Dragons and Woodsin - Printable Version

Dragons and Woodsin - Printable Version

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Dragons and Woodsin - V'aleera - 10-09-2015

Do dragons accrue Woodsin? We know that on occasion dragons will flee to and be pursued into the Shroud, but I would like to know if there is any more specific lore surrounding interactions between dragons and the Shroud.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - Virella - 10-09-2015

Got no idea in truth, I imagine they are fine as long they do not go burning down the forest? As far as I know there has been no mention of the Shroud turning against dragons right?

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - Masaki Moui - 10-09-2015

During some lore research for the Shroud in the past few months, I skimmed across a random forum comment somewhere (and can't find it again) about a wvyern once bound in the Central Shroud near Haukke Manor but -- huge huge but okay? -- I can't find a thing to confirm this anywhere. It's very likely some poster was misremembering something about wyverns and the upper level of Central Shroud or something. (But if any of you know what this is, please to tell us! It's an intriguing idea.) There is the Amberscale Rock up there which does have the shape of a dragon or something with wings and a draconic style of face. But so far the only lore I've found about the Amberscale Rock is that can remove almost any enchantment from an object including a golem's soulstone.

The only other interesting tidbit about anything serpentine that I recall off the top of my head is from Milith Ironheart's first Sightseeing log in which you discover:

Quote:"The great stone that adorns the entrance to Stillglade Fane is none other than the Skyserpent's Egg, cast down from the Heavens by Nophica the Matron so long ago. And those mammoth tree trunks--remnants, no doubt, of a primeval forest. Whence did they come? Why do the two great arbors grow as one?" - Milith Ironheart

I have theories, but nothing concrete, as to what the Skyserpent's Egg is/was. If you go to Stillglade Fane, especially at night when it glows, you can see the Egg right over the entrance to the tunnels.

Other than this, I've heard that Woodsin is what visitors or inhabitants accumulate when they live in a way that defies the will of the elementals. It was what made it difficult to enter or return to the Shroud if you'd lived differently than the elementals wanted and they had rituals to cleanse it.

So I suppose it would depend upon whether or not a dragon was living in accord with the Pact that the Elementals made with Gridanians (ecological mindfulness really). Did this dragon live in a similar way? If not, they might have accrued Woodsin. I'd think it applies to any sentient race entering the Shroud. I have more I could say here but I gotta go read the spoilers rules to make sure I don't make an oops. And I'd really like to hear what anyone else has to add as well.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - LiadansWhisper - 10-10-2015

It's possible that, like Duskwights and the Keeper Miqo'te in South Shroud, the Elementals don't hold Dragons to account under the Pact of Gelmorra. Â It's also possible that dragons are smarter than anyone realizes, and they just don't accrue woodsin because they don't piss the Elementals off, or that they are able to intuitively understand the Elementals themselves.

I'm not sure how much lore/how many examples we have covering this particular subject.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - Sounsyy - 10-10-2015

(10-09-2015, 09:25 PM)Valeera Wrote: Do dragons accrue Woodsin? We know that on occasion dragons will flee to and be pursued into the Shroud, but I would like to know if there is any more specific lore surrounding interactions between dragons and the Shroud.

Good question! Unknown! Dragons sometimes, albeit rarely, enter the Twelveswood based on 1.0 lore, however, Ser Yuhelmeric mentions that the elementals do not suffer their presence!

Yuhelmeric Brillelame Wrote:He claims to have spied a dragon in the forest... though I grant such a report may owe more to wounds and weariness than fact. The elementals are not like to suffer such a creature in their midst! You may see him, and make what inquiries you will, should you so desire. Perhaps repeating his tale will remind the poor lad what a mummer's farce it all sounds.

So, I'm going to go with yes, sentient dragons can accrue woodsin, just like any other race or beast race. The Ixal were banished by the Elementals in the Year 1022. And the Sylphs were allowed into the Wood before the Elementals allowed the races of man.

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(10-09-2015, 11:19 PM)Masaki Moui Wrote: There is the Amberscale Rock up there which does have the shape of a dragon or something with wings and a draconic style of face. But so far the only lore I've found about the Amberscale Rock is that can remove almost any enchantment from an object including a golem's soulstone.

I'm going to spoiler my response, because there's a heck of a lore dump below.

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Amberscale Rock Lore and Theories

Newly Outfitted Knight Wrote:I know what the others are saying. Hells take them all! I am not mad with fever! It was a dragon I saw. As clearly as I see you before me now. Wh-What happened? The dragon... There was a dragonâ”€ Was I...mistaken? For an instant, the rock seemed so real, and the shadows in the forest... Perhaps my imagination got the better of me. Conjurer Morys... the one who tended my wounds. I-I wronged him. I accused the conjurers of concealing a dragon in the forest. Please, tell him I am sorry.

Fan Fest Wrote:Q: One that goes very far back and very few people may even know what Iâ€™m talking aboutâ€¦ but Amberscale Rock is still in the game. And not only does it look kinda like a dragonâ€¦ there was a story about a boy and a dragon and then we bumped into a boy that may have been that boy trying to return to Ishgard. Is Amberscale Rock the Dragon from The Boy and the Dragon Gay?

MCKF: It is not the dragon from The Boy and the Dragon Gay because youâ€™ll learn more about these kind of dragons in the coming patch, Dreams of Ice. We wonâ€™t touch on Amberscale Rock, but weâ€™ll touch on the other parts of the question.

For those of you who have no idea what he's talking about, or what the hell The Boy and the Dragon Gay is...

