon when they have the aerial advantage, I wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with a monk armed only with my fists, either.

I mostly meant the 1% as more or less the most talented. In my own headcanon, becoming a dragoon is something that takes a lot of training, effort, and time. I can't get behind that it's something that can just be achieved and 'oh look I can leap now', if that makes any sense. I don't find anything off limits (except, yes Azure Dragoon abilities), but I feel like there needs to be a spectrum of reality on how long is spent getting from point A to point B in terms of skill.

And trust me, aerial combat may be great against giant things that fly, but could be disadvantageous against small, grounded targets. And I'd be pretty terrified of monks with heavy jamadhars as I would be terrified of a dude with a giant axe. There's an advantage and disadvantage to everything. I think everything is pretty balanced in the grand scheme of things. Just gotta think outside the box for some.

Completely agree. Flynt attends the Grindstone and trains constantly with others and never uses jumps against people mainly because it just wouldn't work 9 times out of 10. While it is fast, and they come down like a lightning bolt, it still takes what? 1-2 seconds? That is a very long time in a fight, especially when you know EXACTLY where they are going to attack from (See above.../pun).

I also agree that there needs to be a spectrum, and maybe as Dragoon RPers this thread would be a good location to agree upon how much time and dedication we think it takes. As someone who RPs a Dragoon, I think this conversation is incredibly important if only because I've seen others "pick up" being a Dragoon and consider themselves on par with a character who dedicates nearly every moment of training towards that fighting style, and those who suffer the most are the good and interesting Dragoon RPers by invalidating what they work so hard towards. At the end of the day, if the only thing that defines your character is a gimmick your character probably isn't fun to RP or to be RPed with, and that applies to any character/class.

For me, if you RP a skilled Dragoon that is really all you have time to be good at. So much so your character suffers for it. Flynt's rigid training schedule has cost him money, put a toll on friendships and in some ways affects his social skills on occasion. But I don't do it so I can validate my use of Flynt's jumps in case I ever wanted to, I do it because I think it's interesting to tell the story of a PTSD afflicted pseudo war criminal who doesn't know how to do anything else but hunt monsters with pointy things.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - SicketySix - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:37 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 01:14 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I was also under the impression the initial hits weren't dragoons but projectiles.

Also, I think the point of contention here is the difference between freedom of movement while falling and changing your destination at the peak of the jump. I don't think anyone would mind the latter, but when you become capable of flight with the former no one's going to find that "fair."

We've discussed at length here before about the veracity of people being okay with DRG being rockerlaunchersniperrifles. It basically went like this:

DRG: Sounds fine!
Everyone else: No, it doesn't!

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

It's not a competition.
I don't get the it doesn't have to.be fair?

If that wasn't the case then we'd have this...../em draws his sword and thrust it into Natalie Mcbeef's neck, pinning her to the wall, watching her blood gush down and form a pool on the floor, with an evil laugh he walks out of the Quicksand."

Now I know this is called godmodding, because it is unfair.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Erik Mynhier - 04-14-2015

The alchemist quest shows you used minerals and ingredients to raise the dead....

Roes and Highlanders can with little training (lv15), asper lore can do a forward flip, coming atleast 4ft off the ground in heavy armor with no forward momentum, to shoot energy from their axe (Tomahawk).

There are giant monsters made of energy that becomes matter by their will.

We can ride unicorns...

Dudes strait up shoot fire from wood sticks.

Cat-people...

I think we left physics a while ago. And we all look a bit silly trying to apply/argue real physics to a game with the word "Fantasy" in the title.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Val - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:37 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 01:14 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I was also under the impression the initial hits weren't dragoons but projectiles.

Also, I think the point of contention here is the difference between freedom of movement while falling and changing your destination at the peak of the jump. I don't think anyone would mind the latter, but when you become capable of flight with the former no one's going to find that "fair."

We've discussed at length here before about the veracity of people being okay with DRG being rockerlaunchersniperrifles. It basically went like this:

DRG: Sounds fine!
Everyone else: No, it doesn't!

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

It's not a competition.

I feel quite the opposite. No, it isn't a competition, but yes, it does have to be fair. If someone runs around RPing a Midlander Super Saiyan, I'm going to ignore them. If a dragoon leaps into the air and rockets down at supersonic speeds, only to instantaneously change direction on a dime? I'm going to ignore them. Not only is it not "fair," but it is entirely against any sort of laws of momentum and physics ever. Yes, we have to distill belief of certain things when playing a fantasy game, but the laws of motion still exist.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Khadan - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:20 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 03:12 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 02:48 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote: What if it's just some form of extremely advanced aetherial manipulation, this jump? Either way, it's something that would be available to the 1% in my mind anyway. Maybe that's why I am so lax on the hows.

