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Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - Printable Version

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Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - Mia Moui - 10-12-2015

My life-partner asked me yesterday about what kinds of religious texts exist in Eorzea. They are very interested in subcultures like ours but not as a player.  Religion, for better or worst, plays a huge role in modern society and was even more influential in the time period that FFXIV is loosely based on.  But religious texts or religious belief doesn't seem to come up that often in the lore (at least based on my level 22 GLD and level 12 CNJ).

What kinds of religious texts exist in Eorzea?  Is there a common religious faith that many people subscribe to, akin to Christianity, Islam, or Judaism?

If your character is religious, what do you base that on?  How does it influence their life and the decisions they make?

If they are not religious, what is their impression of others who are so?

Thanks! 
★~(◡‿⊙✿)

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - Lekka Meyren - 10-12-2015

Eorzea at large believes in "The Twelve" - You choose a gods starsign to be born under in character creation.

How much they're revered depends on cultures. Ishgard are way into Halone; while Al'amigho is all about Rhalgr. The cities I believe also have patron/matron deities; and there's a bunch of stuff about the worshippers of Menphina/Azeyma in and around Ul'dah.
(And Nald'thal for the black mages guild)

You'll get to more of it in the story. There's also references to it in the intro cinematic and some of the story writeups from the ARR launch.

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - SessionZero - 10-12-2015

Hydaelyn is also known as the Mother Crystal, but it doesn't seem like many people actually know about that. The main deities revered in Eorzea are the Twelve. Some are patrons of certain city states (Halone is the patron of Ishgard, Nophica is the patron of Gridania, Llymlaen is the patron of Limsa Lominsa, Nald'Thal is the patron of Ul'dah, and Rhalgr is the patron of Ala Mhigo), while others are revered by races as a whole (Sun Seekers revere Ayzema the sun goddess, while Keepers revere Menphina the moon goddess). 

Other gods and goddesses are patrons of a lifestyle (Thaliak is revered by scholars and mages, Oschon is revered by wanderers). The pantheon is also inter-related similar to the Greek pantheon (Rhalgr is the father of Halone, Halone is the companion of Oschon, Ayzema and Menphina are sisters, etc.)

Personally, I have one character who is very religious - my Ishgardian Elezen, Reilan. He is an adherent of Halone, once a member of the Orthodox Church of Halone, but has since strayed from that particular chapter and now reveres her in his own way, interpreting her texts and teachings his own way. It's an unusual thing for an Ishgardian to do so, but his personal storyline has driven him to such a belief.

Here's the official wiki on the Twelve: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/The_Twelve

Edit: Not the offical wiki. I let my fingers get ahead of myself there.

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - Koureanna - 10-12-2015

Another large part of it is how far the individuals go for their religion, The ishgaridans are run based on the church, To the point that most ishgardians can been seen as vehemently religious. There are also the primals witch are gods to each of the individual beast races. They worship them so reverently that they can end up bringing them into the physical realm.
The easiest way that you can look at it the religion in the game is broke into three main parts.
The mother crystal-For the most part either revered or worshiped in some way or form by all.
The Twelve-For the sake of keeping it simple they are worshiped by the Good(player) faction
The Primals- Worshiped as gods by the beastmen with each group having their own deity
These are the three main religions and can all be broken down into subsets.
Then you have slightly minor ones that i wont talk about because they can be big spoliers.

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - Valde - 10-12-2015

From my experience playing the game so far, they're there and revered to an extent, but it's not a hugely pervading thing sans the more drastic sections. As was mentioned before things like Ishgard, the Black Mages, and Ala Mhigo with their reverence for their respective gods are when you see it become blatant.

But aside from the occasional poor expression concerning some poor deity's balls I haven't seen much to suggest that it's a hugely influencing factor for many. That's not to say it isn't there, but perhaps it doesn't have an overwhelming impact. It could also be more important, or less, depending on the city?