Penelope Wrote:Aye, I've heard the tale aforeâ”€that of the boy and the dragon. As I recall, the lad was snatched from the forest by bandits of the north before he was a man grown. Spirited him away to the mountains, they did. Yet dragons fly the northern skies, and the eyes of one such beast came to rest on our bandits and boy. It swooped down upon them from on high, wings beating and teeth gnashing.

Screams of terror and blinding dusts filled the air, and as the young lad's chocobo reared and took flight with fear, he was flung from its back, and tumbled from the narrow pass and down the mountainside. Yet the gods spared his life, and he awoke sometime later at the base of a great, rocky ledge, wounded and broken and unable to move. Hours passed, and before long the foul beasts what roam the crags caught scent of his blood and began to close in all around.

It was then, as the boy was making his peace with the Twelve, that another dragon, small and feeble, came upon him. Yet instead of tearing him flesh from limb, it charred and maimed and chased off the circling beasts, saving the boy's life. The tale ends with the dragon bearing the wounded boy on his back, and the two flying through the blue skies of the north together.

A beautiful enough story for an Ul'dahn audience. But milord would do well not to regale a soul with it around these parts. For it has been branded a heresy by the archbishop in Ishgard, and his Holiness has ears even in this very wood.

Penelope Wrote:Lower your voice! Aye, I've heard the tale of the Boy and the Dragon Gay, and more times than one. But the archbishop in Ishgard has declared it a heretic's tale. Best not to recount it here, so close to the mountains.

I've come to hear what less controversial tales there are to be heard in Grdiania, and once I have, I'll be off to Ishgard in search of the next. If the gods are good, we shall meet again, adventurer.

E-Sumi-Yan Wrote:Mayhap you are familiar with the tale of the Boy and the Dragon Gay? Hardly surprising. The archbishop declared it a heretic's tale, and with good cause. It is a corruption of an older legend in which a man partakes of dragon blood and, in so doing, becomes one himself.

Ingram Wrote:Ah, so it was the elementals of Amberscale Rock, was it? Then it seems you have learned of Brother Morys's secret. Yes, Brother Morys was indeed a wildling. Very few of the conjurers are privy to this. Those who do know have been forbidden to speak of it.

Once claimed by the wood, one undergoes certain... changes. Wildlings have great potential to become powerful, powerful conjurers. If knowledge of this fact were to become widespread, we fear many would allow themselves to be turned out of lust for power. But once claimed, wildlings can seldom be retrieved from the wood. And that is why you, too, must protect this secret, Sounsyy. Believe me, I would not ordinarily have asked you to bear such a burden. <sigh> If only I knew what the elementals were planning!

Now, you're probably wondering what in the Seven Hells Amberscale Rock has to do with the Boy and the Dragon Gay. Well, it has everything to do with this theory, which was ultimately proved false. However, that is the connection between the two that's referenced above in Fernehalwes's post.

NOW, moving on to a more relevant theory of Amberscale Rock!

In 1.0, there was a very distant, isolated area guarded by level 90 morbols and qiqirns known as the Ruins of Gelmorra. If you were able to survive the trek out there, you encountered this:
[Image: ffxiv1335588651.jpg]

They look like little tonberries, but they are not.

Quote:Q: Version 1.0, way back, the old Gelmorran ruins had these little statues made out of the same stuff as Amberscale Rock. What were those? They looked kinda like Tonberriesâ€¦

MCKF: They were not tonberries. Thatâ€™s all we can say.

But, what they are is Gelmorran, and made from the same stone as Amberscale, ergo, Amberscale Rock is Gelmorran in origin.

Which then makes this bit of fact an interesting conundrum...

Elemental Housekeeping Wrote:Of overground traces of Gelmorra, few remain to disturb the order of the forest, yet occasional ruins are still found that must needs be removed. What is under the forest floor may stay, but our laws decree that no stone of Gelmorra mar the home of the elementals.

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(10-09-2015, 11:19 PM)Masaki Moui Wrote: I have theories, but nothing concrete, as to what the Skyserpent's Egg is/was. If you go to Stillglade Fane, especially at night when it glows, you can see the Egg right over the entrance to the tunnels.

This is about the only lore on the Skyserpent Egg that I have in my notes:

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Skyserpent Egg and the Unholy Heir

Millith Ironheart Wrote:To our fortune, whithersoever we wander, Eorzea's beauty is but a stone's throw away. If I may quote from my journal...yes, this is the one. â€œAfore the Fane, beneath the two that are as one, Her divine cup runneth over with light aetherial. Such were the conjurer's words, and I would see as she saw.â€ I saw for myself before coming here, and I can assure you the conjurer spoke true. Indulge meâ”€go there and look out upon the beauty before you. I would hear your thoughts.

Welcome back, Sounsyy. I trust you were as moved by the sight as I was? The great stone that adorns the entrance to Stillglade Fane is none other than the Skyserpent's Egg, cast down from the heavens by Nophica the Matron so long ago. And those mammoth tree trunksâ”€remnants, no doubt, of a primeval forest. Whence did they come? Why do the two great arbors grow as one? This, I do not knowâ”€but what I do know is that the realm is replete with such beauty, if only we know where to look.

Khuja Zhwan Wrote:Beyond here lies the Stillglade Fane. It is sacred ground, marked by the Skyserpent's Egg, The stone cast to Eorzea from the heavens by Nophica the Matron.

Nuala Wrote:The Twelveswood is a vast forest set aside just for the elementals by the Matron, Nophica. It was here long before we came, and will remain long after we are gone. You are their guest, and may tread only where allowed. Adventurers are not permitted beyond the hunting grounds. See to it your feet do not stray.

