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Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Printable Version

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RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - ArmachiA - 04-29-2015

I honestly believe it may be in SE's future to dig in at the Character Creation screen, but it wasn't in the cards for a few reasons:

1. Most of the coding from 2.0 had to match 1.0 or be compatible with 1.0. They talked a lot about this in Beta and I really wish I had saved their forums posts, but 2.0 had been running on the back of 1.0 this entire time and there's a few people from Beta who could tell you 1.0's coding was... really really bad. Any major change to the CC coding probably would have rendered any characters from 1.0 useless.

2. For... some reason.... Legacy characters (Character being moved from 1.0 --> 2.0) appearance data wasn't saved on the convenient character saver. They were saved into the character themselves. Any character option from 1.0 pretty much had to remain or else risk losing what those characters looked like forever. People hadn't seen their characters in over a year at that point, they probably couldn't remember the minute details, but SE did everything that they could to keep those details arounds. It wasn't perfect - My highlander male from 1.0 came to 2.0 with bright red hair instead of brown for instance - but adding sliders could have done some numbers of those characters.

1.0 actually did a number to this game. I am of the firm belief we need to get further out from 1.0 in order to see major changes.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Meena - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 05:33 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 05:18 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: That's more than most games will ever allow.

@Meena: It's been explained several times that character customization is in NO WAY an RPer-only thing. It's not even something enjoyed primarily by roleplayers. Almost everyone appreciates high levels of character customization.

Well yes its not perfect, but its not the focus of the game and wont be. Its a competitive full time MMO to some people and those people don't care half as much as we do about being 'different' looking to everyone else. Remakign the character creator would be a waste of resources and rebuilding the engine might have to be a possibility which would bring down the game again for another year and a half.

Im not saying you're unjustified in your opinion, i'm just saying that non-roleplayers spend more time doing actual game things, than having tea parties. And we are such a small percentage that at the end of the day - We don't really even matter as a demogrpahic.

(04-29-2015, 05:43 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 05:33 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 05:18 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: That's more than most games will ever allow.
-snip-

Could SE remake the character creator? I guess. They'd have to spend a lot of time and resources in it, detracting from actual game content. Then they'd have to probably give everyone another free fantasia, like 1.0 to 2.0 so that they can completely remake their characters potentially again.
Essentially this.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Unnamed Mercenary - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 05:57 PM)Datenshi Wrote: I've spoken about this several times, but never on a forum, and because skipping from Page 3 to Page 7 still had this on topic, I just have to ask...

Am I mistaken in believing that there's this sense that dropping the PS3 support will magically turn FFXIV from "Wolfenstein 3D" into "CRYSIS"?

Because that's the sort of gist I'm getting. And it's starting to get a little...

Antagonistic.

Definitely not overnight. I do would say that consoles do affect the design decisions in the game in both customization and UI elements. (Such as, can a controller get to this element? Can this be optimized for certain hardware? What if their TV is only 720p? What if the UI needs to be scaled? etc)

The PS3 just happens to be the easiest target. But if I pull out my new-ish Surface PRo 3 tablet, the game looks/runs even worse. A keyboard and mouse attached don't magically make it better.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Qhora Bajihri - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 05:57 PM)Datenshi Wrote: I've spoken about this several times, but never on a forum, and because skipping from Page 3 to Page 7 still had this on topic, I just have to ask...

Am I mistaken in believing that there's this sense that dropping the PS3 support will magically turn FFXIV from "Wolfenstein 3D" into "CRYSIS"?

Because that's the sort of gist I'm getting. And it's starting to get a little...

Antagonistic.

Short answer, yes.

Longer answer, meh. It would add a lot of flexibility in certain particular areas like zone size, inventory size (maybe?), other things that are limited by PS3's limitations. As a FFXI player back in the old days, I definitely held a sort of resentment of the limitations PS2 support put on that game.

I'm not sure the antagonism is entirely avoidable. That being said, I don't think anyone's seriously angry or annoyed by it. It's just a fact of life where online cross-platform games are concerned. Miffed comments are made, but anyone who finds it that stinky doesn't have to play.

