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Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Printable Version

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RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - ChewableMorphine - 04-14-2015

Just to sorta build on my claim, yeah the whole ninja soulstone seems to be commonplace and perhaps rudimentary for the user. It's in the description of the NIN soulstone that it has inscriptions of epic tales and techniques on the gem itself. 

So on the topic of DRG, perhaps the soulstone is the key to their crazy-ass aetherpowerjumps? Like in an in-game standpoint, you can't do ninjutsus without a NINsoulstone (I'm gonna use NIN/WAR for the sake of them being the only class I maxed out past the soulstone), so maybe it's an actual lore mechanic that applies to it's user. A Warrior can't channel the Inner Beast without the soulstone (in which it describes the way of the Warrior, further implying the mastery of the Beast).

That's just my guess.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Flashhelix - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:13 PM)Coatleque Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 04:00 PM)Verad Wrote: Toon, Paranoia, Amber Diceless, and the weirder parts of Exalted would disagree strenuously.

Disagreement does not automatically ascribe truth to the dissenter.
I can also list meaningless names to a third party and claim the argument invalid.

they're hardly meaningless when they're counterexamples

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Verad - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:13 PM)Coatleque Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 04:00 PM)Verad Wrote: Toon, Paranoia, Amber Diceless, and the weirder parts of Exalted would disagree strenuously.

Disagreement does not automatically ascribe truth to the dissenter.
I can also list meaningless names to a third party and claim the argument invalid.

Meta-commentary on the nature of how arguments work are likewise ineffective at the ascription of truth, but I take your point.

For those not in the know, the above are tabletop games in which the absurd is part and parcel and largely the point of the setting. All of them are regarded as classics or significant work in that hobby. 

Fantasy, absurdity - they're all good roleplay vehicles.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Khadan - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:56 PM)Val Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 03:37 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 01:14 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I was also under the impression the initial hits weren't dragoons but projectiles.

Also, I think the point of contention here is the difference between freedom of movement while falling and changing your destination at the peak of the jump. I don't think anyone would mind the latter, but when you become capable of flight with the former no one's going to find that "fair."

We've discussed at length here before about the veracity of people being okay with DRG being rockerlaunchersniperrifles. It basically went like this:

DRG: Sounds fine!
Everyone else: No, it doesn't!

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

It's not a competition.

I feel quite the opposite. No, it isn't a competition, but yes, it does have to be fair. If someone runs around RPing a Midlander Super Saiyan, I'm going to ignore them. If a dragoon leaps into the air and rockets down at supersonic speeds, only to instantaneously change direction on a dime? I'm going to ignore them. Not only is it not "fair," but it is entirely against any sort of laws of momentum and physics ever. Yes, we have to distill belief of certain things when playing a fantasy game, but the laws of motion still exist.

The problem here is that neither you nor I are qualified to make judgements based on what "The laws of momentum" are and how they apply to pretendy fun times.

If you want to say that "I reserve the right to not pretendy fun times with people who pretendy fun times in a way I don't arbitrarily like" that's fine, too. But do own up to what all of this actually is rather than this ovewhelming need I see from people to simultaneously say that they don't want to "Police RP" in one hand and then "But I'm going to suggest we police RP" in the other. it's a bit nonsensical and I'm growing rather tired of seeing that contradiction in terms over and over.

Not to point any fingers at the people who do this, you know who you are after all, but it's a moot point. 

"Does RP need to be 'fair'?" Hmmm. I suppose?

I mean it's, again, rather arbitrary. What is fair? I mean war isn't fair. Life isn't fair. Someone somewhere will always have something you do not have just as you have things others do not have. That may be an aside to 'what is jealousy and why is it a thing' but really, I think it's relevant. This whole thread has been pretty regularly peppered with this weird notion that $persons have a $thing that other $persons don't particularly want them to have for personal reasons. This sort of 'narrative denial' is as tired as the whole talking out of both sides of our mouths arguments made when we want to police something without coming off like we're policing something.

If we're strictly talking "What are Dragoon abilities and how do I counter them as a non-Dragoon who fears that there are aerial Dragoon Drones flying over my house put up there by the NDA (National Dragoon Agency) and at any time they could leap down and spear me in my scrotum for simply uttering the word 'heresy'"? Well that may be a different discussion for a different thread. 