That said, this isn't the only time we've seen Eorzeans refer to unknown geological formations as eggs...

Fernehalwes Wrote:In Thanalan, you have that massive rock in the middle of a depression called the Unholy Heir. The story behind that is that the rock appeared right after the Calamity, and the smallfolk see this big rock appear one day and the day before Bahamut flew over and destroyed everything. So the rumor started that this huge rock was actually an egg laid by Bahamut and now that Bahamut is gone, one day when the egg gets warm enough it will crack and Bahamut's son will come out and destroy the world again.

So if the Unholy Heir is Bahamut's egg(lol)? And the Skyserpent's Egg was supposedly cast into the Wood by Nophica... who do the Eorzeans think this Skyserpent is? That I don't know, but my best guess would be Midgardsormr, considering he's included in Eorzean creation myth and is kind of a sky serpent?

Erik Wrote:Oh, there are any number of legends and myths surrounding the place. I think the oldest and most widely known would have to be that of the dragon of the Falls. I do not claim to be a folklorist, but I can certainly provide the general tale.

There was the birth of Althyk, god of time among the Twelve, and in turn, His younger sister Nymeia, goddess of fate. And then there was water, and through it Silvertear Falls came to be at the center of all that was. Here was the source not only of water, but the fount of all magic as well. Now, when water came into being, so too did the great dragon Midgardsormr. Brother Time and Sister Fate, fearing the Falls might fall into the hands of evil, ordered Midgardsormr their protector and warden. Much later, with the arrival of man, would Midgardsormr be worshiped as the guardian deity of Silvertear Falls.

Have you been to Silvertear Falls, Sounsyy? Or are you as untraveled as you are unread? Have you gazed upon the enormous dragon corpse, frozen as a statue with wings outspread? If you have, you have gazed upon Midgardsormr. That tragedy is but ten years old. After invading my home of Ala Mhigo, the Garleans launched a fleet of airships led by the monstrosity Agrius. They flew for Silvertear Falls, knowing them to harbor the greatest concentration of aether. And then, as those horrific instruments of evil loomed overhead, casting the dark shadow of death, the surface of the lake suddenly parted and burst skyward as Midgardsormr emerged to defend his waters.

The battle between Midgardsormr and the Agrius has since come to be known as the Battle of Silvertear Skies. The dragon fought with divine strength and purpose, and after a fierce and grueling struggle, succeeded in bringing down the airship. As it fell into the lake, the impact caused the ceruleum onboard to detonate, and Midgardsormr was killed, his corpse charred black in the conflagration. The structure formed by the wreckage of the Agrius and the entangled remains of Midgardsormr is now called the Keeper of the Lake. For many religious and mythological enthusiasts, it stands as proof of the existence of the gods. For most people, however, it servers as a grim reminder of the horrific, dare I say deicidal, power of Garlemald. Why did that dragon appear that day? Was it truly the Midgardsormr, the legendary guardian of Silvertear Falls? Such questions and more remain unanswered.

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(10-09-2015, 11:19 PM)Masaki Moui Wrote: Other than this, I've heard that Woodsin is what visitors or inhabitants accumulate when they live in a way that defies the will of the elementals. It was what made it difficult to enter or return to the Shroud if you'd lived differently than the elementals wanted and they had rituals to cleanse it.

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Woodsin Lore

Amiable Adventurer Wrote:You would do well to fear the Twelveswoodâ€”and live in awe of it. It is as integral to us Gridanians as the sun and the moons. She demands your due respect. Never attempt to oppose her, for she is alive and she never forgets.

Morose Merchant Wrote:Impurity's as bad as a curse, I tell ye. Gotta get all them dirty deeds off yer back, else the elementals'll get ye. I didn't believe it, neitherâ€”till some of me own mates were taken right before me eyes. Poor bastards.

Miounne Wrote:If you were attacked by a treant, you must have more than a little woodsin. You'll need to be purified, else the greenwrath will stay fixed on you.

You're tainted with woodsin, rememberâ”€which means you're apt to waken the greenwrath. Neglect to dance in the rites, and you're not like to survive another trip into the wood.

O-App-Pesi Wrote:Hahaha, well, be that as it may, a cleansing is needed. Woodsin is not to be taken lightlyâ”€something you would do well to remember. I gather it is nigh time we hold the rites. Until then, take care not to enter the forest depths. Gods know how much woodsin you've steeped yourselves in. It could well prove your undoing.

We dance to honor the elementals, and they forgive us our woodsin in turn. Thus absolved, their greenwrath will not be stirred. Remember this.

Zezekuta Wrote:Your mask for the purification rite is nearly finished. Come, try it on to test the fit. Is there some problem? I assumed Fufucha had explained everything...

The purification rite is a kind of, well... transference is what the conjurers call it. You see, dancing in the name of the elementals expunges woodsin by transferring it to the dancer's mask and binding it there, magically.

Hermit Krimm Wrote:If the woodsin upon a soul is too great, the power of the purification mask may collapse under the burden. But I do not think you are in any such danger.

Zezekuta Wrote:No, we are creating new masks for you. Brother E-Sumi has assured us that the mask in question was old, worn with age and use, its powers faded. And besides, one does not become a wildling without doing something to wake the greenwrath. Khrimm's parents, Sigurdh and Oona, and Fye's brother, Dunstanâ€”they were among Gridania's finest warriors. They all fought nobly against the Garleans occupying Ala Mhigo. A necessary evil, I suppose. Yet all that violence doubtless served to compound their woodsin.