I would suspect Gridania's huge focus on balance with nature and the elementals to have a more robust worshipping practice than say Limsa outside of superstitious pirates? The argument can easily go many ways though.

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - Koureanna - 10-12-2015

(10-12-2015, 11:00 AM)Isaelt Haragin Wrote: From my experience playing the game so far, they're there and revered to an extent, but it's not a hugely pervading thing sans the more drastic sections. As was mentioned before things like Ishgard, the Black Mages, and Ala Mhigo with their reverence for their respective gods are when you see it become blatant.

But aside from the occasional poor expression concerning some poor deity's balls I haven't seen much to suggest that it's a hugely influencing factor for many. That's not to say it isn't there, but perhaps it doesn't have an overwhelming impact. It could also be more important, or less, depending on the city?

I would suspect Gridania's huge focus on balance with nature and the elementals to have a more robust worshipping practice than say Limsa outside of superstitious pirates? The argument can easily go many ways though.
Limsa more uses the Navigator in a couple ways not so much as superstitions but along the same way that ancient mariners would pray to Posidian for safety and protection. At least this is way i see it in game.

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - Vyce - 10-12-2015

I'd say it differs from person to person depending on what jis or her life revolves around.

Solmund is a merchant and a gambler. When luck smiles upon him, he attributes it to the idea that the Nald'Thal have favored him. It causes his outlook on life to be a glass-half-full point of view. But then again, when you have tons of gil, everything looks pretty bright.

From an atheological perspective, his successes come from a wise eye for business and decision-making (and also clever cheating) rather than the direct intervention of divinity, but if you were to challenge him, he would likely ask you who bestowed him with those abilities.

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - Eliane Dufresne - 10-12-2015

When it comes to religious texts specifically, the only one I can think of off the top of my head that's actually named in game is the Enchiridion. It's a holy text of the Ishgardian Orthodox Church, containing the teachings of Halone...so you could consider it the Halonic Bible.

The etymology behind the word "Enchridion" roughly translates from Greek as "something so useful, you should always have it on you". Presumably many Ishgardians either carry a copy around with them, or at the very least, have one at home. Oddly enough, there's a quest where an Elezen in Coerthas has you go all the way to Ul'dah to get him a copy, so it almost seems like copies of it are kind of rare. Either that, or Ul'dahn merchants are trying to create an artificial scarcity. Tongue

In any case, there are sadly no examples of the contents of the book anywhere in game yet, but given how generally zealous Ishgard is about its Halone worship, it's probably safe to assume that there's a fair amount of Enchiridion-thumpers about. If just about everyone truly does have a copy, the book is probably quite influential on every day Ishgardian life.

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - LiadansWhisper - 10-12-2015

One of the things that bugs me the most about the setting is that we really don't know much about how any of the religions in Eorzea work.

We know about the Twelve, but amusingly, we actually know more about what the Beast Tribes believe about their gods than we do about the religious practices of our own characters' faiths.

A great example of this is the Sanctum of the Twelve in East Shroud.  There are small altars to each of the Twelve throughout the location.  However, we don't see any offerings of any sort.  Do Eorzeans leave offerings to their gods?  There are none to be seen.  Even at the Altar of Nophica in front of the Stillglade Fane, we don't see  any sort of offerings (though the altar itself is, interestingly to me, a large bowl).

When you go to Ul'dah and visit the shrines to Nald'thal, there is a little more there - you actually have candles.  What isn't clear, at least to me, is whether those candles are there because it's freaking dark inside the shrines (they are in caves, after all!), or whether they are there as offerings or prayers or the like.

We don't know much about the belief systems of each deity beyond the short blurb we're given about them.  We never see anyone actually worshiping their gods.  There are no religious texts for us to actually peruse in or out of game, and the only times we're interacting directly with NPCs that are clergy of a deity, they don't really explain what it is they believe or why they are doing what they are doing.  We're left to extrapolate from vague comments by other NPCs and our own understanding of the situation.

