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+--- Thread: About "surnames" (/showthread.php?tid=12489)
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About "surnames" - Lilia Lia - 07-08-2015
So, as we know, the second part of a person's name in many of the races is not really what you would consider a "surname" in the real world because it does not tie them to a family or genealogy, per se. Hellsguard and Lalafell second names are just the second part of their names, for example. A Dunesfolk named "Lilia" can only have the surname "Lia" because it strictly derives from the first name.
And miqo'tes have their own thing going on, of course. It would be absurd to call someone "Mr. Tia" since "Tia" is not a family name.
The question I have about this:Â is there any indication that the second part of the race names is used the way we use "surnames" in common speech?Â
I ask because I get called "Lia" or "Miss Lia" a lot and I'm not sure about it. My character is also pretty formal and talks about Redolent Rose a lot, and I've been calling him "Sir Redolent Rose" because I don't know how exactly to formally refer to him. I could probably answer this one myself by reviewing the conversations in the Weaver questline so I'll have a look at that tonight. But it would make sense to me to refer to Hellsguard by their second name since that's the noun and I'd think "Mr. Boulder" sounds better than "Mr. Hoary."
I didn't have the good sense to take note of any of this during the MSQ so I'll have a closer look later.
Just wondering what the RPC opinions are on what constitutes a "surname" and how it varies among the races.
RE: About "surnames" - Melkire - 07-08-2015
If I'm not mistaken, tribal Seekers of the Sun are the only case where you can't reasonably substitute the second name as a family name. This is due to the fact that their "families" are their tribes, and their tribes are denoted by the first letter of their given name. U'odh Nunh, for instance, breaks down as "Odh of the U Tribe" with Nunh as their title (which denotes breeding rights, but that's an aside).
I do know there's a lore tidbit for loading screens that didn't make it into the game that specifies that Plainsfolk names are typically given together. "Teledji Adeledji," for example. Never "Adeledji" and only rarely "Teledji".
Never encountered any issues with other races when addressing other roleplayers' characters by their second name, personally speaking, but I'm not too familiar with how this should be handled in the case of Hellsguard. Up until now, I've treated their names as given name and surname.
EDIT: PLAINSFOLK get both names used, not Dunesfolk. Derp derp. Thanks Souns.
RE: About "surnames" - Lilia Lia - 07-08-2015
(07-08-2015, 12:47 PM)Melkire Wrote: I do know there's a lore tidbit for loading screens that didn't make it into the game that specifies that Dunesfolk names are typically given together. "Teledji Adeledji," for example. Never "Adeledji" and only rarely "Teledji".
"Nanamo" gets referred to as "Nanamo" a lot, doesn't she?
RE: About "surnames" - Unnamed Mercenary - 07-08-2015
It gets a little more complex based on race/clan.
Certainly, Au Ra, Elezen and Hyur have it easiest. WE've all got given names and surnames and it works well. (Even if Xaela surnames are tribes, they're also basically big families).
When we get to Lalafell, we see that PLainsfold and Dunesfol have slightly different ways to refer to themselves. (And SE makes a specific note of this with Teledji Adeledji).
For Miqo'te, Melkire's already given a good example of Seekers. Keepers are fairly normal in terms of having a given name and family name. (Even if the males' names are based on their mothers).
And For Roegadyn, it gets a little more complicated. To my understanding, they don't have family names at all. Sea Wolf are basically [given name] [son/daughter of parent name]. Hellsguards are said to follow the same procedure, but because a Hellsguard leaves their family, they often split their given name into its two parts and use that as first/last name instead. I've found I would pick whichever part of the name sounded "better" for me.
In the examples Obsidian Hornet and Iron Sea, I found using Hornet and Iron worked for me. But the only thing stopping me from using Obsidian or Sea was just person preference. Maybe the Roegadyn in question has a nickname or something they like?
RE: About "surnames" - Gegenji - 07-08-2015
(07-08-2015, 12:47 PM)Melkire Wrote: I do know there's a lore tidbit for loading screens that didn't make it into the game that specifies that Dunesfolk names are typically given together. "Teledji Adeledji," for example. Never "Adeledji" and only rarely "Teledji".
Meanwhile I'm over here with Chachan and Gogon who readily go by just first name or a shortened form of it.
I was actually a bit perplexed by this myself when I decided to make an entire Lalafellan family. What would their naming conventions be like? Would anything be shared? The closest thing we have for examples are the brothers in the Thaumaturge's Guild with regard to Lalafell families.