Miounne Wrote:Sounsyy, there is word of a commotion over at Stillglade Fane. Haven't been to see for myself, but I've heard talk of wildlings. From childhood, we forestborn are taught that bringing woodsin into the city brings the greenwrath upon everyone in it. There is no greater danger in all the wood. Times like this, there's naught for the commonfolk to do but trust that the conjurers and moogles will calm the wood.

Soileine Wrote:Among the elementals of the Twelveswood, there are some whose strength far surpasses that of others. They reside within the ancient trees. Thus disaster follows whenever these trees are felled or burned. The fury of the elementals within reaches heights we cannot calm. It is for that reason we have created the Hedge. Yet the elementals live in all things. As Gridanians, we embrace this truth, while many outsiders remain oblivious to it. When these irreverent souls breach the Hedge and enter the wood, they defile it with every breath they draw. And so invite the elementals' angerâ”€the greenwrath. In this manner, they endanger not only themselves, but us as well. Thus do we make it our mission to scout the Twelveswood in search of them.

Nicia Wrote:You are an adventurer, are you not? Know that none but the conjurers can help those tainted by the woodsin. You have been warned. Do not plead ignorance should the greenwrath find you.

O-App-Pesi Wrote:No need to introduce yourself, I know full well who you are. The â€œhapless adventurer,â€ many and more are calling you. I reckon not a single one of the Twelve was watching over you, to have sent you here just when the Hedge was sundered. Ah, forgive me, I suppose an explanation is in order. We conjurers of Gridania use our magic to weave a sort of barrier around the Twelveswood. It is a pact we share with the most ancient of the elementals. They protect our city-state, and in turn we protect them. That is why the Hedge exists. Think of it as a symbol of our friendship. Itâ€™s also what you and any other non-native to Gridania have to thank for not being attacked upon entering the forest. At least, you would have it to thank had you not passed along just as a portion of the Hedge was broken. The greenwrath was upon you the instant you drew nearâ€”and it clings to you still. Sorry to say, but youâ€™ve got the stink of woodsin all about you. After all that, you still need to ask if forest elementals truly exist?

Bardo Wrote:Lookin' for a cut-up tree, are ye? Aye, I reckon I might've seen the one ye're after. Cut up by Garlean blades, if I was to wager a guess. Right near where the fight happened, it was. Never seen such a fearsome spectacle. Some sort of creature appeared, bright as the sun to look at, and went for them Garlean bastards like a bloody fury. One of 'em ran it through with his sword, though, and whatever light was in the beast took to fadin', till finally it was gone. And just then, I felt the whole forest go cold. Chilled me to the bone, it did.

As to what in the seven bloody hells the beast was, I couldn't rightly say. Maybe the elementals called it up to fight for 'em. Maybe not. But whatever it was, the forestfolk need to be told of it.

Mestonnaux Wrote:In light of this, the conjurers of Stillglade Fane have resolved to hold a rite of cleansing. Ah, you must forgive me. We forestfolk are wont to assume all know of the rite, so integral is it to our own lives. Let me enlighten you as to our ways. The majority of the rite of cleansing takes place here at Greatloam Growery. The magic enacted during the ceremony quells the greenwrath of the elementals, and thus ensures harmony within the wood.

R'djongo Wrote:We Gridanians have a penchant for festivities you'll not find elsewhere. We hold ceremonies to praise the elementals, and other rite to give them our thanks. We even dance to appease them when they are angered.

If the annals are to be believed, there was actually a ceremony intended to arouse their anger at one time. What in the hells was the point of that, I wonder!? And who in their right minds would think to take part!?

Yda Wrote:What strange and ridiculous dancing! We have nothing like it back in Sharlayanâ€”thank the gods for that!

Hope this helps! ^^ Gods this turned out to be an absolutely massive post. Bedtime.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - LiadansWhisper - 10-10-2015

The only thing about what Yulmheric (sp? On my phone) says is that he is an iffy witness. The elementals being unwilling to "suffer" the presence of "such a creature" could just mean they don't allow them in the Twelveswood rather than that they accrue woodsin by being within its borders (i.e. instant Greenwrath as opposed to a gradual build - of course that could also mean they just get all their woodsin at onceÂ Big Grin

Â ).

On the other hand, the person in question HATES dragons and firmly believes them to be evil. We now know this is an inaccurate view of dragons perpetuated by a corrupt and deceptive Holy See. So it's possible that he's just saying what HE believes to be true about dragons (after all, why would the Elementals suffer the presence of evildoers?).

Just my thoughts.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - Sounsyy - 10-10-2015

(10-10-2015, 08:45 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: The only thing about what Yulmheric (sp? On my phone) says is that he is an iffy witness. The elementals being unwilling to "suffer" the presence of "such a creature" could just mean they don't allow them in the Twelveswood rather than that they accrue woodsin by being within its borders (i.e. instant Greenwrath as opposed to a gradual build - of course that could also mean they just get all their woodsin at onceÂ Â ).

On the other hand, the person in question HATES dragons and firmly believes them to be evil. We now know this is an inaccurate view of dragons perpetuated by a corrupt and deceptive Holy See. So it's possible that he's just saying what HE believes to be true about dragons (after all, why would the Elementals suffer the presence of evildoers?).

Just my thoughts.

Pretty much this. He's a very unreliable and biased source. So we must take it with a grain of salt.

That said, Ser Yuhelmeric is demonstrated as being very much unlike his typical Ishgardian fanatics. He respects the Wood and the Elementals unlike many of the soldiers under his command.

Compare:

Soileine Wrote:As you may or may not know, the nation of Ishgard lies far to the north and west of here, down the Furline. Long have her gates been closed to the world, and it seems the irreverence of her knights has fermented within their confines. They enter the wood as they see fit, hacking and slashing with reckless abandon, paying no heed to what their plate and chain crushes underfoot.

