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+--- Thread: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? (/showthread.php?tid=12963)
How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - LadyRochester - 08-12-2015
So I was talking to a friend recently, and the topic of OP characters popped up. Being extremely paranoid, I asked him of he thought my character was OP... He told me my character wasn't OP, but completely underpowered and crippled. I don't necessarily believe this, but I suppose I felt a little, I don't know, insulted?
My character suffers from a genetic condition that makes her extremely sensitive and vulnerable to aether, to the point any sort of slight aetherial imbalance can leave her in a rather fragile state. This is the reason she usually avoids fighting or straining herself too much and areas overridden with aether that could potentially harm her (Like Mor Dhona). She has been K.O. multiple times due to this sensitivity. The fact she is fascinated by magic only worsens it, as it deteriorates her health over time. I liked giving her a weakness that would define her character, but...
TL;DR: Is this truly annoying to deal with? I Know OP can be horrid to deal with, but what about the other side of the spectrum? Is an underpowered character annoying? I'd guess most people don't want to put up with either extreme, what do you think?
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Divisor - 08-12-2015
I don't know that I'd call underpowered characters annoying, especially not in the way overpowered characters are, but if you're worried that your character is leaning on one side of the spectrum, it's a pretty easy fix: give them a strength and a weakness. Keep them balanced. Sasha has a pretty significant aversion to aether—that's obviously a weakness—but what is she good at? What strengths does she have that may put her above others? It doesn't have to be something combat-oriented. She could have a silver tongue, she could be quick on her feet, she could have a high tolerance for physical pain as opposed to magical.
I think if you have a character that could be classified as "underpowered" it'd be because that character doesn't have any strengths to speak of. Just like an overpowered character has no weaknesses to speak of. If your character is one of the two, give them some traits or skills that pull them back in the other direction.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - LadyRochester - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 07:57 AM)Divisor Wrote: I don't know that I'd call underpowered characters annoying, especially not in the way overpowered characters are, but if you're worried that your character is leaning on one side of the spectrum, it's a pretty easy fix: give them a strength and a weakness. Keep them balanced. Sasha has a pretty significant aversion to aether—that's obviously a weakness—but what is she good at? What strengths does she have that may put her above others? It doesn't have to be something combat-oriented. She could have a silver tongue, she could be quick on her feet, she could have a high tolerance for physical pain as opposed to magical.
I think if you have a character that could be classified as "underpowered" it'd be because that character doesn't have any strengths to speak of. Just like an overpowered character has no weaknesses to speak of. If your character is one of the two, give them some traits or skills that pull them back in the other direction.
Oh, she has plenty of strengths, despite her condition, she is very magically talented and quick-witted. Personality wise, she is very balanced, with both strenghts and weaknesses, hence why his comment made me raise a brow. I don't intend to change her, Â but I just want to know if this is something very annoying for others. Personally, I feel this wealness has led to plentiful of interesting rp, but I just want to make sure I'm not brealing any rules here.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Gegenji - 08-12-2015
I really don't think there's a single, definite answer on the matter. Each roleplayer has their own preferences on the style of RP that they enjoy, up to and including the average "power level" of the characters they interact with. To a person playing a more gritty angle - perhaps a struggling Thaumaturge pouring over tomes just to learn how to throw basic fire and ice spells, or even just someone who believes that someone can't learn two or more "conflicting" styles of magic (or any types of magic not openly stated in lore) - Sasha could be considered "overpowered." Conversely, those that play up the high fantasy side of the game and have more fantastical characters - those who have faced down Primals or have a laundry list of skill sets, for example - might see her as more on par or even underpowered.
Not to mention, how it is handled and displayed will also either aid or hinder the OP/UP view of the character. Emphasis on the strengths versus the weaknesses in RP, the descriptions of how the characters act in conflict, and even just general opinion of the masses based on hearsay of the character/player could add to that. Focusing on her stores of arcane knowledge and her unique powers could give the "feeling" of being OP, heavy emphasis on her genetic condition can give the opposite.
