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+--- Thread: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" (/showthread.php?tid=10020)
Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Seriphyn - 02-07-2015
Some of us are more 'carefree' with justifying their RP, which is cool, it's a style, a genre if you will. They will seek out others who have a similar style, and will enjoy their RP. But others like myself prefer realism, and will meticulously look at their character and backstory to ensure that everything makes sense. Admittedly, sometimes this 'sense' is according to a RL standard, and not the lore presented in the game, which is an irony since at least for myself I am quite lore-focused.
Anyway, I have Kale Aideron as pushing twenty years as an Ul'dahn soldier (mercenary troop since 14, then Immortal Flames when it reformed 5-6 years ago). To me, after that long, I would feel I have ground to call him a "master disciple of war", but I don't necessarily feel comfortable with it, since we should all be conscious of not being OP and not trying to look like we're asserting how awesome our characters are. That being said, I have a hard time imagining he'd be defeated based purely on skill by a 20-year-old Kirito-kun Midlander.Â
Instead, I look at him like a video game boss. Exceedingly powerful and masterful but not invincible. In particular, I look at his character traits and see how they would imply inversely to see his detriment. For Kale, that's wanting to be in control of a situation at all times. Domination, etc. Therefore, if an enemy regardless of age or years of experience is able to get a mental edge on Kale by compromising any illusion of his control on the situation, he could be defeated as such. Same reason that 'video game bosses' typically get defeated because of arrogance and hubris. And thus, a 20-year-old Kirito-kun Midlander could theoretically defeat Kale (and besides, using a dice-roll system, it's still equally badass to lose if you have fun with your posts).
Is this okay? Basically, having a very powerful disciple of war whose critical weakness pertains to his controlling personality, which he wears on his sleeve. And moving away from just making this thread about my own character, in general what do people think characters 'need' to justify claiming to be a 'master class', and what should they put in to counter-balance any possible claims of being OP?
EDIT: Wanted to point out Sylas's post. Is very good, especially for me who is not clued in on martial arts generally.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - K'nahli - 02-07-2015
You've basically created a route for those whom aren't as heavily-experienced as your character to still best him if necessary/that is your/their wish, so I'd say you're on the right track at least.
While I have next to no experience with combat RP, I'd only say that be wary of what you're setting yourself up for. In theory the idea may sound great but you're also likely cutting off a lot of potential RP for those whom don't want to play with a super powerful character, whether they are your foe or not.
Having said that, I'm sure you're already aware of that. Good luck in any case ^^
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Seriphyn - 02-07-2015
(02-07-2015, 09:50 PM)K Wrote: You've basically created a route for those whom aren't as heavily-experienced as your character to still best him if necessary/that is your/their wish, so I'd say you're on the right track at least.
While I have next to no experience with combat RP, I'd only say that be wary of what you're setting yourself up for. In theory the idea may sound great but you're also likely cutting off a lot of potential RP for those whom don't want to play with a super powerful character, whether they are your foe or not.
Having said that, I'm sure you're already aware of that. Good luck in any case ^^
Thanks for the reply, what you've said is appreciated
. I would add that it is less a case of 'he is a powerful character because I want a powerful character', but more 'he is a powerful character because I think he would be after x amount of time'. For the day-to-day, it's not really brought up or even central to 75% of RP.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Arelian - 02-08-2015
I think it's important for people who prefer the more "realistic" approach to fighting to remember one simple rule.
Most fights are about luck. Unless you are in a controlled environment with an emphasis on providing both combatants a way to prove their "skill" the vast majority of fights come down to a lucky hit.
There are always factors that come into play that can dramatically skew the luck to one side, but an actual fight is nothing like one portrayed in media.
If you're seeking to balance your "master fighter" character appropriately in accordance to the "realistic" rules, the luck factor is absolutely important to keep in mind! Especially when doing a more freeform combat style.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Seriphyn - 02-08-2015
(02-08-2015, 12:04 AM)Sylas Wrote: I think it's important for people who prefer the more "realistic" approach to fighting to remember one simple rule.
Most fights are about luck. Unless you are in a controlled environment with an emphasis on providing both combatants a way to prove their "skill" the vast majority of fights come down to a lucky hit.
There are always factors that come into play that can dramatically skew the luck to one side, but an actual fight is nothing like one portrayed in media.
If you're seeking to balance your "master fighter" character appropriately in accordance to the "realistic" rules, the luck factor is absolutely important to keep in mind! Especially when doing a more freeform combat style.