Yuhelmeric Wrote:Lower your weapons. We will shed no blood here. The eyes of the Wood are upon us.

While that doesn't necessarily absolve him of his Ishgardian bias, it does support the idea that he might actually speak with the conjurers enough to know what can and cannot be done in the Wood, since in 1.0 it was his duty as Lord Commander of the Knights of House Durendaire to protect the border between Coerthas and the Black Shroud from dragons and heretic fugitives.

Yairemont Wrote:You bring word from the Gods' Quiver? I see... the heretics... Ser! Send word to Lord Yuhelmeric. We march for the Black Shroud! It grieves me that the people of Gridania have suffered for our negligence. You may be assured Lord Yuhelmeric will issue a formal apology on behalf of us all. I pray the Twelve see you safely home.

Additionally, Gridania's close alliance with Ishgard may also paint policy. Heretics are not allowed within the Black Shroud either and are promptly whisked back to Ishgard - I imagine a dragon would meet similar wariness.

And one final point to bring up, is that the Dravanians are a beast race, just like the Ixal and the Sylphs. If the latter two can accrue woodsin, I don't see feasibly why a dragon could not also under the right conditions. Perhaps it would not immediately be steeped in the greenwrath like Yuhelmeric suggests, but I imagine if he harmed a tree or set fire to the Irmin Hedge the Elementals would not have been pleased.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - Masaki Moui - 10-10-2015

Wow, Sounsyy! Wow! I woke up and it's like Christmas but with Lore! Thank you so much for posting all that. I share so many of your conclusions and I'm about to lore dive the other forum posts you left here.

According to Kan-E-Senna, elementals can see into your emotions and know your heart, are sensitive to Woodsin created not just within the Shroud but beyond it as well. White Mage players are well-aware that A-Towa-Cant went on pilgrimages to cleanse taints beyond the Shroud because the Shroud is not an isolated bubble immune to the chaos of the external world. Taints from without make their way in to the Shroud through sources such as shared groundwater and I believe it would be the same with people entering the Shroud too. You see that in 1.0 with Yda, Papalymo and the adventurer entering the Shroud for the first time. (However the Shroud's also changed since the Calamity and I address that below.)

Quotes from the Lore seem to demonstrate this to me. Including: Zezekuta Wrote: "â€”they were among Gridania's finest warriors. They all fought nobly against the Garleans occupying Ala Mhigo. A necessary evil, I suppose. Yet all that violence doubtless served to compound their woodsin." And Miounne wrote: "From childhood, we forestborn are taught that bringing woodsin into the city brings the greenwrath upon everyone in it. There is no greater danger in all the wood."

Around level 25 MSQ, we see people being turned away in Quarrymill (considered the judging grounds for immigrants who want to live in the forest) probably based on the fact that their hearts are too steeped in violence, much like the quote from Zezekuta above. If you observe the emotional resonance of Meffrid vs. Albreda and take into account what Kan-E-Senna said about the elementals judging people by the state of their hearts, you can see the implicit connection. Albreda's heart is pretty calm; Meffrid is emotionally volatile. Albreda was allowed to live in Quarrymill; Meffrid is turned away. Even though Meffrid may have fought valiantly in the Resistance, my theory is that there's something about that violent experience that the elementals have deemed too dangerous to allow in the forest.

My other theory is that the reason the Coeurlclaws and Redbellies are rampant in the South Shroud is because the Hedge that is mentioned by O-App-Pesi in Sounsyy's post has been all-but destroyed during the Calamity, and the elementals are severely weakened due to aether being drained low everywhere in the world right now. So they are relying upon the Wood Wailers and Conjurers to continue to hound those who have a great deal of Woodsin because the elementals only have enough strength to come forth in times of great peril; such as one of the Conjurer quests in the South Shroud where you fight off Voidsent with the NPC Hearers.

However similar some of this is to a sentient dragon wishing to enter, I would imagine that the elementals have a very different concern with the nigh immortal and highly aetherically charged Dravanians because they are not common mortals who have short lifespans while running amok in the forest. I think it would also depend on how long the dragon wishes to stay.

This is the very real peril presented to the Shroud these days and it makes for an awesome roleplaying situation. So I present all these ideas to the OP for the day the dragon enters the Shroud.

There's one more topic of interest here and that's the continuing White Mage story through Coerthas from level 50 to 60. It's really important to know and just in case people don't want to see a spoiler about job quests, I'll put it behind a spoiler tag:

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It also shows that something can happen well beyond Gridania that brings on the Woodsin without ever being inside the forest. I only present all this stuff as enjoyable lore tidbits for the OP to build story with and I hope it's helpful and gets some fun ideas stirring.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - LiadansWhisper - 10-10-2015

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I have more to comment, but I'm at work. Sad

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - Masaki Moui - 10-10-2015

That's a good point, let me edit my post for more clarity!

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - Sounsyy - 10-10-2015

(10-10-2015, 04:31 PM)Masaki Moui Wrote: Around level 25 MSQ, we see people being turned away in Quarrymill (considered the judging grounds for immigrants who want to live in the forest) probably based on the fact that their hearts are too steeped in violence, much like the quote from Zezekuta above. If you observe the emotional resonance of Meffrid vs. Albreda and take into account what Kan-E-Senna said about the elementals judging people by the state of their hearts, you can see the implicit connection. Albreda's heart is pretty calm; Meffrid is emotionally volatile. Albreda was allowed to live in Quarrymill; Meffrid is turned away. Even though Meffrid may have fought valiantly in the Resistance, my theory is that there's something about that violent experience that the elementals have deemed too dangerous to allow in the forest.

