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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead (/showthread.php?tid=17480)
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Verad - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 05:19 PM)Aaron Wrote: I'm really more concerned about how much weight this discussion actually even holds in the long run. In several months will people even care about there being 10 DRG or whatever as much as now or is this really just a controversial debate just for the sake of it over the immediate span of time?
You're probably right that it's receiving a lot of undue attention at this moment because it's new information. Over time, it will fade off until new players start asking questions about what is and isn't acceptable.
But in those threads, it will become clear that Dragoon is the new White Mage.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Valence - 10-17-2016
Most of the 2.0 jobs are or have been on a slippery slope, it's nothing new.Â
WhM, BLM, SCH and SMN especially. We only always talk about WhM, WhM, WhM as the taboo because it's the most obvious. Even Bard (not a simple minstrel), or Monk, is rather dangerous in my opinion. I would have categorized DRG with those two latter ones, but obviously now it has joined the first ones (all of the casters). I'm rather concerned for all the people playing actual monks by the way, regarding Ala-Migho slowly approaching and all that.Â
But the thing is, again, how far you are willing to go, how far you are willing to stretch things, for that lore doesn't exactly make any job TOTALLY out of reach.
A lot of people often just fail to understand how immensely powerful a lot of those jobs are, in terms of lore, because we are blinded by their balanced gameplay. Take a black mage for example, that can potentially turn into a god of destruction. It's not just a THM with bigger spells, it's a THM with a virtually infinite amount of aether at their disposal, never running out. Same for a WhM. Take a Bard, and the dreadful power of their songs over legions of people, and what a single one can achieve.Â
Are Dragoons or else, that different from those? I am not even sure.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - LystAP - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 05:37 PM)Valence Wrote: Most of the 2.0 jobs are or have been on a slippery slope, it's nothing new.Â
WhM, BLM, SCH and SMN especially. We only always talk about WhM, WhM, WhM as the taboo because it's the most obvious. Even Bard (not a simple minstrel), or Monk, is rather dangerous in my opinion. I would have categorized DRG with those two latter ones, but obviously now it has joined the first ones (all of the casters). I'm rather concerned for all the people playing actual monks by the way, regarding Ala-Migho slowly approaching and all that.Â
But the thing is, again, how far you are willing to go, how far you are willing to stretch things, for that lore doesn't exactly make any job TOTALLY out of reach.
A lot of people often just fail to understand how immensely powerful a lot of those jobs are, in terms of lore, because we are blinded by their balanced gameplay. Take a black mage for example, that can potentially turn into a god of destruction. It's not just a THM with bigger spells, it's a THM with a virtually infinite amount of aether at their disposal, never running out. Same for a WhM. Take a Bard, and the dreadful power of their songs over legions of people, and what a single one can achieve.Â
Are Dragoons or else, that different from those? I am not even sure.
Well, for monks. They have the Shadow Sect, which essentially remained intact after the mainstream sect was wiped out. You fight tons of nameless mooks which are part of it in the MNK storyline.Â
SCH might be a little easier nowadays, especially with friendly tonberries. And NIN could always be one of the countless Imperial Shadows that got abandoned by Garlemeld, when their master died.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Hyrist - 10-17-2016
Virella,
You're trying to assert an absolute negative by claiming there must be an absolute positive.
As for the proof, it's inferred, never directed. Just like there is no point in the game that there are no Dragoons outside the order. Only that the order itself is limited. Your impression of the lore is just as sketchy as anyone elses - especially with SE's propensity of rewriting it at their leisure.Â
Some examples:
"Ascians are Immortal" -
"Tempering is forever!" -
With this many exceptions to their own Lore, just on the surface level, having a character stumble upon a Job Stone, which has been repeatedly shown to be common enough to be excavated, consumed, distributed to the most fatal military station in Ishgard's entire Army (and still have enough to give out to maintain their ~30 men listing for nearly a thousand years) and encountered on corpses. Not to mention used in the creation of Anima weapons really does not seem outlandish by any measure.
You ask for evidence that there are people besides the listed NPCs that are trained in the arts of the Dragoon. You need look no further than Rowena's wares. She has, on no fewer than three occasions, peddled specifically towards those trained in the ancient arts - and to great success (Augmented Artifact Armor, AF2, AF3.) as indicated by the continual growth of Reverants Toll and Idyllshire.