I don't think anyone in this thread or in RP would ever advocate that a "Dragoon" (being of sound mind and body at the peak of his skill and blahblahblah) is going to be able to come by and justify one-shotting your character by simply being airborne. Will ground bound targets or even airborne targets have much to fear from Dragoons? Yes, of course. Just like a Dragoon has much to fear from a Thaumaturge laying down flares and lightning everywhere or a competent archer who might Hawkeye their ass right out of the sky. We're so caught up with one instance and expression of 'power' that we fail to see the rest of the big picture. So let's please cease the fear mongering and realize that we (or our characters anyway) live in a powerful world filled with powerful people doing impossible things. Magic is prevalent and used in everyday life. Some nations have knights that leap through the sky and slay dragons while others having roving armored paladins who dispense justice and protect people and others still come from warrior lineages of fistfighters able to use chakra in ways that could probably cave in a small building. 

Does the enemy of a Dragoon have much to fear from said Dragoon? yes. But does any enemy of any $job have much to fear from said $job? Easily.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Coatleque - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:15 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: they're hardly meaningless when they're counterexamples

When the counterexample is an unknown to the second party, it is not a counterexample. The burden of proof is then laid back on the one giving said example.

In either case, the poster clarified himself and the discussion can now continue.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Erik Mynhier - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 03:57 PM)Coatleque Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 03:55 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: I think we left physics a while ago. And we all look a bit silly trying to apply/argue real physics to a game with the word "Fantasy" in the title.

There is a fine line between fantasy and absurdity. Only one of them makes for good role-play.

But absurdity is a matter of opinion. Personally the parts of physics I find absurd isnt the motions of humanoids, its the sheer number of these dragons and their size. My foray is medicine and anatomy. The angles of the necks would suffocate an animal that big, not to mention the effects on its body by gravity itself, the bones would need to be extremely dence to hold up and that adds to the absurity of flight.

And lets talk bio-sustainability. Creatures that big all have to eat and the numbers... ridiculous. And back a minute to flight. Assuming for a moment that these abominations can fly the wind force generated by their wings, multiplied by their numbers.... it would be biblical forces. The walls would crumble by a flyby.

Point is we can dig into all of it, but to judge another as obserd just because they had the gall to do xyz in THIER rp, no bueno. Just my thoughts on it. We are in a game of fantasy and if want you rp and interactions to be just so, cool. But to dismiss people without even asking them why or how they do as they do, you only miss out. Im not sure when we got so dismissive of people and how they wanna spend their sub, but its how it is I suppose. A shame really.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Domri Blackblade - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:15 PM)☆Flynt Reddard☆ Wrote: Just to sorta build on my claim, yeah the whole ninja soulstone seems to be commonplace and perhaps rudimentary for the user. It's in the description of the NIN soulstone that it has inscriptions of epic tales and techniques on the gem itself. 

So on the topic of DRG, perhaps the soulstone is the key to their crazy-ass aetherpowerjumps? Like in an in-game standpoint, you can't do ninjutsus without a NINsoulstone (I'm gonna use NIN/WAR for the sake of them being the only class I maxed out past the soulstone), so maybe it's an actual lore mechanic that applies to it's user. A Warrior can't channel the Inner Beast without the soulstone (in which it describes the way of the Warrior, further implying the mastery of the Beast).

That's just my guess.

But then you have to consider rarity. Sadly, we see the story of this game through the eyes of someone who is one of a kind. Maybe the surrounding people around the WoL have these stones, but what is 3-5 people in the grand scheme of it all? You are dealing with a specialized story. Does that make sense?

I'm not disagreeing, but it might just be another factor why a lot of the jobs are considered super rare in this world and why a lot of people stick to RPing classes over jobs.

And it's my understanding that there classes like MNK where you unlock your gate without the soul stone. You just short of flash some light and then you are rewarded with it. (I haven't formally leveled since ARR's release, I apologize for my shoddy knowledge.)

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Verad - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:22 PM)Coatleque Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 04:15 PM)Flashhelix Wrote: they're hardly meaningless when they're counterexamples

When the counterexample is an unknown to the second party, it is not a counterexample.  The burden of proof is then laid back on the one giving said example.

In either case, the poster clarified himself and the discussion can now continue.

Conveniently without you responding to the now-clarified counter-example.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - ChewableMorphine - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:23 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 04:15 PM)☆Flynt Reddard☆ Wrote: Snip snop

But then you have to consider rarity. Sadly, we see the story of this game through the eyes of someone who is one of a kind. Maybe the surrounding people around the WoL have these stones, but what is 3-5 people in the grand scheme of it all? You are dealing with a specialized story. Does that make sense?

I'm not disagreeing, but it might just be another factor why a lot of the jobs are considered super rare in this world and why a lot of people stick to RPing classes over jobs.

And it's my understanding that there classes like MNK where you unlock your gate without the soul stone. You just short of flash some light and then you are rewarded with it. (I haven't formally leveled since ARR's release, I apologize for my shoddy knowledge.)