Ultimately, I decided to make my own family spin on it - since I'm making this strange family line of Doman Lalafell. And it is this:
1.) All males have the last name "Gegenji" in order to show respect to their ancestors and honor their family line. As such, through normal Dunesfolk naming conventions, the first name is some manner of AA-nji. Examples: Chachanji, Gogonji, Zozonji.
2.) All females take the naming convention of the mother to show respect to her and the family that married into the Gegenjis. Example: Jijinya Jinya married Zozonji Gegenji. The daughter borne from this is Nininya Ninya. Should Chachan marry someone, any daughters born from her would also share the mother's naming convention.
So, referring to either of the boys as Mr. Gegenji would work fine. Because that is still technically their surname.
The big thing here, though - which I noticed later - is... this is purely for marriages between Lalafell, and Dunesfolk at that. If Chachan ended up marrying, I dunno, some Hellsguard girl named Token Example... what would happen with the name? I've pondered a bit on this and came to this conclusion: the format... wouldn't actually change much.
Basically, if it's a boy, the last name would still need to be Gegenji to honor the father's side. Whether they have a matching first name or not due to not being fully Lalafell... would be up to the parents, I suppose. And the kid later, if they wanted to more fully embrace the Gegenji side. Maybe having a middle name that's one or the other to balance things out?
As for the girls, it's even easier. It's matching the mother's naming convention to honor her line. So, if they have a completely non-Lalafellan naming convention, then it's fine. Token Example could name her half-Lala/half-Roe daughter Brave Popoto and it still fits the "rules" I set for myself. Could even give the girl the Gegenji last name too if she wanted, if it could "fit" for the race (Hyur, for example - Nadia Gegenji or something).
I've... kinda gone on a bit of tangent, but hopefully something in that either strikes your fancy or helps spur some creative ideas of your own?
RE: About "surnames" - Shoshopu - 07-08-2015
Don't NPCs use the last half of your name as a surname in dialogue, though? I don't remember any specific examples but I'm almost sure NPCs call you "Miss/Sir <"last name">" once or twice. Granted, that's wrong, and maybe only hyur NPCs do it or something, if one were to make a list of the instances it happens, but I want to think it happens. Would that I remembered anything specific.
As for how we handle it in RP, Shoshopu doesn't mind at all just being called "Shopu". She sees it more as being a shortening of her first name than anything, which, I mean, it is, technically. Fyrilsunn gets called "Sir Fiandoensyn" every now and then too and I think he doesn't mind it as much as strangers just shortening his name to "Fyril", for example. I think as far as in speaking and paperwork and stuff it's fine to use Roegadyn (Sea Wolf) last names in the way we'd use surnames, even though it's not technically a family name per se. I should stop posting on Fyrilsunn's behalf since he's got an account to lurk with now
RE: About "surnames" - Unnamed Mercenary - 07-08-2015
(07-08-2015, 01:38 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: Don't NPCs use the last half of your name as a surname in dialogue, though? I don't remember any specific examples but I'm almost sure NPCs call you "Miss/Sir <"last name">" once or twice. Granted, that's wrong, and maybe only hyur NPCs do it or something, if one were to make a list of the instances it happens, but I want to think it happens. Would that I remembered anything specific.
I get a mix as a Highlander male. I played all of 2.0-2.1 as a Miqo'te Keeper male and they always used first name, from what I could remember. When I switched to Elezen male for a bit, it'd go back and forth as well, depending on how polite a person was trying to be.
RE: About "surnames" - Sounsyy - 07-08-2015
(07-08-2015, 12:50 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote:(07-08-2015, 12:47 PM)Melkire Wrote: I do know there's a lore tidbit for loading screens that didn't make it into the game that specifies that Dunesfolk names are typically given together. "Teledji Adeledji," for example. Never "Adeledji" and only rarely "Teledji".
"Nanamo" gets referred to as "Nanamo" a lot, doesn't she?
Because the lore quote in question is actually related to Plainsfolk, not Dunesfolk.
Quote:Plainsfolk males─notable Syndicate member Teledji Adeledji included─usually go by their entire full name, rather than first or last name alone.