Pretty good theory for how Elementals determine who goes and who stays. In 1.0, Oha-Sok judged you worthy of Her soul and magic based upon how kind your heart was. So I think there's enough proof to back your theory.

Oha-Sok Wrote:Sounsyy Mirke. Long have I watched thee. Through thine eyes have I gazed upon the children of the sixth sun. I am wrath incarnate. By my kindred's rage I am given life, by their keening roused to wakefulness. Even as I mourn the departure of light, I grieve the arrival of shadow. Gentle child of man. Thy heart knoweth no vice, thine intentions righteous. Yet thy strength knoweth no purpose but conflict. In conflict, there is naught but suffering.

Hark! The keening of my kind riseth to a crescendo! The new moon loometh nigh, and when it cometh, woods shall wither and seas shall roil. Pray forgive me, child of gentle heart, and fare thee well. When the end of days is come, I pray that thy soul shall know true peace.

Balan Wrote:Refugees must first spend a night here in Quarrymill that the elementals might judge them worthy of living in the Twelveswood. Their decision cannot be appealed. Every one of us, Gridanians included, dwell here only by the elementals' leave.

____________________

(10-10-2015, 04:31 PM)Masaki Moui Wrote: My other theory is that the reason the Coeurlclaws and Redbellies are rampant in the South Shroud is because the Hedge that is mentioned by O-App-Pesi in Sounsyy's post has been all-but destroyed during the Calamity, and the elementals are severely weakened due to aether being drained low everywhere in the world right now. So they are relying upon the Wood Wailers and Conjurers to continue to hound those who have a great deal of Woodsin because the elementals only have enough strength to come forth in times of great peril; such as one of the Conjurer quests in the South Shroud where you fight off Voidsent with the NPC Hearers.

Perhaps that, but the poachers and looters and thieves were a problem in 1.0 as well, when the elementals were at their full strength. I think that the problem lies in how much the poachers are poaching, not that they are poaching. There's some interesting lore that the areas of South Shroud are elemental-sanctioned hunting grounds. Certain things can be culled, just obviously not to excess. Here's some lore snippets:

Charline Wrote:Quarrymill was named for the waterwheels that served to process raw stone into building material. Over the years, it has come to be a gathering place for hunters and trappers, owing to its location amidst elemental-sanctioned hunting grounds. Quarrymill is also a place of judgement. All outsiders who wish to dwell in the Twelveswood must present themselves here to have their worthiness weighed by the elementals. Those whose petition is denied cannot remain in the wood, nor can they receive of its bounty. Harsh though it may seem, this has been the way of it since time immemorial.

045 Vista Record Wrote:South Shroud Landing
Constructed by Highwind Skyways to serve as a landing for cargo airships, this location was quickly abandoned when the imperial presence in the area became too large to ignore. Now the site is used as a makeshift market where bandits and poachers peddle their ill-gotten wares far from the eyes of the law.

Isarmoix Wrote:Antelope and dormice abound in these parts, but we must be careful not to hunt more than befits our need. What the forest gives, it can just as easily take away.

Wood Wailer Sentry Wrote:Even the bounty of the forest has its limits. To loot it for your own gains is to court the wrath of the elementals...

Now, the whole Coeurlclaw poacher problem is obviously exacerbated by the fact that its "King" requires initiates to murder Wood Wailers.

Faucertaux Wrote:Mayhap you've heard the tales, but the place they call Redbelly Hive wasn't always a wretched nest of scum and villainy. In the old days, it was home to a hamlet called Boughbury, where Hyur and Elezen alike lived a life of peace. That was before the Calamity came and all hells broke loose. Those Redbelly whoresons moved in when the villagers fled, and they've had their run of the place ever since.

And the hatred against the Redbelly Elezen seems to be more motivated by their hostile take over of a once-peaceful hamlet, and their willingness to kill Gridanians.

Faucertaux Wrote:When the surviving villagers tried to return from Gridania, they found those Redbelly bastards living on their land. Bad enough to lose your loved ones, but then to lose what little's left...

Cuthbert Wrote:Do you know how it feels? To see another man in your home, yet you're powerless to throw 'em out? For years!? Gods damn them all...

Conspiracy Theory Wrote:High-ranking members of the Redbelly Wasps have gathered in an abandoned hovel to discuss their next attack on Gridania's trade routes. See that they do not leave alive.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - Masaki Moui - 10-10-2015

(10-10-2015, 06:07 PM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(10-10-2015, 04:31 PM)Masaki Moui Wrote: My other theory is that the reason the Coeurlclaws and Redbellies are rampant in the South Shroud is because the Hedge that is mentioned by O-App-Pesi in Sounsyy's post has been all-but destroyed during the Calamity, and the elementals are severely weakened due to aether being drained low everywhere in the world right now. So they are relying upon the Wood Wailers and Conjurers to continue to hound those who have a great deal of Woodsin because the elementals only have enough strength to come forth in times of great peril; such as one of the Conjurer quests in the South Shroud where you fight off Voidsent with the NPC Hearers.

Perhaps that, but the poachers and looters and thieves were a problem in 1.0 as well, when the elementals were at their full strength. I think that the problem lies in how much the poachers are poaching, not that they are poaching. There's some interesting lore that the areas of South Shroud are elemental-sanctioned hunting grounds. Certain things can be culled, just obviously not to excess. Here's some lore snippets:

Charline Wrote:Quarrymill was named for the waterwheels that served to process raw stone into building material. Over the years, it has come to be a gathering place for hunters and trappers, owing to its location amidst elemental-sanctioned hunting grounds. Quarrymill is also a place of judgement. All outsiders who wish to dwell in the Twelveswood must present themselves here to have their worthiness weighed by the elementals. Those whose petition is denied cannot remain in the wood, nor can they receive of its bounty. Harsh though it may seem, this has been the way of it since time immemorial.