And then there's the question of Hydaelyn herself...only a few people ever mention the crystal.  Sometimes it seems like her existence might be well known, but other times, it seems like it is known only to a few who happen to have access to that ancient knowledge.

My degree is in Anthropology, so this drives me absolutely nuts.  Because, the thing is, religion (some kind of spirituality or belief system) is really, really important to most (if not all) cultures.  It is a hallmark of every culture we've ever found - everyone believes in something.  That something might not make any logical sense to me, but the belief is still there.  So what I really want to know is...
  • How do the Twelve interact with each other?
  • What exactly are the belief systems surrounding them?
  • If I have a cold, which deity is the one I'm most likely to pray to?
  • Is there a deity that represents mercy in all of its forms, and more fascinating to me, is it female?  (Most pantheons have at least one deity that represents some type of mercy, and I've yet to find one that isn't female, because while female deities can be every bit as terrifying as male deities, in general male deities are not associated with the qualities of mercy and compassion.)
  • If Nophica is the patron deity of Gridania, do the people there pray to her when their family members die, or do they pray to Nald'thal?
  • Are the deities jealous?  Which is to say, if you are Ishgardian and you pray to a deity other than Halone - let's say Lymlaen - would that constitute heresy?  Would a Wood Wailer pray to Halone on the eve of battle, or would he pray to Nophica (who appears to be a pacifist, but is the patron of Gridania!)?
  • What are priests of Nophica called?  Does she even have clergy?  Yes, there are people standing around her altar outside of the Stillglade Fane, but they appear to be Conjurers.  Does this mean that Conjurers in service to the Fane are, by default, clergy of Nophica?  Or is something else going on here?
  • What are priests of every deity called?  Or does each deity even have a priesthood?
  • What offerings are acceptable to each deity?  Do they even ask for/accept offerings?
  • What rituals and rites does each deity require?  Do they require rituals and rites at all?
I could go on.  This is just a pet peeve of mine.  I really, really, really wish we had a fleshed-out belief system for the setting we're playing in, and I hope that, at some point, the devs will actually get around to setting one up.

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - V'aleera - 10-12-2015

(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
  • How do the Twelve interact with each other?
  • If I have a cold, which deity is the one I'm most likely to pray to?
  • Is there a deity that represents mercy in all of its forms, and more fascinating to me, is it female?  (Most pantheons have at least one deity that represents some type of mercy, and I've yet to find one that isn't female, because while female deities can be every bit as terrifying as male deities, in general male deities are not associated with the qualities of mercy and compassion.)
  • Are the deities jealous?  Which is to say, if you are Ishgardian and you pray to a deity other than Halone - let's say Lymlaen - would that constitute heresy?  Would a Wood Wailer pray to Halone on the eve of battle, or would he pray to Nophica (who appears to be a pacifist, but is the patron of Gridania!)?
These are the only points I feel equipped to answer or speculate on:

-We know the Twelve do interact extensively and are, to various degrees, related. Some of them are related by blood, others by marriage.

-Since there doesn't seem to be a universal mercy god, I would imagine that the role defaults to the guardian deity of the specific person. Alternatively, Nymeia being the goddess of fate may or may not take on that role.

-Unknown as it relates to worship, but they do seem to feud sometimes. For example, Halone and Nophica allegedly did not get along well, and there is an Eorzean story about how Oschon(?) peeped on Llymlaen taking a bath.

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - LiadansWhisper - 10-13-2015

(10-12-2015, 07:15 PM)V Wrote: These are the only points I feel equipped to answer or speculate on:

-We know the Twelve do interact extensively and are, to various degrees, related. Some of them are related by blood, others by marriage.

Yes, but we don't know how they interact.

Quote:-Since there doesn't seem to be a universal mercy god, I would imagine that the role defaults to the guardian deity of the specific person. Alternatively, Nymeia being the goddess of fate may or may not take on that role.