Yeah you don't get to actually physically see another soulstone. I only base my theory off the fact some shmuck died and you got it off of him. Which gave me the assumption that maybe either:

  1. It's a fate trope, you are the chosen one to take the baton.
  2. You just happened to be a bad enough dude to earn your soulstone and begin a higher tier of learning.


RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Coatleque - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:26 PM)Verad Wrote: Conveniently without you responding to the now-clarified counter-example.

You description was adequate enough. I deemed no further argument necessary in the interest of preventing further divergence from the main topic.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - McBeefâ„¢ - 04-14-2015

I think some level of absurdity and disregard of the rules of the natural world is inherent in any good RP setting.

It is true in FF. It's true in almost every popularly played RP game, whether online or on the tabletop.

Games that veer more to strict realism are less popular, as far as I can tell.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Val - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 04:18 PM)Kayllen Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 03:56 PM)Val Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 03:37 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:
(04-14-2015, 01:14 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I was also under the impression the initial hits weren't dragoons but projectiles.

Also, I think the point of contention here is the difference between freedom of movement while falling and changing your destination at the peak of the jump. I don't think anyone would mind the latter, but when you become capable of flight with the former no one's going to find that "fair."

We've discussed at length here before about the veracity of people being okay with DRG being rockerlaunchersniperrifles. It basically went like this:

DRG: Sounds fine!
Everyone else: No, it doesn't!

I don't think RP has to be 'fair'.

It's not a competition.

I feel quite the opposite. No, it isn't a competition, but yes, it does have to be fair. If someone runs around RPing a Midlander Super Saiyan, I'm going to ignore them. If a dragoon leaps into the air and rockets down at supersonic speeds, only to instantaneously change direction on a dime? I'm going to ignore them. Not only is it not "fair," but it is entirely against any sort of laws of momentum and physics ever. Yes, we have to distill belief of certain things when playing a fantasy game, but the laws of motion still exist.

So let's please cease the fear mongering and realize that we (or our characters anyway) live in a powerful world filled with powerful people doing impossible things. Magic is prevalent and used in everyday life. Some nations have knights that leap through the sky and slay dragons while others having roving armored paladins who dispense justice and protect people and others still come from warrior lineages of fistfighters able to use chakra in ways that could probably cave in a small building. 

Does the enemy of a Dragoon have much to fear from said Dragoon? yes. But does any enemy of any $job have much to fear from said $job? Easily.

The only thing I see as far as power is concerned are the main villains in the main quest and the main characters centered around them. Pretty much everywhere I've RPed--ever--it's been common courtesy to assume that those characters are in a tier of their own and your character is simply another individual living in the world. They're god tier. And if they're god tier, and the Ishgardian Elite are a tier of their own as well, then our characters wouldn't have the same power/skills they do.

But that also means a line needs to be drawn or someone needs to figure out how to RP a caste of these elite properly. Everyone wants to be the emo Dark Knight, and everyone wants to be the flippy badass Dragoon. And I will agree that their powers are pretty cool, but I won't budge on their ability to not just dart forward over and over, and how a small, fast moving target can just jump out of the way (provided they see the dragoon coming in the first place).

I suppose the balancing in that would be that other characters would also have super badass abilities, then, to counter it--which I imagine would be employed as they see fit. 

And then you have the people that use limit breaks as their personal special moves.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - McBeefâ„¢ - 04-14-2015

I just let people get away with anything that seems cool and appropriate for the scene at hand.

I dunno.

Just RP peoples.

Have fun wit it.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - allgivenover - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 05:44 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: I just let people get away with anything that seems cool and appropriate for the scene at hand.

I dunno.

Just RP peoples.

Have fun wit it.

I just think consistency is important within your own circle. The community is too big and varied to possibly reach a consensus on this. If you let something slide once and then restrict it elsewhere within the same group it's going to break immersion for pretty much anyone.

RE: Lore drops concerning Dragoon via the Heavensward Opening: - Zyrusticae - 04-14-2015

(04-14-2015, 05:02 PM)Val Wrote: I suppose the balancing in that would be that other characters would also have super badass abilities, then, to counter it--which I imagine would be employed as they see fit. 
Well... yeah. That's the idea.

Every class & job has something OP about them. That's just the nature of Final Fantasy as it is today. Ideally, there shouldn't be too many one-on-one situations to begin with, especially not PvP situations (which I do my best to avoid for very obvious reasons). I mean, if you really have a crippling fear of dragoons jumping on your character's face... bring a shield? It's only fair, after all!

(04-14-2015, 05:02 PM)Val Wrote: And then you have the people that use limit breaks as their personal special moves.
Gods be good.

It's even in the name. "Limit breaks". Surely none are so daft as to ignore that factor?