First 2 paragraphs @ Kismet, Rest is towards everyone - Flickering Ember - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 02:53 PM)Kismet Wrote: If we had absolutely no "husky" races to choose from in XIV, I'd be more disappointed about the inclusion of the Au Ra. But that isn't the case. We have Highlanders and Roegadyn. A good handful of MMOs don't even have one "burly" option for players, let alone two. Is it equal to the amount of pretty races we have? No. Is it better than nothing? Very much so.

I have never personally seen a MMO that does not at least include a large race. There are a lot of MMOs though so perhaps we simply have played and seen different MMOs.

I would certainly call MALE highlanders and roegadyn husky. I would not say the same for female highlanders. Female highlanders have an athletic build. They definitely don't have girth, width, big bones, or huge muscles. Female roegadyn I feel are debatable but for the purposes of this thread, let's just go ahead and say they are.

I'd like to break down the aesthetic that the races and genders add. Keep in mind though, it is subjective:

Midlanders: Japanese models
Highlander males: Bara
Highlander females: Athletes
Elezens: Graceful and elegant
Lalafells: Short and adorable
Miqo'te males: Hot anime dudes
Miqo'te females: Cute catgirl archetype that is too beloved to not have
Roegadyn: The large race
Roegadyn males: Jolly giants
Roedgadyn females: Oneechan

I could argue Au Ra being able to add something and I could argue them not, as Hyrist pointed out too, it is subjective. I would definitely say that none of the male races look as intimidating as Au Ra, but on the other hand, they're another muscular dude race (roegadyns, highlanders) who stand just as tall, if not slightly shorter than roegadyn.

The female Au Ra I would describe as 100% by the book cute monster girls. I dunno how they add much from "cute catgirls" but I suppose according to SE's preferred fanbase, it does count as 'variance.'

They're not bad. There are a lot of things to be excited for regarding Au Ra. I don't dislike them and I definitely share a sense of excitement towards them. Though, more in a spectator sort of way--I can't wait to see what my friends end up playing. 

I say this because it is easier to revel in excitement with my friends and with the benchmark than it is in these discussions. On a critical level, I just find the representation of the race to be, well...

Show Content

Not everyone will agree with me and I don't expect them to. They are my personal thoughts but I am certain that from all the "complaining" that I am not the only one. At no point do I want to kill others' joy, excitement, or happiness for the race. I've simply been discussing my opinions because the forums are for discussion and its how I feel.

I don't really think we'll ever get extended character creation options which is why I think having diverse races is even more important. There are lots of things they could have done that could still be done with the Japanese style. Just take a look at all the different creatures from Legend of Mana, and old Square game, for some samples, who boast more creativity than all of FFXIV's playable races combined.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - allgivenover - 04-29-2015

At this point I kind of wish we could have a moratorium on this discussion. This is a site about RPing in XIV. 

Devs don't read this site.

Rpers are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the game population.

There's an entire official forum that IS read by the devs. Here this discussion has just become a tedious debate about something none of our words here will have any effect on.

I suppose we're really here to argue rather than build RP connections.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Flickering Ember - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 06:10 PM)allgivenover Wrote: At this point I kind of wish we could have a moratorium on this discussion. This is a site about RPing in XIV. 

Devs don't read this site.

Rpers are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the game population.

There's an entire official forum that IS read by the devs. Here this discussion has just become a tedious debate about something none of our words here will have any effect on.

I suppose we're really here to argue rather than build RP connections.

I use rp communities forums more for discussion than connections. I think everyone looks for something different in their forums, just as they do in game, or with their preferred fantasy races, or with their preferred styles of RP.
I haven't found any really insulting posts in this thread yet even though I suppose it probably won't go anywhere.

I trust talking with fellow roleplayers than I am with the more antagonistic general fanbase. But you are right, I should probably take my thoughts to the main forum.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Desu Nee - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 06:10 PM)allgivenover Wrote: At this point I kind of wish we could have a moratorium on this discussion. This is a site about RPing in XIV. 

Devs don't read this site.

Rpers are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the game population.

There's an entire official forum that IS read by the devs. Here this discussion has just become a tedious debate about something none of our words here will have any effect on.

I suppose we're really here to argue rather than build RP connections.
Does all discussions have to lead to a grand purpose? We're merely discussing, and I'm positively sure that at some point someone thought of it on reddit and the official channels.