This is extremely helpful. I am not clued in on martial arts IRL at all, so I'm merely going on by my interpretation of 'logic' and 'sense'. A strong argument in favour of dice rolling combat!
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Recoil - 02-08-2015
I'm not big on physical conflict RP but when I do I typically shoot for /roll. I feel it often ends up being the most realistic path.
There are times where I've done without it, but usually the fight is either staged or we're comfortable enough to know the limits of our characters and be willing be a little modest when it comes to extent of our character's physically capabilities.
Honestly, most fightin' RP seems to be a clashing of the invincible incompetent and reality ensues tropes, and that while one person's character may hold great respect and value of another character's experience and/or accomplishments, their feats hold little water in an actual encounter; it's more a show of the writers' natural writing and ability to provide a good show, as well as simply be a case of the RNG provided by injected realism.
That's my take on it anyhow. Then again, I've never really had a character fight specifically to win (OOCly). More to actually progress the RP and their story. If they happen to win or lose, well, details details.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - V'aleera - 02-08-2015
I feel like Verad's /roll system is a great compromise between straight playing it out with no determined winner and completely random /roll. Much like Sylas said, luck plays a key role, but the outcome can still be skewed by training and specialization.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Knight Kat - 02-08-2015
(02-08-2015, 01:43 AM)Intaki Wrote: I feel like Verad's /roll system is a great compromise between straight playing it out with no determined winner and completely random /roll. Much like Sylas said, luck plays a key role, but the outcome can still be skewed by training and specialization.
This. The events I've been to where they were DMed with the Fate-14 system actually -feel- like I am playing -my- character. It brings her strengths and weaknesses to life.
Now, to touch on the OP's topic here, I really do agree with it. Kale's been a soldier for 20 years? If my character ever faced yours, I personally would respect such a detail to the fullest. However, I find that there are just as many "high-fantasy" characters as there are "realistic" characters in our community. The lore supports the existence of both types. Some make their characters out to be prodigies. If their RP didn't overlap with each other, there would be no issue to discuss here, but it does.
I have met plenty of characters who seem more "realistic" until I see them do more "high-fantasy" stuff all of a sudden. Also, sometimes a common story can bring these characters based on different themes together.
Now, 20 years is a long time. But he is an Ul'dahn soldier. Has he been to Coerthas, Ishgard, La Noscea and Black Shroud? Has he fought for years in those different environments? Has he faced every type of beast-men? Has he often fought against every type of fighter and mage? Has every combat style and skill been used against him? Is he able to handle any foe with any weapon regardless of his armor and weapon of choice? For example, if sword and shield could be used to deal with everything then other weapons and armor would not be used.
My point is, while he has an impressive amount of experience, other fighters can still likely bring skills and/or weapons to a fight with him that may be more exotic to him. These other fighters don't always need matching experience, or the ability to take advantage of his mental weakness you stated. Sometimes they just need to use something the ol' veteran has never seen before, or something he has had little experience with. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Also, just as strength is not the only factor in a fight, experience is not either. Sylas said it best. Lots of luck, tactics, tools, methods, skills, physicality, stamina, experience, state of mind and even innate talents are all factors that play a part in combat.
Edit: I would like to also state that I'm not trying to minimize the effect of Kale's experience. Such a long time as a soldier does justify at least some badassery.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - K'nahli - 02-08-2015
(02-07-2015, 09:58 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Thanks for the reply, what you've said is appreciated
Nooo ~Â I think powerful characters are of course justified in such cases! I wanted to have a very, strong character in this game initially(not my main) but in the end it didn't seem worth the trouble. I didn't know how to impose his strength and experience over other players and it's not that I wanted him to win all of the time; in fact, I wanted to watch him fail for the first time and see where it goes from there. Albeit I needed to have him win a lot first to get into his mindset and really experience his arrogance and confidence first-hand.
However, I was just too worried about bringing that kind of RP to others though so I never got around to it and ended up remaking that character anyways.
Edit:
Also, Kat made a very, good post so I second everything that has been said in relation to your situation.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Aduu Avagnar - 02-08-2015
I'd like to chime in from the master mage perspective. Like Kale, Nako has been a professional fighter for roughly 21/22 years. although his weapon is magic. He's been practicing it since it manifested at 10, and has been using it ever since.Â
However, though he is skilled in multiple forms of magic, if he was relegated to using only one, a pure practitioner of that art would beat him, hands down. However, what he lacks in purity, he makes up in diversity.