You want to see NPCs that are retired from the field, yet still retain their skill and are free enough from Ishgard's jurisdiction to train others. I've provided two possible, and with that let me add another -
And all of this is ignoring the potential for adventurers to discern their own methods of replicating, reverse engineering or passing along their skills. We already have irrevocable proof that there is a category of adventures we flatly don't see in the NPC field, the so called "Elite Adventures." We are aware that they have the echo, and can stand with the Warrior of Light in several dangerous exhibitions, including hunting primals/eikons as powerful as the Warring Triad in their prime, thanks to simulations of Allag Technology. To claim that these same warriors are not capable of ascertaining the skills of "Jobs", through whatever method, including those pushed as rare to non-existent - or even that their numbers are as few as 23 - is going above and beyond concern for legitimacy in lore - and into the realm that I can only speculate is fueled by insecurity and a desire to legitimize a slice-of life game-play and evade high adventure.
And I don't entirely blame the lore-monger community for doing this, given that the MSQ and plot around it is disjointedly written, often contradictory, and designed with the writing philosophy of singe player RPG. It is just mildly bothersome to me, that they tend to take matters so literally and not see the grey areas the Lore purposefully leaves, and not to mention the writer's revisionist nature (and occasionally terrible localization) and not be more relaxed in communities such as these. This is why on this, more than most other games, I tell people to respect the Spheres of Canon rather than take the lore as gospel - and beyond that, to not take things very seriously.
Again, makes sense that Ishgardian Dragoons are so few in number. Adventure Class Dragoons, however, are likely have out-populated them for a while now - and avoid Ishgard for a multitude of obvious reasons. You can argue to what extent a 'Adventurer Class <Insert Job here>' is skilled, and it is likely to vary wildly (some can't even jump, maybe one's fairy is irreparably weak - And then we have to compare to NPCs, Note that even the WoL couldn't replicate the frequency in which Estinian could Dragonfire Dive.) That's an intelligent conversation to have. And one that would be highly productive to the growth of the community.
But saying that Adventures don't at the very least attempt to replicate these skills and have been successful on a case to case basis just does not seem to be an intelligent deliberation of existing lore and gameplay items to me. It's very contrarian to the core theme of adventurers - which is assisting others and exploring ancient secrets and relics for fun and profit - to outright rule them completely out of a core gameplay design. just because the game's lore says that certain orders are very selective of who they let join them is more than just restrictive, it's unwelcoming.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Virella - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 06:28 PM)Hyrist Wrote: But saying that Adventures don't at the very least attempt to replicate these skills and have been successful on a case to case basis just does not seem to be an intelligent deliberation of existing lore and gameplay items to me. It's very contrarian to the core theme of adventurers - which is assisting others and exploring ancient secrets and relics for fun and profit - to outright rule them completely out of a core gameplay design. just because the game's lore says that certain orders are very selective of who they let join them.Okay, recreating a fighting style as Dragoon is absurd. First of all, Ishgard always shut out outsiders, especially after the Garleans came in. It serves NO purpose outside Ishgard's borders. Dragoon is a very specific fightingstyle, for a very specific reason. Dragons never irritated non-Ishgardians, so why the fuck would anyone want to try to recreate that fightingstyle, if first of all, Ishgardians didn't really interact much with outsiders to begin with. It serves NO purpose outside Ishgard.
Why is so hard for people like yourself that some things you just can't have if you don't create your character to have the fitting background for it? Is it really that complicated? It is "I want the flashy skills but I cba to RP the character fitting for it, deal with it."
And you know what? That's fine. Just don't try to make it canon lore and try to shove it trough people's throats. I'm arguing lore here, not roleplay. I don't give a fuck what you roleplay, as long you don't come roleplay with me. It simply reeks of "muh Otherdian Au ra Dragoon BS" this whole discussion. These Ishgardian bros will find a less wonky, idiotic way to make their characters be fine again. The retired Dragoon, the Exiled Dragoon, I dropped out Dragoon school Dragoon. It's not perfect, but better then this Anakin Skywalker nonsense loopholes.
You're not providing evidence, you're simply pointing out game mechanics. Once more, show me an example of an adventurer being trained to be a skilled Dragoon, by a Dragoon, beyond the Warrior of Light. I'm still waiting for this.