045 Vista Record Wrote:South Shroud Landing
Constructed by Highwind Skyways to serve as a landing for cargo airships, this location was quickly abandoned when the imperial presence in the area became too large to ignore. Now the site is used as a makeshift market where bandits and poachers peddle their ill-gotten wares far from the eyes of the law.

Isarmoix Wrote:Antelope and dormice abound in these parts, but we must be careful not to hunt more than befits our need. What the forest gives, it can just as easily take away.

Wood Wailer Sentry Wrote:Even the bounty of the forest has its limits. To loot it for your own gains is to court the wrath of the elementals...

Now, the whole Coeurlclaw poacher problem is obviously exacerbated by the fact that its "King" requires initiates to murder Wood Wailers.

Faucertaux Wrote:Mayhap you've heard the tales, but the place they call Redbelly Hive wasn't always a wretched nest of scum and villainy. In the old days, it was home to a hamlet called Boughbury, where Hyur and Elezen alike lived a life of peace. That was before the Calamity came and all hells broke loose. Those Redbelly whoresons moved in when the villagers fled, and they've had their run of the place ever since.

And the hatred against the Redbelly Elezen seems to be more motivated by their hostile take over of a once-peaceful hamlet, and their willingness to kill Gridanians.

Faucertaux Wrote:When the surviving villagers tried to return from Gridania, they found those Redbelly bastards living on their land. Bad enough to lose your loved ones, but then to lose what little's left...

Cuthbert Wrote:Do you know how it feels? To see another man in your home, yet you're powerless to throw 'em out? For years!? Gods damn them all...

Conspiracy Theory Wrote:High-ranking members of the Redbelly Wasps have gathered in an abandoned hovel to discuss their next attack on Gridania's trade routes. See that they do not leave alive.

Hey thanks for this insight as it paints a better picture that I can't easily reach since I wasn't able to play in 1.0. I can find all kinds of lore fragments taken from the cut scenes or flavor text, but I'll never know how the gameplay felt in the open world. So, what I'm hearing then is, there are more reasons for the poachers and looters remaining in the Shroud despite their behavior and these stem from before the Calamity.

Also that Amberscale information was just awesome to sift through - I appreciate it.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - LiadansWhisper - 10-11-2015

(10-10-2015, 04:31 PM)Masaki Moui Wrote: According to Kan-E-Senna, elementals can see into your emotions and know your heart, are sensitive to Woodsin created not just within the Shroud but beyond it as well. Â White Mage players are well-aware that A-Towa-Cant went on pilgrimages to cleanse taints beyond the Shroud because the Shroud is not an isolated bubble immune to the chaos of the external world. Â Taints from without make their way in to the Shroud through sources such as shared groundwater and I believe it would be the same with people entering the Shroud too. Â You see that in 1.0 with Yda, Papalymo and the adventurer entering the Shroud for the first time. (However the Shroud's also changed since the Calamity and I address that below.)

Having watched the cutscenes (I didn't get a chance to play in 1.0, either), I was under the impression that the woodsin that Yda, Papalymo, and the adventurer entering the Shroud accrued was actually from Yda and Papalymo, who got it because their airship crashed (iirc), and the adventurer just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and got "splashed" with it. Â Sucks to be him. Â The "woodsin" was literally trees and such being damaged by them crashing into them - it wasn't an "outside taint" that caused it, unless by "outside taint" you mean "bigass airship."

Quote:Quotes from the Lore seem to demonstrate this to me. Â Including: Zezekuta Wrote: "â€”they were among Gridania's finest warriors. They all fought nobly against the Garleans occupying Ala Mhigo. A necessary evil, I suppose. Yet all that violence doubtless served to compound their woodsin." And Miounne wrote: "From childhood, we forestborn are taught that bringing woodsin into the city brings the greenwrath upon everyone in it. There is no greater danger in all the wood."

Well, yes. Â There's a reason Gridania is pacifistic by nature, and their military all - to the last man - wear masks to absorb woodsin. Â Given the history of the War of the Magi, this is not surprising.

Quote:Around level 25 MSQ, we see people being turned away in Quarrymill (considered the judging grounds for immigrants who want to live in the forest) probably based on the fact that their hearts are too steeped in violence, much like the quote from Zezekuta above. Â If you observe the emotional resonance of Meffrid vs. Albreda and take into account what Kan-E-Senna said about the elementals judging people by the state of their hearts, you can see the implicit connection. Â Albreda's heart is pretty calm; Â Meffrid is emotionally volatile. Â Albreda was allowed to live in Quarrymill; Meffrid is turned away. Â Even though Meffrid may have fought valiantly in the Resistance, my theory is that there's something about that violent experience that the elementals have deemed too dangerous to allow in the forest.

The thing is...that Hearer is...problematic. Â She clearly has the typical issues that Gridanians have with outsiders, and at one point she is ordering players to go destroy artifacts from Gelmorra, ostensibly because some Duskwight archaeologists are in town looking them over. Â The reason this stands out is that there are other areas in the Shroud with above-ground ruins from the time of Gelmorra, and you're never sent to go destroy them. Â There's a lot of speculation as to her motives, so while yes, she may very well be relaying the absolute truth ("Look, Meffrid is a few bricks shy of a full load and the elementals can't deal with his bullshit, but Albreda is okay because her PTSD is controlled"), she may also be letting her own personal prejudices guide her judgement. Â When people talk about the possibility of "corrupt Hearers," she is one of the very first ones people point to.