In my own, personal opinion based on the levels I've dealt with? I feel she's about par - she has traits that make her unique and provide her with skills to utilize both in and out of combat to a solid degree, but she also has defining "drawbacks" not only in her genetic condition but also how she interacts with others in certain situations. The entire package sort of... balances out, to me. Then again, I try to give any type of character a shot, so I'd be harder pressed to define an OP character that wasn't openly just a list of negative attributes.
... And I have characters like Judge and Gogon in my stable, as it were, so I feel I can't be too nitpicky about OP traits. Glass houses and stones and whatnot. And even then, they also set up a good example of "it depends on the other character." Even "depowered" as Gogon was after his stint as an event Final Boss, he's pretty powerful compared to some and not so much compared to others.
tl;dr: It's all relative, really.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Aaron - 08-12-2015
Overpowered and underpowered are terms that in themselves are subjective based on multiple factors.
However it can generally be seen as  having tangible parameters based on what you're talking about and even be accepted as a fact sometimes (I.E. a PC killing Bahamas with a flicks da wrist is OP, however if you did a dbz crossover Goku for example doing that would be pretty normal)
In short if your characters underpowered I seriously doubt it upsets anyone. As you pointed out it's not as if you go flaunting off your character going LOOK IM SO STRONG.
Imo there's only need to limit how overpowered you are than underpowered. Because the former is simply far more troublesome to deal with.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Nebbs - 08-12-2015
I always try to keep in mind to play the character and not the feature, be they under or overpowered. So you can play what you want but make it an interesting personality.
Always falling over dizzy is just as annoying as never loosing.
My pet hates are the blind, deaf or dumb character that essentially are defined by their disability. Yet some of the best RP I have had was with a blind char that was a rich interactive sort.Â
I suppose you should aim to add to the RP and not try to drag it down to overcoming the problems you are imposing on your char and thereby on others.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Nero - 08-12-2015
It depends almost entirely on the context, and how the player handles their character.
"Overpowered" and "underpowered" pretty much boil down to the same thing; people often write the traits first, and the character second. Generally speaking, overpowered characters aren't annoying because of the traits themselves (though in some cases it certainly doesn't help). An overpowered character isn't necessarily annoying to a lot of people because they turn into Mega Odin and Shin-Zantetsuken things willy nilly, but because their traits are more or less written in a way that says "Please respect and admire my character for having this ability". It's essentially a plea for others to find the character interesting without actually engaging in the meaningful interactions that, well, make the character interesting.
Underpowered characters are certainly capable of falling into the same trap of being, intentionally or inadvertently, written as "unique character traits" that just happens to have a character attached to it as opposed to a character that just so happens to have some unique traits. It's the difference between designing the chassis before the engine, or vice versa, the engine being the character's personality that drives things forward and the chassis being the "unique" traits or abilities that decorate it. And yes, some people consider it pretty important to have a nice looking chassis, but it's not the pretty chassis that determines whether or not you can travel in the first place.
A character's weakness can be played in such a way that is identical to the overpowered character: "Please notice and worry over my character for having this weakness". Underpowered characters can be just as irritating to deal with as overpowered characters.
So how do you avoid this? That can be a difficult question to answer, but the short answer is "Don't force anything."
As I'm ever so fond of saying, it depends on the context. When introducing your character to other characters, some people are attracted to the pretty chassis and want to interact with that and its implications. Some people don't care about the aesthetics and only want to see how your engine drives things forward.
There are some fairly safe things to use. When introducing your character, don't make overt attempts to make their traits relevant. Give it a sentence or two. Less than a paragraph. And if the traits aren't relevant, then don't crowbar them in or try to draw attention to them. Let your engine do the driving--the character--and if other characters on their own notice the pretty chassis--the unique traits--then great, you can roll with it. And don't get bent out of shape if characters don't immediately acknowledge the pretty chassis you put so much work into.