Then there is the subject of melee combat. He has trained with a sword, but apart from for about a 3 month period, he only did it in passing to build up strength and a semblance of skill (think an office worker going to the gym for an hour a day), and again, anyone who has trained for melee combat would likely overpower him if he couldn't escape, or make room to use his magic.
But yeah, most fights simply come down to who makes the first mistake. be that dismissing the opponent out of hand due to them being young or simply making the wrong block to their feint.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Iex - 02-08-2015
This post is personal opinion and not how I expect or how people should Create/RP powerful characters. (This is added so I don’t have to say ‘in my opinion’ every other line.)
First of all, there is nothing wrong with making a powerful character what so ever. The character should be more than their “power level†(snort). The strength of a character should be vehicle to encourage varied and increased Role-play. Also, weaknesses should not be given to ‘balance out the character in combat.’ Weaknesses should be given round out the character in general and should be organic to how you want the character to be. Where the ‘balance’ comes into play it not the mathematical way the character can be defeated, but it should come from the way the characters is Role-played, the situations they get involved in, and how they deal with said situations.
I am going to use my own character for example.
Grave Shadow is a very powerful character, but most folks would not even know that. He rarely takes center stage if he gets into combat with other folks. He does not come off as godly. He rarely even gets into fights to demonstrate his ‘power.’
There is so much more a powerful character can do than step into a fight with an “I’m here bitches†and promptly critical hit on everyone in his way, but since this thread seems to be about combat I will start with that. In a Role-play event, (say something plot related and not Grindstone) where there are two sides of more than one PC or NPC on either side, every character deserves a chance in the spotlight. A powerful character really does not to be in that spotlight to be considered ‘powerful.’
In the case of Grave, if he does get into a combat situation with other individuals on his side, I tend to keep him role to a support role rather than exploding faces. His help allows other individuals to have their moment to shine and it does not make him weak or less powerful if he actually does little in terms of smashing. The other thing is, Grave rarely gets into combat because he chooses his fights and not all of them need his presence, but I will get to that later. If he gets in a one on one fight, that is a different beast all together. If it is an NPC, for case of the storyline you probably have the end of the fight already all planned out. If it is against a player, if you are using dice you can make the low rolls represent bad luck as folks have mentioned or other factors that would cause a powerful character to bumble. If you are not using dice, hopefully an OOC dialogue is also open otherwise it may not end well… or ever end.
On the topic of Realism, “Your character brought down a meteor on the last rp to save our asses why doesn’t he do that all the time.†The age old story sin of a character doing something amazing in once scene but for some reason cannot do it again in the next. An easy excuse is being tired or aether drained however for a powerful character this is where you can round out the character and plug in some interesting aspects that go beyond combat.
Grave does not get into every possible fight he could. This is partly so everyone gets a turn to Role-play stuff, and he also knows that not every fight needs his attention. This part is a bit more tailored to the character than in general for powerful characters, but he does not get involved all the time because he knows other people need to grow, need to make mistakes, and honestly need to suffer to be able to strengthen themselves. Then he also has his own dangers if he uses too much aether, and becomes too known. This is a plot limitation of a powerful character, consequences of things (NPC or not) if he ends up making too big of waves in the leylines. Grave basically belonged to a cult for a good thirtyish years of which despite him being a powerful character, it is filled with NPCS on par with him or far greater which would remind him of that if he does too much. Hence why as a powerful character, he will never get “we gots a problem turn on the Grave signal.â€
“Weaknesses†to round out a character really do not have to be all about combat. Your character hopefully does more than run into battle or pick fights. They are entities with personality quirks, physical limitations, and even the occasional flat out stupidities. Perfection in training does not make your character a Mary Sue, nor does perfection in training mean your character cannot be defeated. Unless your character spends every waking moment in a fight, flaws in combat style are not going to be what people see.
Grave has a few personality quirks that prevent him from doing things, but a big thing that affects both combat and out of combat is that he absolutely cannot heal folks in the usual way. Nature refuses to allow him to channel its power to mend flesh, and arrays designed to heal break down as he tries to apply aether to him. (And fairies just don’t like him) This is a major character plot thing which I will not go into detail, but when it involves physical damage to someone he is as helpless someone who just knows first aid. This is something that bothers him greatly, but he cannot do anything about it. Another aspect is that he is a bit withdrawn from things so often when he could up he just ends up not helping either because he does not know what is going on or feels his help will cause more harm than good. Neither of those are mathematical ways to defeat him, but still round him off somewhat.
