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+--- Thread: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism (/showthread.php?tid=12791)
Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Seriphyn - 08-01-2015
Wanted to highlight a post from another thread...
Here on the Internet, we're a pretty liberal bunch, which is great. But the world of Eorzea is different. It's been made clear that there are several aspects we do not share with Eorzea. One example is the treatment of mixed race people. They suffer prejudice, yet not many people will roleplay this, despite the backing for such an approach in the MSQ.
I can understand people irk away from conflict, but I encourage confidence in being able to dive into the mindset of someone different from your own, and go for it! For example, in real life, I am mixed race of two immigrants from completely separate countries. I believe we should screw as many people from as many different countries as possible to practically erase national borders.
But Kale is different. He is from Eorzea where there are five distinct races which take pride in their identity and culture. To him, it's very simple, and completely justified in his mind; if everyone mixed with other races, there would no longer be Highlanders, Elezens, and so on. History and tradition is important to him! You are spitting on it by eroding the fabric of your race by settling down with another. It's strongly hinted at that this is the Eorzean mindset. Preserve the culture and identity of each race by sticking to your own!
We also have the Au Ra arrival...given how Gridania mostly rejected the Ala Mhigans (who are fellow Eorzeans) and sometimes Ul'dahns have trouble with Highlanders who haven't integrated, imagine how Eorzeans would react to Au Ra! Perhaps terribly! Go back to Othard, we Eorzeans have our own problems! And so on. In any story, be it a video game, movie, or book, there needs to be conflict to drive the plot forward. Same here!
If people are apprehensive about upsetting others OOC (which I understand, I am a puppy with conflict), I recommend a tactic of just putting more information into your emotes. For example, rather than...
Kale Aideron growled, "Ploughin' Au Ra, piss off!"
Just add something very simple that demonstrates to the other player that you as a roleplayer are fully cognizant of the fact your character is being a douche!
Kale Aideron growled, "Ploughin' Au Ra, piss off!". By his agitated body language, it was clear he did not like the presence of enigmatic foreigners in general.
By all means, however, go ahead and roleplay an attitude that embraces progressive concepts like mixed race relationships. But if I was roleplaying it, I'd fully recognize it was an alien concept to Eorzeans; I wish more RPers would see it that way, too!
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Oli! - 08-01-2015
As a counterpoint, I would say that for the most part, adventurers (otherwise known as we, the players) are known for their worldly and against-the-grain views, which might include not acting like that.
We're a small portion of a worldly population, doing our own thing. So it's not wholly unrealistic for people to not play this up in RP.
Also, though I have no particular political allegiance of my own, the implication that being conservative (especially 'traditional' conservatism, which is something entirely different) equates to being racist is unfortunate and probably demeaning.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Blue - 08-01-2015
This goes back to the thread I made short before HW's access, where I was bringing up the issue of the "Au Ra invasion". I encouraged people to try and delve into the conflicting reactions that often follow the arrival of many immigrants in your home country. Fear of the different, fear of seeing your job stolen by needy immigrants, of the raise of criminality (because if immigrants are not given enough resources to survive in the new country, criminality is their only option to keep on living), the fear of new traditions and habits.
For example, I RPd Jet'a being highly xenophobic of them (he is to all races really, but even more to non-Eorzean). Who's to say that they are not beastmen? Who's to say they will not cry for their heretical gods (which are NOT the Twelve, despite what the Character Creator enforces with the Guardian selection) and summon forth a Primal to claim what Eorzea won't give them freely? And so on.
When I made a Duskwight back at launch I was excited about the lore saying that this clan was discriminated by the rest of Gridania, and the Lancer storyline proved that, yet I never received any form of scorn or negativity from other roleplayers, and that depressed me a little. I have made Au Ras now hoping that maybe I'd see some of that, but so far no bite >.<....!
(08-01-2015, 05:34 AM)Oli! Wrote: Also, though I have no particular political allegiance of my own, the implication that being conservative (especially 'traditional' conservatism, which is something entirely different) equates to being racist is unfortunate and probably demeaning.