Let their interest in your character and their unique traits grow naturally.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - LadyRochester - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 09:08 AM)Nero Wrote: There are some fairly safe things to use. When introducing your character, don't make overt attempts to make their traits relevant. Give it a sentence or two. Less than a paragraph. And if the traits aren't relevant, then don't crowbar them in or try to draw attention to them. Let your engine do the driving--the character--and if other characters on their own notice the pretty chassis--the unique traits--then great, you can roll with it. And don't get bent out of shape if characters don't immediately acknowledge the pretty chassis you put so much work into.
Let their interest in your character and their unique traits grow naturally.
I've been careful to keep her weaknesses from surfacing early in the RP with others, they only do so when the time is 'right' (As in, it would make sense.) While her weakness is something that has shaped a great part of her personality, I don't want it to be the trait that defines her. Otherwise it feels too forced and attention-seeking.Â
That, and it doesn't make sense for a character to just reveal their weaknesses from the get-go, unless they are horribly insane, naive, and/or stupid.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - -no longer matters- - 08-12-2015
I consider War to be pretty powerful, but no matter how powerful she is.. The /random roll is more powerful, and no matter what my head cannon says should happen that /random roll is the final word.Â
When dueling someone I always tone her down, because most likely it's just a duel and she's not trying to actually hurt them just get them to yield.
In personal fan fic I crank her power meter up to like over 9000, but then I'm the only one affected by those. In game RP I dail her back down to powerful but manageable.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Hammersmith - 08-12-2015
Over, for me, means too much. Â It means intrusive. Â It means disruptive (Usually to other people's narritives). Â It means whatever the power is, is too much and not well managed and more often than not not needed for whatever situation it's in play as. Â It's there to "Make me look good" and not "because it's part of a larger story that meshes with other people"
It's the mage who never takes a hit because they have a total protection spell. Â It's the ninja who can dodge everything and then kill you because they're a ninja. Â It's the rich guy who has infinite money in any RP and just solves all the problems because scarcity, need, want, and struggle are something they can just Solve Immediately.
Overpowered people don't struggle, and don't work for the sake of a story. Â They just wield and Want to Win.
Underpowered? Â This is hard to come by. Â If your entire concept is defined by your ability to insta-cast "I win at everything" you're overpowered. Â Underpowered isn't really a thing. Â Chars are -easily- defined by things other than Power, so why bother with this? Â Normal people with no "power" other than muscle and brains and quick thinking are -great-, and plentiful, and I like playing with them.
You CAN find people who play victim complexes, perpetual sickly types who always need help and attention, but this is a player failing. Â It's an person who needs to be defined by the attention given. It's, again, intrusive, demanding, and has nothing to do with a story and everything to do with LOOK AT ME WHY IS THIS NOT ABOUT ME. It's the player who makes a char's 'weakness' show up as soon as people aren't centering a conversation around them. It's the player who's char has an emotional collapse when an RP isn't going the direction THEY want.
It's an abusive mirror to Overpowered but, since it's not a power thing, it's instead an emotionally manipulative and unimaginative twerp instead of a god modder.
So. Â Overpowered is easy to find.
Underpowered isn't really a thing (though bad concepts that revolve around playing weaknesses incorrectly are ALSO EASY to find)
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Caspar - 08-12-2015
The way I see it, rather than thinking about whether it is enough strength or too much strength, I would argue it is more important to think about what purpose the strength or weakness serves in accentuating the story you want to tell.
Think about the kind of rp you want to do. What purpose does Sasha's weakness have in your rp? The struggle to overcome her aether sensitivity is obviously already very important to her, but if she finds herself helpless often, that's a very unpleasant feeling in such a dangerous world; maybe she tries to find other avenues of strength to protect herself. Or perhaps instead, it drives her to perform even more dangerous research. Perhaps in a place where most people can manipulate aether freely, it leads to a fatalistic attitude where she feels she'll never accomplish anything she desires in her research due to her own physical limitations. What matters most is how your character's power plays into what kind of story you are writing; if the power serves a narrative purpose, it is almost always accepted, I feel.