Except we don't know there's no universal deity of mercy.  That's my point - we don't really know much of anything about the Twelve.  We actually know more about the origins, rites, and practices of the Primals than we do about the Twelve.

Quote:-Unknown as it relates to worship, but they do seem to feud sometimes. For example, Halone and Nophica allegedly did not get along well, and there is an Eorzean story about how Oschon(?) peeped on Llymlaen taking a bath.

But we don't know why Nophica and Halone hate one another.  There's no story behind it, and there's no explanation of whether or not this causes problems between, for instance, Ishgard and Gridania, whether clergy of Nophica are even welcome in Ishgardian lands, and clergy of Halone in the Shroud, etc.

I JUST WANNA KNOW MORE, OK?  Cry

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - Sounsyy - 10-13-2015

Matron's teats, Liadan...



Religion In Eorzea

(10-12-2015, 10:02 AM)Mia Moui Wrote: What kinds of religious texts exist in Eorzea?  Is there a common religious faith that many people subscribe to, akin to Christianity, Islam, or Judaism?

Alright, let's start easy...
In Eorzea, worship of a pantheon of deities collectively known as the Twelve is the most common religious practice. The Twelve are only worshiped in Eorzea and only by the Five Races. The Beast races believe in primal deities, which they believe created them in their image (not the other way around).

Fernehalwes Wrote:As for geographical distribution, worship of the Twelve is, for the most part, limited to Eorzea.

Fernehalwes Wrote:I can mention why primals are referred to as primals, though. It is not because they are underdeveloped, younger deities, but because the beast tribes tend to believe that they were the ones who created them, the world, and everything. They are the primal forms of existence.

Worship of the Twelve varies greatly from city to city, person to person, from craft or profession to another.

Fernehalwes Wrote:The same can be said regarding religion. Each city-state has a patron (matron) deity, and most people in that city-state will follow the teachings of that god or goddess. There are, for the most part, however, no strict religious codes that must be followed. Some Eorzeans will choose to worship a deity connected to their profession (for example, weavers often follow Nymeia the Spinner). Some follow the deity associated with their nameday. There are even some Eorzeans who choose not to follow the teachings of the Twelve, but they are few and far between...and often will not admit it.

The exception to this rule can be seen in Ishgard, where they take the teachings of Halone very seriously...to the point that the church and state have become inseparable. They go as far as calling those who do not follow the Fury 'unbelievers,' and those who are found to have communicated with the dragons of Dravania (the mortal enemies of Ishgard), are branded as heretics and in some cases executed.

Now, on to religious texts!
The most notable religious text we have is the Enchiridion.

Fernehalwes Wrote:Publication: The Enchiridion
The holiest of Ishgardian scripture, this tome outlines the teachings of Halone.

Gaetelle Wrote:The foundation of our great city-state rests upon the wisdom of the Enchiridion. Alas, the lowborn in particular have suffered greatly as a result of erroneous interpretations. Some have even begun to wonder if all our precepts have been thus distorted.

There are a very scant few references to the actual texts and teachings found within.

Polished Till They Shine Wrote:There is a well-known excerpt in Halonic teachings which states, “If thou hath not suffered much of battlefields, worry not of the Fury's discontent, for in Her halls may yet be thy sanctuary. Grasp in thine hand a coarse sapphire and paint thy mind with those who forsaketh Her name. Should thy wish be pure, the stone's surface shalt smooth in time, and grant thee a vision of Halone's halls, O Fury's gift, sated by thy wish.” While the stone resembles a lifetime of “polishing” dedication and prayer, so inspired are the nobles of the High Houses that they never tire of their want for star sapphires fashioned into rosaries and decadent adornments worn from head to toe. Of course, none but the church can provide baubles of saving grace that have been properly blessed (and hence taxed accordingly). I shall pay you in full should you bring me quality star sapphires so that those gentle lords and ladies may be given some salvation from the comfort of their homes, in lieu of joining the battle.