When in doubt, its magic to Domri. LOL

Well that depends on who the 1% are, too. Do you mean 1% of Ishgardians? Yeah that's a fair number, likely. Probably a lot less, really, as we don't see armies of Dragoons but small 'squads' and individuals. As an example, the amount of soldiers who fought in the American Revolutionary War never amounted to more than 3% of the colonists at any given time. 

Ishgard is a warrior nation with a warrior goddess that has been at war for over a thousand years (and still managed to help boot the Ala Mhigans out of the Shroud). That's a bit of an aside, I suppose.

REGARDLESS, -if- the standing military of Ishgard's force of Dragoons makes up 1% of its forces, which may be accurate, I'm not really sure on the numbers tbh, other than that they are rare and highly specialized, based on what we see and know already, 100% of Dragoons still have jumps and the ability to fight in an aerial fashion. So you aren't wrong but I don't think you're wholly right, either. 

I will say that the one ability I concede as being 'off limits' as per a discussion with Berrod the other day, would be Dragonfire Dive. That was something that only the Azure Dragoon could do, apparently. Still, Dragoons are meant to be powerful, they have to fight dragons in the air, after all. But just like I wouldn't want to tangle with a Dragoon when they have the aerial advantage, I wouldn't want to go toe-to-toe with a monk armed only with my fists, either.

I mostly meant the 1% as more or less the most talented. In my own headcanon, becoming a dragoon is something that takes a lot of training, effort, and time. I can't get behind that it's something that can just be achieved and 'oh look I can leap now', if that makes any sense. I don't find anything off limits (except, yes Azure Dragoon abilities), but I feel like there needs to be a spectrum of reality on how long is spent getting from point A to point B in terms of skill.

And trust me, aerial combat may be great against giant things that fly, but could be disadvantageous against small, grounded targets. And I'd be pretty terrified of monks with heavy jamadhars as I would be terrified of a dude with a giant axe. There's an advantage and disadvantage to everything. I think everything is pretty balanced in the grand scheme of things. Just gotta think outside the box for some.

Agreed! Though I think because of the whole point of "it takes time" keeps coming up there's something I should address for everyone's benefit: Soul stones. As we know the soul stone that the Warrior of Light receives isn't the only soul stone. Soul stones seem to be a pretty massive 'edge' when it comes to churning out competent fighters when and where we need them. There seems to be a fair amount of pomp and pseudo ceremony involved in the passing down of a soul stone, as well. Anyway, it seems that the soul stones certainly seem to cut the time needed to train by a significant margin.

Now I'm not saying that soul stones should be like candy distributed on Halloween during an Oprah viewing, but it might explain how we have Dragoons when we need them despite taking losses and being constantly at war. Just a cheap 5 dollar lunch for thought.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - V'aleera - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:47 PM)Casden Reeves Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 03:37 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

It's not a competition.
I don't get the it doesn't have to.be fair?

If that wasn't the case then we'd have this...../em draws his sword and thrust it into Natalie Mcbeef's neck, pinning her to the wall, watching her blood gush down and form a pool on the floor, with an evil laugh he walks out of the Quicksand."

Now I know this is called godmodding, because it is unfair.
I think what Eva is trying to get at is that not all characters have to be on even footing all the time.

My character is a dragoon and a knight that has been training intensively in combat since her mid-teens. In a combat situation she will outclass characters not designed for combat, or designed to be much humbler combatants.

At the same time, she will never be capable of navigating the merchant/criminal underworld on anything approaching the scale of Jameson Taeros or C'kayah, or possessing of the arcane knowledge of the various mage characters.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Coatleque - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:55 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: I think we left physics a while ago. And we all look a bit silly trying to apply/argue real physics to a game with the word "Fantasy" in the title.

There is a fine line between fantasy and absurdity. Only one of them makes for good role-play.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Val - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:57 PM)Coatleque Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 03:55 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: I think we left physics a while ago. And we all look a bit silly trying to apply/argue real physics to a game with the word "Fantasy" in the title.

There is a fine line between fantasy and absurdity.  Only one of them makes for good role-play.

Pretty much what I stated above. Yeah, you can RP being able to fly around and be an awesome guy that can do backflips and cartwheels in plate armor.

...But should you? Ever?

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Verad - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:57 PM)Coatleque Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 03:55 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: I think we left physics a while ago. And we all look a bit silly trying to apply/argue real physics to a game with the word "Fantasy" in the title.