Quote:However similar some of this is to a sentient dragon wishing to enter, I would imagine that the elementals have a very different concern with the nigh immortal and highly aetherically charged Dravanians because they are not common mortals who have short lifespans while running amok in the forest. Â I think it would also depend on how long the dragon wishes to stay.

Of all the creatures who might understand immortal beings that don't entirely exist in this reality, don't you think dragons might be the most likely to be able to do so? Â They, too, are immortal. Â They, too, have worked for the good of the planet as a whole (Midgardsormir has some connection with Hydaelyn that hasn't been fully explained yet, but it's definitely there). Â And they, too, have suffered greatly at the hands of outsiders. Â They also, so far as we are aware, have no ill-will towards the elementals.

Quote:There's one more topic of interest here and that's the continuing White Mage story through Coerthas from level 50 to 60. Â It's really important to know and just in case people don't want to see a spoiler about job quests, I'll put it behind a spoiler tag:

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SpoilerThis story actually culminates in the White Mage and the two Younger Seedseers battling with a Voidsent-style Dragon (possibly undead) a dragon that was reanimated and is undead, one created by an Au'ra wanderer who seeks revenge on all the people who treated her nomadic tribe in awful ways.

The entire story is worth a review because it is a recent and direct confrontation between one type of Dragon an undead dragon carcass and the Seedseers of Gridania.

With respect to the aether taint creating a direct impact on the Shroud, in some ways, you can't get any more direct than the information presented in this storyline. Â It's absolutely worth pursuing this storyline even though I agree with LiadansWhisper that the undead dragon is not necessarily representative of dragons as they are living and whole.

I still think that dragons and elementals do share some aetheric similarities due to dragon eyes collecting vast quantities of aether and elementals being aether made manifest but I'm not saying they're the same thing. They both seem to use a deep pool of aetheric power. I'm more interested in that the Au'ra was using dragon flesh to taint aetheric flows. Â The fact that this Au'ra was able to corrupt streams of aether using tainted dragon flesh is interesting. Â I'm not sure she could obtain the same amazing results with tainted Dodo flesh.

I've made edits in here so that my interest in this storyline is a lot more clear. I hope it helps!

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Quote:It also shows that something can happen well beyond Gridania that brings on the Woodsin without ever being inside the forest. Â I only present all this stuff as enjoyable lore tidbits for the OP to build story with and I hope it's helpful and gets some fun ideas stirring.

As far as I know, you can only accrue woodsin while you're in the Shroud. Â Things you do outside of the Shroud don't matter, and the Elementals aren't going to punish you for them (if they even know about it - since woodsin requires them to know who the hell you are and what you did). Â Woodsin and the "taint" referred to during the 50-60 questline are not the same thing. Â "Woodsin" you pissing the elementals off, a spiritual "coating," if you will, that will drive the creatures of the forest mad. Â The "taint" from the WHM questline is like an actual corruption of aether that's travelling through ley lines (and yes, underground streams of water) towards the Shroud. Â Even after completing the questline, though, I'm still not sure that the "taint" A-Towa-Cant made pilgrimages outside of the Shroud to deal with is the same "taint" that you deal with in the WHM story.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - Momo - 10-11-2015

We seem to be straying quite far from Dragons, and their susceptibility to woodsin. Â Going back to something that was mentioned earlier, though Dragons are a "beast race", unlike other beast races, they are ancient. Â Older than we know in the history of the world, and certainly older than the other races we have encountered. Â Also, blessed apparently by their creators, with long lives and many offspring, as well as a vision and power over the worlds that are known and unknown, of a magnitude that few other races, beast or otherwise, can match.

That being said, not all Dragons are old, many are young, and do not have long lives in comparison to their elders, but none the less, they are ancient, from a time before the warring races, and therefor possibly as ancient as the Elementals. Â This makes me think that they could have further immunity to the powers of the natural world (not to mention, a pact which could be termed "new" when matched against the terms of race whose eldest see years as fleeting moments, like that of the Pact of Gelmorra and Dragons) compared to that of other races, because of the origin of their race, and from what we have experienced of their power and affect on the natural order of the world should they so wish.

This is more a speculation on the balance of power and aether among the ancient beings, rather than something addressed by quotes by characters IG, but I think is something to be considered when speaking on what does and does not have an effect on Dragons. Â I would also concede, that most of the lower Dragons would probably be susceptible to a greater degree than that of the their elders, again in part due to their lower rank and power among their race, and the more fleeting terms of their lives.

RE: Dragons and Woodsin - V'aleera - 10-11-2015

(10-11-2015, 01:10 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Of all the creatures who might understand immortal beings that don't entirely exist in this reality, don't you think dragons might be the most likely to be able to do so? Â They, too, are immortal. Â They, too, have worked for the good of the planet as a whole (Midgardsormir has some connection with Hydaelyn that hasn't been fully explained yet, but it's definitely there). Â And they, too, have suffered greatly at the hands of outsiders. Â They also, so far as we are aware, have no ill-will towards the elementals.

In my opinion if any manner of conflict were to arise between the dragons and Elementals, it would be more likely rooted in possible apathy toward the well-being of the Shroud by the dragons than conscious ill will. While I don't see anything to suggest dragons have any desire to lash out at the Elementals, I also don't see them caring enough to tip-toe through the Shroud should they ever find themselves there.

But again that's just speculation, and in practice it would likely vary depending on the specific dragon and what they're doing.