But at the end of the day, yeah, this discussion between you and I clearly shows the levels of how invested people are in lore. I take it stricter then most, and bend my characters to fit the lore instead of the other way around. Hell, I retconned Virella being an Astrologian, and made her an Astrologer purely when I found out it wasn't possible. People were okay with it. You on the other like to just throw your hands up, bend lore to your liking and do whatever at the end of the day. And that is fine. Its not like we will ever RP to begin with.
But if they end up changing the job being open to adventurers and the like? Great, there, we got Dragoons for everyone and their mother again. Just don't pull out shitty loopholes out of your ass, and just wait till SE gives you the greenlight for it.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Domri Blackblade - 10-17-2016
I genuinely believe they made the dragoon numbers so low to purport just how powerful they are. It's supposed to be rare, that's why there are so few. At least, that's my interpretation. If I were to be RPing a DRG prior to this knowledge (and I swear we already knew DRGs were low in number but I can't source why I feel that way, RIP) I would downgrade to an aspiring DRG, failed training for the actual title, etc.
I think it would take less twisting of stated words and presumption. When we RP jobs, we run that risk. I'm someone who personally runs that risk that my understanding of lore can change at an moment and I make sure to have a back up for it.
But I think people are looking at the numbers and what that could be trying to state. Dragoons are extremely powerful.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 06:28 PM)Hyrist Wrote: You ask for evidence that there are people besides the listed NPCs that are trained in the arts of the Dragoon. You need look no further than Rowena's wares. She has, on no fewer than three occasions, peddled specifically towards those trained in the ancient arts - and to great success (Augmented Artifact Armor, AF2, AF3.) as indicated by the continual growth of Reverants Toll and Idyllshire.
Not commenting on the other stuff since I can't really talk about it, but considering the rareness of multiple other jobs (not starting that argument, merely mentioning it), it seems more likely that she's selling to just about anyone with some proficiency (some of the "classes," not Jobs, are "ancient" anyway; Thaumaturge and Conjurer, for example), similar to how the two lalafell wearing BLM gear in the class quest are revealed in 3.0 to really just be posers.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Verad - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 06:42 PM)Virella Wrote: Why is so hard for people like yourself that some things you just can't have if you don't create your character to have the fitting background for it? Is it really that complicated? It is "I want the flashy skills but I cba to RP the character fitting for it, deal with it."
Because there are thematic elements to a given Job that are represented in the skillset, but can be questioned or challenged through altering the origin or representation of those abilities, leading to interesting conflict and RP opportunities.
Because there are vast swathes of blank spaces left unanswered in blanket denials (Really, nobody, in a thousand years, had cause to fight dragons and need to learn a dragon-fighting skillset outside of Ishgard?) that leave plenty of space to create those dread loopholes.
Because we live in a postmodernist society that values the breakdown and reassembly of concepts in fiction into new concepts as well as the questioning of arbitrary sources of authority, so strict adherence to canon is sort of old-fashioned.
Because spite, I don't know. There are plenty of answers, but I don't think any of them would satisfy you. What answer do you want?
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - AlionLucada - 10-17-2016
This reminds me of that period before we knew what Yugiris race was, but we had people here -dead set- on RPing whatever she was. There was a whole group who knew for a fact she was going to be revealed to be a Viera, so they RP'd as secret Viera for months and months.. only for the reveal to be anything but. Those people looked stupid and had to retcon months of RP.
You can get as snippy as you want at people daring to challenge your headcanon, but it's an objective fact that there are fewer issues with RP canon and lore bending if you simple avoid putting your character in a position where they can be effected.
You can RP an expert at conjury, thaumaturgy, swordplay or lancework.. just don't call yourself a White Mage, Black Mage, Samurai or Dragoon. When you start applying labels to yourself before you know all of the lore behind the titles and organizations you only set yourself up for a fall.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Verad - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 07:54 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: This reminds me of that period before we knew what Yugiris race was, but we had people here -dead set- on RPing whatever she was. There was a whole group who knew for a fact she was going to be revealed to be a Viera, so they RP'd as secret Viera for months and months.. only for the reveal to be anything but. Those people looked stupid and had to retcon months of RP.
You can get as snippy as you want at people daring to challenge your headcanon, but it's an objective fact that there are fewer issues with RP canon and lore bending if you simple avoid putting your character in a position where they can be effected.
You can RP an expert at conjury, thaumaturgy, swordplay or lancework.. just don't call yourself a White Mage, Black Mage, Samurai or Dragoon. When you start applying labels to yourself before you know all of the lore behind the titles and organizations you only set yourself up for a fall.