I think what he was referring to was the main meaning of "conservatism". It derives from the latin "conservare" = save, preserve some thing to its original form, do not allow changes (the same can be found in the etimology of "tradition"). This implies that anything "different" is seen as negative for conservation, such as a new, different race, or simply someone who looks or acts differently from what we are used to. Hence why most of xenophobic-oriented parties will be found in the conservationist branch of a country's politics.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Oli! - 08-01-2015
(08-01-2015, 06:19 AM)Blue Wrote: I think what he was referring to was the main meaning of "conservatism". It derives from the latin "conservare" = save, preserve some thing to its original form, do not allow changes (the same can be found in the etimology of "tradition"). This implies that anything "different" is seen as negative for conservation, such as a new, different race, or simply someone who looks or acts differently from what we are used to. Hence why most of xenophobic-oriented parties will be found in the conservationist branch of a country's politics.
Etymology does not imply meaning, it is used as a basis to explain meaning. The meaning of conservatism refers to either the stated dislike of the change of the current, or a range of political philosophies. Note that "Traditional" does not always cross with "accepted." In addition, "Traditional Conservatism," as stated in the thread title, is an even more specific form of this second meaning.
But we digress.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - K'nahli - 08-01-2015
If people want to have a safe roleplay experience free of conflict, encounters and themes which they are uncomfortable with, then I really don't think they should be engaging in public RP while utilizing details that would otherwise be prone to earning the wrong type of attention like this one.
So with that point, I would highly encourage conflict of all kinds - lore-based conflict most of all. It makes for great story telling and provides us with a greater variety of characters.
We need bad apples! We need grey characters! We need those good samaritans that unexpectedly have those unusually bad characteristics to break up their good nature! They're all kinds of good. We need all kinds of characters!
Edit:
And after actually reading the posts this time, I'd request that people please avoid bringing real-world political commentary into this topic as is likely to occur. I realise at times it's unavoidable and is relevant to the in-game point that one wishes to make, but just an early note to please tread carefully with it.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Gharen - 08-01-2015
(08-01-2015, 03:51 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: Wanted to highlight a post from another thread...
Here on the Internet, we're a pretty liberal bunch, which is great. History never advanced at the hands of conservatives, after all.
First of all, speak for yourself, and second you might want to study your history some more it's lacking and shows. The gist of what you're telling us all, is to be more conservative, and therefore racist. Is that what I'm seeing?Â
Because if it is it sounds incredibly ignorant not to mention insulting. Not all of the internet, and I can guarantee not all of the RPC are liberal, and you're making large assumptions that everyone will agree with you.
Gridanians are xenophobic by nature, they were entrusted with the privilege of living in the shroud by the elementals. The Ala Mhigans? Turned away probably because of lingering animosity from the Autumn war, Ul'dah? More filthy poor and troublemakers. Ishgard? Closed off and ruled by an iron fisted and corrupt theocracy akin to the middle ages Vatican.
Adventurers are not all from Eorzea and the ones that are will be well travelled and have seen more than your typical civilian and likely more accepting as a whole.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Nero - 08-01-2015
Joining K'nahli above: keep the socio-political commentary out or this thread will get nuked and nuked fast.
(08-01-2015, 06:19 AM)Blue Wrote: I encouraged people to try and delve into the conflicting reactions that often follow the arrival of many immigrants in your home country. Fear of the different, fear of seeing your job stolen by needy immigrants, of the raise of criminality (because if immigrants are not given enough resources to survive in the new country, criminality is their only option to keep on living), the fear of new traditions and habits.
It's worth noting that Eorzea's already experienced something like this in the form of Ala Mhigan refugees swarming to Ul'dah, and the Syndicate thus kicking most of them out into Stonesthrow or what have you. Limsans and Gridanians wouldn't have as much experience in that...well, experience, but that theme as a whole isn't foreign to Eorzea.
(08-01-2015, 03:51 AM)Seriphyn Wrote: But if I was roleplaying it, I'd fully recognize it was an alien concept to Eorzeans; I wish more RPers would see it that way, too!
I don't particularly agree with your assumption that a region that is historically and culturally known to be a large melting pot of various races and cultures is more inclined towards cultural conservatism. That would be like saying that a region of traditional Amish are okay with smart phones.