This is FFXIV Discussion, and we're discussing FFXIV. It's alright to think the topic will change nothing, but no one here is arguing at all, and the "tediouness" of this topic is a point of view more than anything. I'm enjoying this chat, and I'm pretty sure other people were, or else this wouldn't be replied again.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Kaniko Niko - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 06:04 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: Definitely not overnight. I do would say that consoles do affect the design decisions in the game in both customization and UI elements. (Such as, can a controller get to this element? Can this be optimized for certain hardware? What if their TV is only 720p? What if the UI needs to be scaled? etc)

The PS3 just happens to be the easiest target. But if I pull out my new-ish Surface PRo 3 tablet, the game looks/runs even worse. A keyboard and mouse attached don't magically make it better.

A fair majority of the complaints about FFXI came from "PS2 limitations". Coming from people who either had no idea or conveniently chose to ignore that the game itself was developed for the PlayStation 2. The console version wasn't the port—the PC version was. Expecting the game to run better just because the PC is supposed to be more powerful is like slapping a Chevy Vega engine in a Chevelle SS and expecting it to run like a 454. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying the same thing that Warren is: There are serious resources to consider other than "Oh, they can do it."

Though, the above isn't to say that I wholly disagree with the possibility of the game becoming smoother around the edges with the lack of the PS3 support. To suggest otherwise is brain-foamingly rabid. But I scoff at the idea that Square is just going to stop what they're doing, drop PlayStation support and re-texture map, motion capture, physics define and general engine overhaul just because. Doubly so when they've shown nothing of the sort with FFXI and nearly every design choice in XIV has had some semblance of resource conservation buried in it.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Warren Castille - 04-29-2015

If this thread was to make attempt to make some sort of grand sweeping changes in the creation process, I could see where that was warranted.

It's not.

It's designed to talk about what we like and don't like.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Unnamed Mercenary - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 06:33 PM)Datenshi Wrote:
(04-29-2015, 06:04 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: Definitely not overnight. I do would say that consoles do affect the design decisions in the game in both customization and UI elements. (Such as, can a controller get to this element? Can this be optimized for certain hardware? What if their TV is only 720p? What if the UI needs to be scaled? etc)

The PS3 just happens to be the easiest target. But if I pull out my new-ish Surface PRo 3 tablet, the game looks/runs even worse. A keyboard and mouse attached don't magically make it better.

A fair majority of the complaints about FFXI came from "PS2 limitations". Coming from people who either had no idea or conveniently chose to ignore that the game itself was developed for the PlayStation 2. The console version wasn't the port—the PC version was. Expecting the game to run better just because the PC is supposed to be more powerful is like slapping a Chevy Vega engine in a Chevelle SS and expecting it to run like a 454. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm just saying the same thing that Warren is: There are serious resources to consider other than "Oh, they can do it."

Though, the above isn't to say that I wholly disagree with the possibility of the game becoming smoother around the edges with the lack of the PS3 support. To suggest otherwise is brain-foamingly rabid. But I scoff at the idea that Square is just going to stop what they're doing, drop PlayStation support and re-texture map, motion capture, physics define and general engine overhaul just because. Doubly so when they've shown nothing of the sort with FFXI and nearly every design choice in XIV has had some semblance of resource conservation buried in it.

I'm in full agreement with you on that. ...not sure if my words are conveying it.

I'm as much a fan of the game being designed for consoles as possible. Granted, I might play it on the PC, I use the controller layout and can't get very far on keyboard mouse outside of short-term situations or RP.

Just saying that as a console-friendly game, certain aspects are not feasible because they'd promote a PC-only environment. The eventual addon/mod system SE keeps talking about is one of them. Who knows how that'll turn out, if it.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Cato - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 06:10 PM)allgivenover Wrote: At this point I kind of wish we could have a moratorium on this discussion. This is a site about RPing in XIV. 

Devs don't read this site.

Rpers are a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the game population.

There's an entire official forum that IS read by the devs. Here this discussion has just become a tedious debate about something none of our words here will have any effect on.

I suppose we're really here to argue rather than build RP connections.
 
A moratorium would be something that, personally, would lead me to consider avoiding coming to this site altogether. If specific posters are being problematic then those specific posters should be dealt with if warnings are not adhered to.

Forbidding the discussion of a reasonable topic is a real turn off for me - and if people do tire of a particular common debate then there's nothing forcing them to engage in a discussion about it.