None of the above is actually true in any meaningful way, and presumes certain traits about the community at large that are difficult to determine in a decentralized playerbase.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Kilieit - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 07:54 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: When you start applying labels to yourself before you know all of the lore behind the titles and organizations you only set yourself up for a fall.
Welcome to a train of thought that leads to never roleplaying anything interesting, ever, because it's "too risky" or makes you a "special snowflake" (didn't we get over the term "special snowflake" and the concepts behind it in, like, 2013?).
By this logic, I wouldn't be roleplaying an Au Ra.
I'd reiterate what everyone else said to you on the previous page.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Domri Blackblade - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 08:10 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Welcome to a train of thought that leads to never roleplaying anything interesting, ever, because it's "too risky" or makes you a "special snowflake" (didn't we get over the term "special snowflake" and the concepts behind it in, like, 2013?).
By this logic, I wouldn't be roleplaying an Au Ra.
I'd reiterate what everyone else said to you on the previous page.
Because it's impossible to be interesting and to stick near completely within lore. Sounds more like an issue of the player's creativity than the lore.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Kilieit - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 08:20 PM)Domri Blackblade Wrote:(10-17-2016, 08:10 PM)Kilieit Wrote: Welcome to a train of thought that leads to never roleplaying anything interesting, ever, because it's "too risky" or makes you a "special snowflake" (didn't we get over the term "special snowflake" and the concepts behind it in, like, 2013?).
By this logic, I wouldn't be roleplaying an Au Ra.
I'd reiterate what everyone else said to you on the previous page.
Because it's impossible to be interesting and to stick near completely within lore. Sounds more like an issue of the player's creativity than the lore.
The train of thought that you must know every piece of lore about something before RPing it, or you're a filthy lore-breaker who deserves every retcon you're forced to make, does indeed limit your creativity severely.
Lore is released to us in batches. This was a particularly large batch. But we have tidbits of information about things which aren't fully fleshed out in canon yet, because the next batch of lore about it (a patch, an expansion, a book, an interview... whatever) hasn't been released yet.
These tidbits are interesting, and they inspire our roleplay. I don't think using them, basing things around them, and taking the risk to be wrong if more things come out in the future means we have an "issue with creativity".
As the poster just below my previous post pointed out, I'd like to see how AlionLucada intends to react if the new Garlean lore in Stormblood contradicts most or all of what they've done with their character so far.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Mewnie - 10-17-2016
Okay, seriouspost. I don't know why this has people in such a tizzy. I mean, I'm pretty sure it's been implied that Dragoons are a pretty select club for a while, now.
And besides, I highly doubt that people roleplay with every single person on the server- there's probably dozens of personal/group canons running concurrently.
I mean, dozens of them! DOZENS!
edit: So I guess I mean: You do you and Bob over there will do Bob the DRG and maybe your paths will cross but probably not and who cares, we're here to have fun right.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - AlionLucada - 10-17-2016
(10-17-2016, 08:10 PM)Kilieit Wrote:(10-17-2016, 07:54 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: When you start applying labels to yourself before you know all of the lore behind the titles and organizations you only set yourself up for a fall.
Welcome to a train of thought that leads to never roleplaying anything interesting, ever, because it's "too risky" or makes you a "special snowflake" (didn't we get over the term "special snowflake" and the concepts behind it in, like, 2013?).
By this logic, I wouldn't be roleplaying an Au Ra.
I'd reiterate what everyone else said to you on the previous page.
There's a difference between that and RPing something that flies in the face of what we've been told by the lore team, whether or not you think they're worth listening to or not.
You can RP an Au Ra because it's been made clear they're refugees fleeing to Eorzea. You shouldn't RP a Dragoon because we now know (and have always known) they're an exclusive and very small order of elite warriors. You can RP as a Garlean or Doman because we see hundreds upon hudnreds of Garlean grunts still operating in and around Eorzea and we saw the quests that told us Doman refugees were fleeing to Eorzea. You shouldn't RP a Galrean Legatus or a Doman Princess because these are both high offices and we know so little about that aspect of the lore you're more likely to get something wrong you're going to have to retcon than not.
Nobody is saying you should only RP boring people doing boring things, but you can basically do what you've already been doing already.. just don't apply these titles to yourself or say your character is part of some special organization.