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+--- Thread: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') (/showthread.php?tid=11074)
Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Seriphyn - 04-12-2015
For over a year I have played Kale as more NPC-than-PC, an ordinary soldier who is surrounded by extraordinary adventurers. Completely physical in terms of combat, more of a Western-style than Japanese-style character. However, over the many months of roleplaying, Kale has become enough of his own character that I no longer have to rely on being plain and mundane to be a unique, freestanding character.
The Heavensward trailer challenged me with one question; "If the elite of Ishgard can do feats like that, then what can the elite of other city-states do?". I have to abandon the idea that this isn't a DBZ universe, and that if your character has any amount of experience as an Eorzean soldier (who are inherently blessed with aether manipulation), they could accomplish various extraordinary feats. With someone of his rank and presence, he can no longer just be a background NPC.
Mages and dragoons aside, what can other Disciples of War achieve that, while not as acrobatic as Aetheric Jumpingâ„¢, carry equal worth in terms of power? Not necessarily jobs; we know monks have chakra...but what could classes do? Specifically for myself, I'm trying to think of the feats Gladiators could pull. Some have suggested 'manmoding' things, and proto-Raubahn feats of extraordinary strength and resiliency. So while a Dragoon comes jumping down on my Gladiator, a powerful swipe of his sword upwards knocks the Dragoon back, who lands several yalms away. And so forth...
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Aaron - 04-12-2015
Here's how I look at it. Other people are free to disagree, as always.
Every FF game to my knowledge has fodder that can
- Dodge bullets on occasion (big one)
- Use Elemental Magic (big one)
- Use summons (not necessarily fodder but yeah)
- Some can do stuff like jump higher or run faster (SOLDIER or SeeD as a GROUP were not special snowflake but just some individuals in it even then, you see the wild shit some fodder do anyway)
Now I know XIV is not (other FF games) but, you've seen lalafell take on giant monsters and run a syndicate. You've seen a giant roe struggle to break a boulder in the MSQ that was half his size. And you've seen magic users dodge bullets from gunblade welding Garleans in the OP movie.
Your character is not fodder, but on consensus they are not every other characters hero. So everyone has a spectrum. Mine is probably more lenient than others.
So, why can't you? Long as you're not warping dimensions or dropping planets on people im perfectly ok with people using unique moves the public might consider op so long as it's not something like (You must be standing in this spot preaching to the moon at this time to happen)
For example, Aaron is a Rogue, he can't use any mudra, but I still use Hyouton because Aaron is ice affiliated so therefore, I see no issue. He also edges over his weapons with ice and can freeze things (to an extent) but just because I IC make it known Aaron can control ice doesn't mean I'm going to get in a fight just to purposefully flash freeze someone on a whim because why not?
A rule I DO like tho - If the roll (if you use rolling) is higher, the more fancy and powerful your attack or defense can be. The lower, the weaker etc.
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Val - 04-12-2015
I'd say for a gladiator, just dive out of the way. The jump is only one directional, or.. well. It should be. Classic anime tropes of being able to change direction on a whim instantaneously aside, it should be very difficult for them to pinpoint a target that is at least aware of their situation. I've said this a million times before, but I feel that dragoons are meant to fight dragons--like in Heavensward. They drop down on large, slow moving targets in order to make an impact. That's their whole purpose. A much smaller, faster target will be a lot harder to hit.
For your last paragraph, I plan on RPing Val's ninjutsu abilities more along the lines of geomancy. It's stated in the lore that the ninja borrow the aether from the objects of the world around them, so if he's not around a source of water, he can't use anything related to water. Unless, of course, he melds the various things together to create water, which is more or less the aetheric manipulation involved in casting mudra. I plan on that taking a lot longer.
Ninja also have the Shukuchi ability which I think is a bit OP and I've never used it (or any other mudra abilities for that matter) in combat. Why? Because Val's a ninja, or will try to be. He's not going to run around showing off his skills and telling everyone he's a ninja. Anyway, back on topic! Shukuchi's lore states that the caster physically melds two spaces together in order to instantly teleport themselves to that space. It doesn't say it has to be a space that they can see, nor does it state that it has any limitations on movement--all we have is the in-game limitations that are put in place strictly for balancing purposes.
Taking out the limitation and using it more as an instant transmission-styled move, the caster still has the ability to teleport themselves into walls and the like, so it'd be pretty dangerous to use without being able to actually see the location anyway. However, the possibilities of its use in combat are pretty extraordinary.
It states in the lore that the caster cannot change direction during the movement--they just appear at a different place. This means that if someone is being thrown north, even if they teleport somewhere else, they'll still be going north at the same force and speed they were originally being thrown. I won't really go further into detail with this unless asked, but I think the implications as to what is possible with this is pretty clear.