There's quite a few people who come here - myself included - who want to engage in debate because they enjoy having a discussion that goes beyond 'tel teh poster abov how niec ther hair is'.

Role-play alone doesn't keep me invested in FFXIV either - thus I enjoy discussing stuff that isn't related directly to role-play from time to time.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Hyrist - 04-29-2015

To take personal umbrage on a depiction of a fantasy race, especially when other races have shown opposing qualities, leaves questions on the topic of hot-topic hypersensitivity and its impact on Gaming development. A subject not for here but I will drop a brief comment and move on:

I do not feel that it is right for developers to feel pressured to accommodate their customers personal desires based of political or sociological grounds. I believe that it is, in fact, harmful to genuine creativity and artistic licence. Developers should feel free to create what they feel, and feel that their audience will enjoy. I feel anything less threatens to betray the atmosphere of acceptance and goodwill that forward thinking individuals in both Game Development and Game Consumerism are attempting to grow.

I am willing to field further discussion on that topic privately.

Back on subject of the races and what sort of stereotypes they represent.

I feel that breaking each character down to such stereotypes does the game disservice. Calling the Midlanders  Japanese, archetype for one, strikes me fairly wrong as honestly I found them more to be a general human genenotype. I have to question why such a conclusion was reached. Was it the lack of pronounced facial hair? 

Anyways, I felt that there was an aspect of archetypes that Au Ra fills, which is the more Japanese Animation style facial structure and culture. It seems to follow many of the demon tropes Japanese culture does and hearing that Japan is the inspiration for the naming conventions, the niche becomes fairly clear.

In which case basing the design structure off of Western archetype standards may be an error in approach. Even so, that people say that Au Ra females are only for the cutesy types I think aren't playing long enough with the Character creator.

I don't feel that Au Ra is in any way, shape, or form redundant in the context of what we have in FFXIV. The fact that it may point out to some the limitations of other character archtypes and styles could be used as feedback for future races. I, for one am not opposed to a Race in which the Female is depicted as physically imposing to its male counterparts. However I feel that mine, unintentionally took cues from the character Erza Scarlet and others of her character style. A beautiful-yet-strong character that does not require physical stature to be intimidating.

My FC leader has managed to create a feminine looking Miqo'te male and other such changes on the regular perspectives. So... I feel as if there is less credit than what is due given to the current options available - but pushing the limits of what you can do with these options are always going to fall short over arguments to add more options.

I'm just concerned that when people realize that SE's accommodation of this will be severely limited, based off of reasons that have already been described, that they will not know what to do with the passionate energy they have on the matter and it will serve to harm the community.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Zhavi - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 06:34 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: If this thread was to make attempt to make some sort of grand sweeping changes in the creation process, I could see where that was warranted.

It's not.

It's designed to talk about what we like and don't like.

To kind of echo this...

my real life friends are not into video games, for the most part. Of the friends I have who are, they aren't into them the same way I am. I don't like official forums, as there's always a sense of strangers with the people you discuss things with.

This forum is the closest I'm ever going to get to discussing irrelevant nerdish likes and dislikes with people I like or respect.

I value the ability to read others' opinions and share my own on topics, even if it's pointless in the grand scheme of things and will be forgotten about in a day or three.


But, back on topic . . . given some of what people have been saying about 1.0, I'm really starting to pin my hopes on 4.0 for more variety.

RE: Character Creation: Assessment and Critique - Naunet - 04-29-2015

(04-29-2015, 05:43 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: I think the bad Aion characters image was linked earlier in the thread. There's two. And I saw my friend make the ugliest thing possible in Saints Row III. I'm sure I could go through a bunch of slider-based character creators and make something completely hideous in them all. Just like I could probably manage to do the same in static-option games, although it's significantly harder.

I've said repeatedly that it is possible to improve SE's character creation without sliders. Countering with examples of extreme sliders doesn't actually address my point.

(04-29-2015, 06:04 PM)Meena Wrote: Im not saying you're unjustified in your opinion, i'm just saying that non-roleplayers spend more time doing actual game things, than having tea parties. And we are such a small percentage that at the end of the day - We don't really even matter as a demogrpahic. 

*sigh* Again: Far more than roleplayers place a high value on character customization.