There is a fine line between fantasy and absurdity.  Only one of them makes for good role-play.

Toon, Paranoia, Amber Diceless, and the weirder parts of Exalted would disagree strenuously.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - ChewableMorphine - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 01:01 PM)Melkire Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 12:48 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: ...can change direction midair...

I would advise re-watching the Heavensward opening cinematic. Nowhere in there does this happen. What you're likely seeing is the sudden cut from one airborn dragoon hurling his polearm to another dragoon leaping in a certain direction only to be taken midair by a dragon's maw (if what you're looking at instead is the sudden "jerking" motion of the first dragoon hurling said polearm, note that aerodynamically speaking, a sudden change in profile can result in increased drag that consequently results in a loss of airspeed and a sudden drop in altitude).

Also the "instant liftoff" looks more like a leap to me. Yes, granted, more likely aetherically assisted than not, "anime-style" powered jumps, if you will.

Interesting side-note: the first major "bolt" that hits the dragon in the opening cinematic is actually a dragoon impacting the dragon's back. Close inspection of its subsequent flailing reveals a dragoon with his polearm embedded in the beast's spine.

Dragoons literally fight like Divekick characters. Straight lines often downward in a diagonal motion. They're the scum of fighting games. Or should I go as far to say the scum of fighting GAE BOLGS HYUCKHYUCKHYUCK I'LL BE HERE ALL WEEK

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Flashhelix - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:37 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

It's not a competition.

This. There are two kinds of RP combat that most people use. The first is freeform, and the second is roll-based. If it's freeform, then you decide if your character is really susceptible to another's attacks, them doing attacks that might be considered wildly more powerful than your character's are up to you if they actually are effective or not, that is, unless the person tries to argue that their character's attacks are such that there's NO WAY yours could beat them. We call these people godmoders and tell them to eat shit accordingly.

Roll-based combat is just that. Left entirely up to the dice rolls. The details of the attacks themselves are just fluff. They can jump around and fly and throw fat cats all they like, but it's the rolls that decide everything, so yeah.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should show up to the Grindstone and start throwing fucking kamehamehas and sprouting angel wings and shit, but if dragoons, whose entire shtick have been the CHECK MY SICK FUCKIN JUMPS throughout the entire franchise are shown jumping high in a trailer, I think it's safe to say that they can jump like that in lore. What kind of vibe you'll give off if you just emote your DRG character jumping all around Ul'Dah, well, is on you.

And this is coming from somebody whose DRG character ICly hasn't pulled off a proper jump in the better part of a decade.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Domri Blackblade - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:57 PM)Kayllen Wrote: Now I'm not saying that soul stones should be like candy distributed on Halloween during an Oprah viewing, but it might explain how we have Dragoons when we need them despite taking losses and being constantly at war. Just a cheap 5 dollar lunch for thought.

I disagree with this. I think an easier explanation could be as simple as children are forced to serve their city-state in some capacity. I mean that war has been going on for forever and it wouldn't surprise me if one of the main purposes of children in Ishgard is to train the future DRG/TK/AST population to contribute to the war.

The WoL soulstone might not be the only one, but part of me doubts they are just laying around in high stock like 'here you go kid'. And remember, the WoL still undergoes the first 30 levels as a lesser version of the job the stone gives.

It's still implied that they spend a lot of time training.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - ChewableMorphine - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:03 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 03:57 PM)Kayllen Wrote: [Snip]

The WoL soulstone might not be the only one, but part of me doubts they are just laying around in high stock like 'here you go kid'. 

It's still implied that they spend a lot of time training.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Ninja job starter, you flat out take the soulstone of a dead ninja. So that kind of makes me think that there maybe is a bunch of soulstones. Probably not like diplomas to a ROG, but certainly plentiful enough to support NPCs like Oboro(?) and Karasu.

Somebody call a lore hound on this, I kinda wanna know the deal with soulstones.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Domri Blackblade - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:08 PM)☆Flynt Reddard☆ Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Ninja job starter, you flat out take the soulstone of a dead ninja. So that kind of makes me think that there maybe is a bunch of soulstones. Probably not like diplomas to a ROG, but certainly plentiful enough to support NPCs like Oboro(?) and Karasu.

Somebody call a lore hound on this, I kinda wanna know the deal with soulstones.

Fair point! PAGING SOUNSYY.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Coatleque - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:00 PM)Verad Wrote: Toon, Paranoia, Amber Diceless, and the weirder parts of Exalted would disagree strenuously.

Disagreement does not automatically ascribe truth to the dissenter.
I can also list meaningless names to a third party and claim the argument invalid.