I also try not to limit my character's abilities to in-game spells. I imagine Ninja could do more than shoot lightning from the sky and breathe fire, as well as gladiators doing more than just slashing swords (and paladins in regards to their light-based skills).
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Chris Ganale - 04-12-2015
I'm sure it's not what you have in mind, but I already break the combat system with Chao in that she can fistfight and cast magic at the same time after extensive and lengthy training to cast spells faster and on the move.
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Spiritual Machine - 04-12-2015
I always thought that every great feat of skill in this game expended at least a little aether. I've seen pretty basic NPCs perform exceptional moves such as shooting a bow out of another archer's hand, discharging energy from a lance or fist, throwing multiple precision knives while spinning, splitting boulders with an axe... I've also seen aether transferred from one person to another so that they can perform even greater physical attacks.
This is a magical world. Why wouldn't these things be possible or able to be learned by most adventurers?
There's only two things I really think need to be considered in all this. One is that it's just not fair for your character to be objectively more powerful than any other character or undefeatable--roleplaying is a multiplayer affair where no one is the hero and everyone ought to be on more or less equal ground.
The other is that your character ought not be entirely defined by your upper limit in combat. It should be acceptable to tone it back or to be defeated in combat, because that's not all your character is about, and sometimes tone and situations in certain scenes merit certain outcomes. The object of roleplay is for everyone to have fun.
So be flexible, I say! All things in moderation--especially moderation.
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Yangh - 04-12-2015
When it comes to this type of combat first and foremost it about communication and simply put, excellent descriptive writing. A bit of common sense and moderation doesn't go a miss either. Can you do some funky stuff? Sure! Just don't forget that there are pro's and con's to these very special attacks.
We see that even in the MSQ cut scene with Raubahn. Is he extremely strong when he uses his aether like that? Yes! But he sure as hell isn't as quick as Illberd (I forget if that's the right spelling.). Illberd is MUCH faster and seems to switch the way he uses his aether for such purposes, juggling between strength and speed, but never having both at once.
I guess what I'm saying is... be sensible with it. Do cool things, plan for what happens when those things miss, backfire, are countered, ect. Assume that you're not the only one who can do these things. What happens if they can equally defend against what you did with something equally as flashy or impressive?
Forward thinking and an understanding of consequence on both sides.
I'm rambling. >.<;
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Makyn Loneseeker - 04-12-2015
(04-12-2015, 06:14 PM)Yangh Wrote: When it comes to this type of combat first and foremost it about communication and simply put, excellent descriptive writing. A bit of common sense and moderation doesn't go a miss either. Can you do some funky stuff? Sure! Just don't forget that there are pro's and con's to these very special attacks.
We see that even in the MSQ cut scene with Raubahn. Is he extremely strong when he uses his aether like that? Yes! But he sure as hell isn't as quick as Illberd (I forget if that's the right spelling.). Illberd is MUCH faster and seems to switch the way he uses his aether for such purposes, juggling between strength and speed, but never having both at once.
I guess what I'm saying is... be sensible with it. Do cool things, plan for what happens when those things miss, backfire, are countered, ect. Assume that you're not the only one who can do these things. What happens if they can equally defend against what you did with something equally as flashy or impressive?
Forward thinking and an understanding of consequence on both sides.
I'm rambling. >.<;
![[Image: Carpet-bombing-Tora-bora.jpg]](http://thelondonpost.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Carpet-bombing-Tora-bora.jpg)
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Erik Mynhier - 04-12-2015
To date Erik has used aether on many occasions. Most notably and commonly in the following ways. Note that Erik has ooc had 3 years of conjury training early on in his life and also over the course of his early life as his mother was a conjuer as well. Also note that several but not all of his aetheric abilities stem from enchanted items more then himself.
1. Crystal Eye
Erik's right eye was lost in a fight with his childhood friend. The eye is made of an aether shard treated by a joint effort of the alchemist and goldsmith guilds. The eye has 3 abilities. First it "looks" real via glamour. Second he can see through via aethiric attunment, even if its out of his head up to 100 fulms. And third it allows him to "Lybra" or see anothers aura to assess the person's health, as a side effect he can scan the heart rate as a makeshift lie detector.
2. Battle Ring
Using the same technique as the aether network (converting matter into energy, transmitting the energy, then reassemble the matter) the ring can convert Erik's his battle armor into aether and store that energy within it. It allows him quickly go to arms.
3. Conjury
Not tied to an item Erik has very basic conjury ic. He cannot heal a complex wound but he can heal basic injuries and at time with much concentration and exhaustion once stopped the bleeding of a deep wound but that was a bit of a fluke.