It is when people make their characters strong without good reason and demand respect because they want to be the strongest OOC that people grow resentful. Weakness too; your character is weak because it serves narrative purpose, but people put the noncom on a pedestal here, and I'd argue that an uneducated, lowly peasant that lacks a distinctive enough personality or any positive traits whatsoever for fear of being overpowered isn't much fun to play with. Even a pacifistic or weak character can have something to contribute, but being too weak your rp almost as much as being overly strong. Instead of being out of place in peaceful scenes, you're out of place in combat rp. When you want to get involved with dangerous scenarios, it becomes hard to explain why anyone would want you around. But you actually do something with your character's weakness, so that's not a problem necessarily. Sasha is smart, and if she finds other avenues to contribute, she has a place in more violent rp too. Of course, her aether problem is a weakness, but I think that there is enough of a hook for you to get involved in those scenes without every character struggling to find an IC reason to include yours.
It's sort of the reason why I tend to be attracted to making strong characters. Most rp characters I've made over the years have been pretty powerful in the context of their setting, but I wanted this not because they would be stronger than the other characters, but because I was interested in how it built their character, or how their character interacted with it. It's like X-Men... I feel a bit embarrassed for making that comparison, but it's the first thing to come to mind. (I even was in an X-Men rp...) The characters have a framework as a person that makes them seem believable. However, it's the way their personality and background interact with their exceptional strength that really draw readers to them.
Nero made a thread where you describe a character without talking about their background or powers a while back, and that made me interested. I liked this thread because it was an interesting writing challenge, yet I felt if taken the wrong way, it also encouraged a disconnect between strength and character, that their power or unique traits are trivialized. Obviously I don't think that's what Nero intended, but I feel like being strong has a major effect on a lot of character's personalities, so I'd argue a lot of people lose out doing this. Disconnect between strength and character leads to the "perception" of being overpowered, which is the real root of why people fear OP characters in rp. It feels like they're just arbitrarily powerful, and that that ability to destroy others has no significance in their life. People can respect an rp character who is strong or weak with reason, rather than just a tool of convenience for the player behind them, or a tool of inconvenience for the players in front of them.
Taking things back to X-Men, Cyclops is often regarded by fans as a jerk with a rod stuck up his ass, but I think he's one of the most seamless integrations of power and personality in the series. Writers who handle him well show him as a man who cannot control his power, so he micromanages every aspect of his life to compensate, making him stressful to be friends with, and straining his intimacy with his loved ones. There is a constant tension between Cyclops, who needs to hold back, and the other mutants, who need to exert themselves to do half of what he's capable of. He gets selected to be somewhat of a protege by Professor X, but feels constant self-doubt because of his "defect" in being unable to control his optic blast. Yet it's never because Cyclops can laser anything into dust that he's made leader; it's the symptom of his power, that micromanaging, that got him the position in the first place. I'd argue that using powers as a hook can make your character grab someone, and letting them see the person for who they are later leads to a more nuanced view of their outward strength. But again, it depends on the kind of story you want to write. Maybe the aetheric problem isn't that heavily weighted in your writing. In such cases, sure, I figure you can write your character compellingly even without using that weakness as a plot element, but the way I see it, you want to exploit it for its potential narrative draw.
Likewise, I made Virara strong *because* she needs to fail and suffer a crisis of confidence. She needs to be powerful because I want to put her in situations where that strength isn't necessarily useful, or is dwarfed by the threat she faces. There needs to be an emotional disconnect between her strength and her appearance; the unbelievability of it is unsettling and can drive others away. Nobody is surprised when a roegdyn or highlander male is a tough warrior. Power isolates. Strength isn't always useful. What did you give up to study your martial skill so obsessively? Sometimes you have to sacrifice reason for the power you need to accomplish your goals. These are all themes I have a habit of returning to, because I find a lot of people find them interesting, and I do too. Without a character's strength being written heavily into the narrative you approach, these ideas lack punch.