If anything, I would argue that given the aforementioned melting pot history and most Eorzean societies involving multiple races, the attitude of maintaining rigid cultural identity and a lack of flexibility would be seen as more alien by most common Eorzeans, barring exceptions like Ishgard--which has a culturally homogeneous population in the form of the vast majority of Hyur and Elezen identifying with traditional Ishgardian values--and Gridania being rather intolerant of Duskwights and Keepers.
And I'm not particularly sure what you are trying to achieve with your thread title anyway, for there are plenty of player characters that adhere to key principles of traditional conservatism quite comfortably while avoiding the racism or insistence on "keeping to one's own kind". What you're looking for is cultural conservatism, which would be....rather wildly out of place given the aforementioned melting pot history.
Many characters already believe in patriotism and regionalism (joining their city-state's grand company and by extension, the Eorzean Alliance, can't be defined as anything except loyal patriotism (unless you're in the Immortal Flames where it is plausible and accepted for characters to be motivated by self-interest), separation of the classes (Ishgard and Ul'dah), the idea of natural law (pretty much any religious character would adhere at least somewhat to the idea), and respect for traditions and cultural customs. Ul'dah has its eternal class warfare and Gridania has rigid adherence to the tenets of the Elementals, and all three city states believe deeply in the identity and maintenance of their regional community.
So you're either looking for the wrong thing or you can't seem to find something that's really quite common.
TL;DR: Cultural conservatism in Eorzea is the exception, not the rule, unless you're from Gridania or Ishgard.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Blue - 08-01-2015
(08-01-2015, 10:08 AM)Nero Wrote: TL;DR: Cultural conservatism in Eorzea is the exception, not the rule, unless you're from Gridania or Ishgard.
Let's not forget tribes too. It took a lot of drake blood and all kinds of favors to get the U tribe to tell me where to find a damn sandworm, and even now when I go back to them they treat me like crap
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Warren Castille - 08-01-2015
I don't think I'd ever feel comfortable playing a prejudiced person to that degree, even if the world lore "supported" it. It could make for interesting RP, sure, but that's not my definition of fun collaboration. "Today we're going to hunt for lone Au Ra to bring to mob justice! Don't worry, we won't ACTUALLY kill them!"
If you want to play an anti-something faction that's cool, but most folks don't want the hassle from what I've found.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Seriphyn - 08-01-2015
My intention was not to create an etymological discussion of 'liberal' vs 'conservative', but if folks want to pick that apart that's fine. I removed the unintentional jab there.
The point is playing someone who is not open-minded to change and new experiences. Who see Au Ra and rather act like it's an absolutely normal thing to see a race foreign to Eorzea, react the same way a European would in meeting a Chinese man back in the 15th century.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Virella - 08-01-2015
As an Ishgardian roleplayer, I really feel the urge to chip in this conversation; sadly enough a lot of Ishgardian roleplayers, not all mind you, go the Haurchefant route, and seem to forget that this type of character at the moment seems to be very rare.
Give a look around you in Ishgard and Coerthas, mostly of the time your character gets spat upon. Heck certain types of people (magic users, races) have been straight out executed for heresy in Ishgard for being themselves, and not doing something wrong at all.
Sadly enough people wish to be friend with everyone on an OOC level, and really confuse that your characters hatred towards x IC is just that; and completely shy away from roleplaying a racist character. Heck, I even had angry tumblr post about me due to Virella being an obnoxious shit to said person's char.
I can very much see why people shy away from it, due to so many, even if they claim they do not, get offended about it on an OOC level. It is such a damn shame it has to be that way though.
Meanwhile I found that if you pull the racist card off well enough, you can have so many interesting conversation due to it! Heck, Autumn War is always a lovely thing Virella starts bragging around when Ala Mhigan folks are there. She makes stupid comments about Miqo'te and the dancing girls she seen in Ul'dah, questions how Roegadyns do not walk into things constantly, complain about tripping over Lalas. She makes snide comments to Ala Mhigans in the terms of "Do you not have a city to be taken from you?" and the Domans get the same treatment. Highlanders often get the savage, barbarian insults thrown at them, Au Ra get the whole "Not sure if you are heresy or not" treatment ect.