4. Aetheric Power
In a world where aether is not only a fact of life, but where it is, as stated in the lore, abundant, my thought is that is an advantage no army would pass up. Even if there was no aetheric training in the three main militaries before the issue of the empire, there would be after the first attack. The empire is weak in aether, that is to much of an advantage to pass up. That said as a Flame soldier Erik can do channeled aether skills. Focusing the energy to boost his strength and stamina for short periods is a common reality and is reflected in his ic combat. As a note he can use as his ultimate skill, Circle of Scorn, which I balance by saying it exhausts his aether leaving him weak for hours or more depending on other activity.
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Chris Ganale - 04-12-2015
...Tell me more about this battle ring.
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Knight Kat - 04-12-2015
(04-12-2015, 04:23 PM)Val Wrote: I'd say for a gladiator, just dive out of the way. The jump is only one directional, or.. well. It should be. Classic anime tropes of being able to change direction on a whim instantaneously aside, it should be very difficult for them to pinpoint a target that is at least aware of their situation. I've said this a million times before, but I feel that dragoons are meant to fight dragons--like in Heavensward. They drop down on large, slow moving targets in order to make an impact. That's their whole purpose. A much smaller, faster target will be a lot harder to hit.
I also try not to limit my character's abilities to in-game spells. I imagine Ninja could do more than shoot lightning from the sky and breathe fire, as well as gladiators doing more than just slashing swords (and paladins in regards to their light-based skills).
^^^^My perception is pretty much this, but I'd like to add more on what we can see in-game.
In order to see what some classes are capable of, one only need pay attention to cut-scenes in the MSQ and Class quests. MSQ and Class Quest spoilers below!!
When it comes to character power balancing, it can be frustrating for those who are supposed to play competent fighters. Do we power our characters up to match with those who can kick boulders at hordes of enemies, or do we scale more on the "realistic" level like characters in Lord of the Rings? There is enough diversity in the community to where scaling either way can cause mismatch in RP scenes.
My solution? I have recently thought of a way to scale Kiht somewhat accordingly to whatever type of reasonable, lore-supported power-level that is required for the plots she's in.
I will be a bit vague as I intend to reveal my idea through a story I plan to post in the Town Square section of the forums, but it has to do with an object she can use only in certain circumstances. I found support for it in the lore, so it's not lore-breaky.
I have to do this as Kiht is currently involved in two totally different plots on two different sides of the spectrum - one has characters more on "realistic" level while another has characters on a more "high-fantasy" level. I don't want to back out of either as they are both important to Kiht's story.
Most of the time, Kiht is a skilled Huntress on a more realistic level of ability. However, when the time is right, I can have her use something more special to make her stand a chance against things and people more on the "High-fantasy" level of ability. It will have consequences though, and she won't be able to use it in certain situations even if things are dire.
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Aaron - 04-12-2015
. Crystal EyeÂ
Erik's right eye was lost in a fight with his childhood friend. The eye is made of an aether shard treated by a joint effort of the alchemist and goldsmith guilds. The eye has 3 abilities. First it "looks" real via glamour. Second he can see through via aethiric attunment, even if its out of his head up to 100 fulms. And third it allows him to "Lybra" or see anothers aura to assess the person's health, as a side effect he can scan the heart rate as a makeshift lie detector.Â
^ this is awesome as hell. Reminds me of the Sharingan.
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - S'imba - 04-12-2015
S'imba has aether abilities after being extensively experimented on. Particularly the elemental abilities that the ninja gets. (Actually kind of ironic since the whole thing started before ninja showed up.) Basically works the same where he's manipulating the outside elements. Though I like to get a little more creative and put some effort into my posts instead of just saying S'imba casts Raiton.
Basically if you can find a explanation as to why your character can do something I say go for it. Aether is a force that permeates every bit of life in this world. So learning to manipulate it would be a fairly accessible subject and more than likely any combat type wanting to further themselves would try and figure out how to add aether to their abilities.
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Erik Mynhier - 04-12-2015
(04-12-2015, 07:59 PM)Chris Ganale Wrote: ...Tell me more about this battle ring.
Well I was having a bit of fun with macroes one day basiclly made a sailor moon style transformation macro. My buddy, who played a aetheric scientist but saddly no longer who is in game, suggeated that we rp that me makes a ring doing as I said ic. We rped it out and I have had it ever since. I ic made it the tipping scales ring I wear on my shield arm. Come by sometime and see the macro. Ill even give you the macro and rp making one for you if you like.
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Chris Ganale - 04-12-2015
Well, the concept intrigued me because one of the biggest problems I'm having with tech'ing out Chao the way she's supposed to be is that in other settings, she relied heavily on having magitek hammerspace which there's like, precisely zero precedent for in the lore. So your ring interests me greatly, and she might have to find reason to pay a visit.
(Read: I need to create a reason for her to go back to Ul'dah now >< )
RE: Aether for fighters (or 'Dragoon OP') - Flashhelix - 04-12-2015
Oskwell's really fast
and uh
he's really really fast
that's about it