Nanamo on the other hand is Dunesfolk, and from what we've seen of their naming conventions, family names are the "middle name" so to speak. Nanamo Ul Namo. Etc
RE: About "surnames" - Hammersmith - 07-08-2015
Hellsguard don't have true 'names' since they don't see themselves defined by their bloodline. Â They aren't their family, and they aren't carrying that on their shoulders. (Or, at least, the ones who set out from the Spine and into the world aren't)
The few bits of Roe lore we have say they pick a set of words that are easy for Outlanders (Everyone else who doesn't speak the Totally Not Welsh Roe tounge), to pronounce. Â
Some, as suggested by Curious Gorge, get -given- a name that's kind of like a nickname and that just sticks, becoming their name. Gorge, in particular, says his name has a 'funny story' behind it. As some people have Noted, Hammer is in the habit of calling people by 'Nicknames' and "Given" names rather than their actual names, because that's how he was brought up and the idea that people aren't always going by some 'contextual' name just never grocked with him.
You can call someone like Hammersmith "Mr. Hammersmith", but that's not his last name. Â You're just putting it there because it's the second word in his presented/chosen name here in "Not the Spine" land. Â Works Like a last name, but there's never going to be a family line of Hammersmiths or the Hammersmith family. Â At best you'll end up with someone tacking on "Yannow, Hammersmith's kid" onto the end, to denote family alliegance which, as already pointed out, Hellsguard Roe don't put a lot of stock in.
Mr/Miss/Mrs WORKS with Hellsguard names, but you're going to be calling people Mr. Gorge, Ms. Wind, Mr. Monkey, Mrs. Bloodsky. Â Not by an actual family moniker and it probably isn't any more or less formal to call them by the second part of the name. Â I imagine using both words of the name is more a respect/honorific/YOU PAY ATTENTION, since it's kind of like a kid getting called their entire First/Middle/Last name by their parent. Â It draws attention.
RE: About "surnames" - Caspar - 07-08-2015
Npcs often say Virara or Miss Vira unless I'm remembering wrong. That gets awakward on my RP character, as her full name is obviously Virara Vira (duh) but because I didn't want to confuse my characters, I substituted a background related epithet for the surname. Virara only ever introduces herself as just Virara anyway, even if the full name is obvious.
RE: About "surnames" - Melkire - 07-08-2015
(07-08-2015, 01:45 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:(07-08-2015, 12:50 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote:(07-08-2015, 12:47 PM)Melkire Wrote: I do know there's a lore tidbit for loading screens that didn't make it into the game that specifies that Dunesfolk names are typically given together. "Teledji Adeledji," for example. Never "Adeledji" and only rarely "Teledji".
"Nanamo" gets referred to as "Nanamo" a lot, doesn't she?
Because the lore quote in question is actually related to Plainsfolk, not Dunesfolk.
Quote:Plainsfolk males─notable Syndicate member Teledji Adeledji included─usually go by their entire full name, rather than first or last name alone.
Nanamo on the other hand is Dunesfolk, and from what we've seen of their naming conventions, family names are the "middle name" so to speak. Nanamo Ul Namo. Etc
MY MISTAKE, I ALWAYS GET THE TWO CONFUSED.
RE: About "surnames" - Gegenji - 07-08-2015
(07-08-2015, 01:57 PM)Melkire Wrote: MY MISTAKE, I ALWAYS GET THE TWO CONFUSED.
Clanist.
*quietly hides the fact that he forgot Adeledji was a Plainsfolk too, even though he should've recognized the AC-BC naming convention as opposed to the Dunesfolk's AAC-BBC*
RE: About "surnames" - FreelanceWizard - 07-08-2015
On the topic of Seekers of the Sun, do note that the surname of a Seeker female is her father's name (for example, L'yhta Mahre means Yhta of the Vipers, sired by L'mahre Nunh). So, in a sense, it's a bit similar to a modern surname in that it connects her to her father, though individual Seeker reactions may differ to its use. Some may swell with pride at being connected to a strong male of their tribe, while others may get offended that you're not recognizing their (or their tribe's) accomplishments.
Keeper of the Moon surnames are, however, traditional surnames. Each one represents a particular family.
RE: About "surnames" - Chris Ganale - 07-08-2015
NPCs throughout the game will also make use of whatever your last name happens to be with a Mister/Miss/Master tacked onto the front. Especially grating all through 3.0 on Tahz, with people going "Master Tia" and I'm just like "gaiz, c'mon, that's not my name
"
RE: About "surnames" - Kellach Woods - 07-08-2015
It's interesting because while it was done due to limitations in the script, it adds a bit of a lore pocket in that Ishgardians aren't really aware of how to deal with Miqo'te nomenclature.