People start to argue with you, some will try to defend their ways, some will get right out angry, others will get upset, some will just laugh it off, just to name a few possibilities. There are so many possibilities for roleplay due to making these comments. Heck, it doesn't even need to be full on insulting, but a subtle stab, or even an accidental slip of words, is often enough to fan the fires. Having an ignorant character can be tons of fun around the right crowd.
And with Ishgardians you get the whole heresy claims as well. What is something what can possibly have massive consequences for the other party's char. I find that OOC community is a thing what needs to take place in that case though.
In any case, I wish there were more people who roleplayed the whole race/nation pride/racism more, but I can fully understand if people would not in certain cases. Especially due to people forgetting that Eorzea is racist as fugde, and the IC=/=OOC confusion. Roleplay as you want, but respect both type of roleplayers! Bow out of need be.
Welp this ended up being a bit longer then I've intended.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Unnamed Mercenary - 08-01-2015
But....it's really not like a European seeing a Chinese man in the 15th century. The five races have literally been living on that continent for THOUSANDS of years together. Sure, getiting along is perhaps a bit more of a recent development, but if anything, the racial boundaries are more like to be akin to what SE's said at conventions.
"Why couldn't you have fallen in love with a nice Elezen man?" -A Wildwood father to his daughter in love with a Hyur.
I anything, there's more a mentality to "stick to one's own kind", but that doesn't exactly imply there needs to be racial tension beyond it. We see more of it with the idea of Midlanders joking that Highlanders must have Roegadyn blood in them, because of their larger size and names.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Alderique - 08-01-2015
The real world is full of racism, xenophobia, and all sorts of prejudice already. Many people have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. I would really hate to be someone who has to deal with this on a regular basis, only to log on and have characters treat you poorly because of your character's citizenship or race.
Yes, it's just playing pretend, but I believe your roleplay experiences get to you somewhere in your subconscious.
It's fine if other people do it, and I wouldn't scold anyone for doing it. It's built into the lore and in most games, anyway. I find it tiring after a while, and just prefer to move on to other themes that I'm more interested in, rather than emulating something I would prefer didn't exist.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Virella - 08-01-2015
(08-01-2015, 01:56 PM)tortles Wrote: The real world is full of racism, xenophobia, and all sorts of prejudice already. Many people have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. I would really hate to be someone who has to deal with this on a regular basis, only to log on and have characters treat you poorly because of your character's citizenship or race.It may just be me, but I find that these type of posts indicate what I was pointing out before; the good old IC is not OOC confusion.
Yes, it's just playing pretend, but I believe your roleplay experiences get to you somewhere in your subconscious.
I ask you, if you do not feel comfortable with these themes in the setting, why does one roleplay in FFXIV and not jump to another game, setting or anything, where these topics do not come up?
It just seems strange to me to stay willingly in a setting if you can not set apart IC and OOC if these topics get onto your nerves.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Alderique - 08-01-2015
(08-01-2015, 02:05 PM)Virella Douront Wrote:(08-01-2015, 01:56 PM)tortles Wrote: The real world is full of racism, xenophobia, and all sorts of prejudice already. Many people have to deal with it on a day-to-day basis. I would really hate to be someone who has to deal with this on a regular basis, only to log on and have characters treat you poorly because of your character's citizenship or race.It may just be me, but I find that these type of posts indicate what I was pointing out before; the good old IC is not OOC confusion.
Yes, it's just playing pretend, but I believe your roleplay experiences get to you somewhere in your subconscious.
I ask you, if you do not feel comfortable with these themes in the setting, why does one roleplay in FFXIV and not jump to another game, setting or anything, where these topics do not come up?
It just seems strange to me to stay willingly in a setting if you can not set apart IC and OOC if these topics get onto your nerves.
I've seen this kind of prejudice in most MMOs I've played, and it's pretty unavoidable. If it's how others want to play, I can't tell them not to, and I wouldn't stop roleplaying with someone if their character had some sort of prejudice. I choose not to do it.