What makes a powerful character… powerful is hardly how undefeatable he is. If the character is created with only combat prowess in mind or only role-played in his combat state, he ceases to be a character and more of just a tool. Powerful characters are only powerful or characters if they can relay that strength and relay their flaws inside and outside of combat without being the spotlight whenever they are present. That is actual realism even if your character can summon all three primal at once while balancing a lance on his nose. To create a character with mathematical way to defeat them for sake of being balanced robs them of depth and character and harkens back to video game bosses that have just a pattern you learn to beat them. If everything in RP was balanced it would be very boring thus it becomes a matter of Role-play to make even unbelievably unfair differences in ‘skill and power’ seem irrelevant for a good time.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - K'nahli - 02-08-2015
(02-08-2015, 02:53 PM)Iex Wrote: There is so much more a powerful character can do than step into a fight with an “I’m here bitches†and promptly critical hit on everyone in his way
I loved this part, but otherwise very nice post ^^
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Warren Castille - 02-09-2015
Interesting topic; I grappled with this a lot when I first started going to the Grindstone. Warren is a long-traveled journeyman who's studied sword and shield for nearly a decade in-game. He's also max-slider highlander. How do I reconcile him losing to some tiny little housewife with a frying pan? How can I maintain his integrity as a fighter if he's constantly losing to people "less experienced" than he is?
I couldn't find a solution, so I went in the opposite direction. I maintain Warren is a threat in his proper gear, but to give myself the "John Cena out" I had Warren fight without weapon or armor. The reasoning was that he was confident in his abilities with what he's used to, so he was using the Grindstone to work on being caught in combat without those securities. It allowed me to have him win through brute strength and slowly refine that into something besides haymakers while also giving me an easy "out" for losing; Someone fighting in their preferred style should beat someone fighting outside of theirs. I got to write Warren learning things, they'd get to beat a huge guy, and everyone goes home happy.
It's also got the side effect of boosting Warren's presence: ICly he's only had to draw his weapon with any seriousness a small handful of times. I like to think that when people see him reach for his sword, they realize that shit has in fact gotten real. It does seem that way, certain circumstances recently have indicated.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Gegenji - 02-09-2015
I'm going to have to be grappling with this concept a bit with the alt character I have made (and will be switching to DRK Au Ra once expansion hits, for purely aesthetic reasons). I've mentioned him here and there before, I believe: he's basically a FFTA Judge, serving as the law to deal with disputes and oversee duels and the like.
The idea is that he's ancient. ANCIENT. Like, 50s to even 70s ancient, and having spent almost all of it around combat in some form. Which means that I could always use his age as a crutch to offset his combat capability, but he should also be quite the old hand at it should it come to blows. He should still have quite a bit of presence and air of threat about him should someone seek to draw steel against him.
Then again, I also plan to have him be able to "Red Card" people and possibly provide bizarre rules to the combat he oversees. So that might destroy his credibility some... unless I can actually get away with him somehow freezing the offending player in place as if they were Petrified or Frozen when using the Red Card. Double points if it even defies gravity.
RE: Expectations and balancing of "master fighters/mages" - Warren Castille - 02-09-2015
(02-09-2015, 12:17 PM)Gegenji Wrote: I'm going to have to be grappling with this concept a bit with the alt character I have made (and will be switching to DRK Au Ra once expansion hits, for purely aesthetic reasons). I've mentioned him here and there before, I believe: he's basically a FFTA Judge, serving as the law to deal with disputes and oversee duels and the like.
The idea is that he's ancient. ANCIENT. Like, 50s to even 70s ancient, and having spent almost all of it around combat in some form. Which means that I could always use his age as a crutch to offset his combat capability, but he should also be quite the old hand at it should it come to blows. He should still have quite a bit of presence and air of threat about him should someone seek to draw steel against him.
Then again, I also plan to have him be able to "Red Card" people and possibly provide bizarre rules to the combat he oversees. So that might destroy his credibility some... unless I can actually get away with him somehow freezing the offending player in place as if they were Petrified or Frozen when using the Red Card. Double points if it even defies gravity.
I don't know, I could see it working at Flynt's thing on Fridays. Allegedly the rules allow for over the top everything. Beyond that, I could see it being worked on as a "serious" post.
"STOP. You will NOT engage me with a {KNIFE} today, ON PAIN OF DEATH and more likely just taxes. Instead I implore you to bring a {STAFF} to bear against me." The old Au Ra gazes into your soul, and a part of you realizes his statement is less of a request and more of a demand.