I think a lot of the same ideas can be applied to weaknesses as well. If I wanted to focus on Virara's social awkwardness, the fish out of water thing, or her lack of conventional wisdom, I could do so, but just like with the strength, if I did not supply a narrative vehicle to explain why she knows nothing that has emotional resonance, she becomes just another "immigrant" character who has to learn the same tired Eorzean traditions you saw in the Ninja questline. (It was actually brought up on my first day of rp.) Instead, I made her ignorant because being trained to fight was what sculpted her identity as a person. It literally is indistinguishable from personhood for her. And that sense of self was IMMEDIATELY challenged, just as I wanted it to be. Maybe the issue with character strength isn't necessarily your own, but how others react to it.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Asmodean - 08-12-2015
Its hard to really come across a truly underpowered character mainly due to the fact not everyone plays a fighter or magic user. Just because someone plays soloy as crafter something like that, doesn't mean they are underpowered, just different. Not everyone in the world is the same and so RP character shouldn't either. So long as you are enjoying your character, whether or not they are UP, is all that should really matter.
....And reading hammer post makes me a bit worried about my own characters weakness... >.> <.< >.>;;; I really hope it doesn't come off as wanting attention.
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - Hammersmith - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 10:59 AM)Asmodean Wrote: Its hard to really come across a truly underpowered character mainly due to the fact not everyone plays a fighter or magic user. Just because someone plays soloy as crafter something like that, doesn't mean they are underpowered, just different. Not everyone in the world is the same and so RP character shouldn't either. So long as you are enjoying your character, whether or not they are UP, is all that should really matter.
....And reading hammer post makes me a bit worried about my own characters weakness... >.> <.< >.>;;; I really hope it doesn't come off as wanting attention.
Don't Usurp Other People's Play With What You Want Right Now and you're fine.
Both Over and Underpowered for me are symptoms of people Wanting it to Be All About Them. Â If you're not doing that? You're fine!
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - -no longer matters- - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 11:03 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:Well that makes me feel better, because War is definitely the side character to almost everyone else for the most part atm. (Other than this weapon story which is such a small side story.) which is how I like it.(08-12-2015, 10:59 AM)Asmodean Wrote: Its hard to really come across a truly underpowered character mainly due to the fact not everyone plays a fighter or magic user. Just because someone plays soloy as crafter something like that, doesn't mean they are underpowered, just different. Not everyone in the world is the same and so RP character shouldn't either. So long as you are enjoying your character, whether or not they are UP, is all that should really matter.
....And reading hammer post makes me a bit worried about my own characters weakness... >.> <.< >.>;;; I really hope it doesn't come off as wanting attention.
Don't Usurp Other People's Play With What You Want Right Now and you're fine.
Both Over and Underpowered for me are symptoms of people Wanting it to Be All About Them. Â If you're not doing that? You're fine!
RE: How to find the balance between overpowered and underpowered? - LadyRochester - 08-12-2015
(08-12-2015, 11:03 AM)Hammersmith Wrote:(08-12-2015, 10:59 AM)Asmodean Wrote: Its hard to really come across a truly underpowered character mainly due to the fact not everyone plays a fighter or magic user. Just because someone plays soloy as crafter something like that, doesn't mean they are underpowered, just different. Not everyone in the world is the same and so RP character shouldn't either. So long as you are enjoying your character, whether or not they are UP, is all that should really matter.
....And reading hammer post makes me a bit worried about my own characters weakness... >.> <.< >.>;;; I really hope it doesn't come off as wanting attention.
Don't Usurp Other People's Play With What You Want Right Now and you're fine.
Both Over and Underpowered for me are symptoms of people Wanting it to Be All About Them. Â If you're not doing that? You're fine!
I don't like to interrupt people's rp with me with her condition, only moment it acts up is if makes sense for it to happen or she does something very stupid (luckily, this is unusual.)
Though in my latest rp my rng was NOT helping my character AT ALL.