Smiling Seminarian Wrote:"Of the Fury's love will all men receive, and by the balance of Her spear will all be set free." So it is written in volume eleven of the Seventy-two Articles of Halonic Polity.
Crammevoix de Maintigny Wrote:"Equal under Her ever watchful gaze."

Now, the following aren't exact texts from the Enchiridion, but teachings from it or the Halonic Church:

Halonic Hermeneutics Wrote:There is some divergence in interpretations of the Enchiridion, yet all lead towards one doctrine writ in dragon blood. Regarding magic, there are those who believe thaumaturgy puts the clergy's prayer to action, and those who believe prayer alone is sufficient to manifest the Fury's miracles. After the recent incursions by the Dravanians, I tend to favor the “burn and destroy” school of thought, and would ask you supply us with staves with which to practice fighting fire with fire.

These Boots Are Made for Hawkin Wrote:'Tis with great sorrow that I have received a letter from a commander who writes that we lost scores of men in the western highlands during a skirmish with an enormous dragon. While the fiend was vanquished, the carnage was such that the deceased cannot be returned to the capital, and we have no choice but to bury them in the field. Other armies may leave their dead to rot as they press on, but Halonic law states that all knights are to be prepared for their ascension to Her halls, and thus I have asked for a handful of priests to join the mortuary contingent, who must needs replace their thin slippers with something more formidable for the journey.

Sightseeing #68 The Nail Wrote:As is described in the Enchiridion, to ensure the realm of man did not drift apart from the firmament, Halone stuck the Nail through both, ever binding the two. And though assailed on all sides by great metal shards fallen from the lesser moon Dalamud's crust, the ancient peak remained standing, a testament to the land's life force.

Sightseeing #73 The Fury's Gaze Wrote:A place holy to all Ishgardians, it is believed that when a man stands within this hidden grotto, the Fury Herself will reach deep into the darkest recesses of his soul and lay out his sins before him, allowing the man to repent those failings. The Monument Tower nearby was built to protect this hallowed ground from the taint of dragons and heretics.

Halone's Jewelry Box Wrote:Among the dusty tomes of the church library, I discovered a sacred contraption lost to time?a set of complex and beautifully ornate metal boxes intended for none but the most exalted. He would be seated with hands and feet shackled and his head held pointed to the sky, propped up with a tightened iron collar. The only light that penetrates the dark casket is shone through a large-grade star sapphire, set into the top of the box. When the morning light hits the stone just right, it reflects its radiance into the holy man's eyes, and allows him to see a grand vision from paradise. The tome's excerpt said a handful of priests in history have even been given the gift of a vision so holy that their eyes are burnt blue and can see the dregs and impurity of this world no longer! The ornate boxes have already arrived from Ishgard's finest artisans, but I yet require star sapphires large enough to bathe our eyes in Her merciful light. I will pay a hefty price to any mineral hunter who can bring me the largest sapphires in Chocobo Forest.

There's also text on the Weeping Saint and how its a holy place where weapons and unbelievers are not allowed in the Quest: Papa Do Preach, but I can't find the exact text.

EDIT: (3.15 Scholasticate Update)
The Parables of Saint Daniffen - regarded as children's stories by many, religious texts by others.


Now, other than the Enchiridion, there's the tale of Llymlaen's Ascent:
Fernehalwes Wrote:Is there a mythology about the Twelve that isn’t mentioned in-game? (ex. Holy books, manuscripts, rituals, etc.)

Answer: Yes, a great deal of mythology exists. Unfortunately, a lot remains unreleased. The storyline in 2.0 should reveal much more about the Twelve, but until then, I leave you with this Fun Fact: perhaps you have noticed, but in several of the dungeons in La Noscea you will find locations on your maps with names like "Llymlaen's Folly" or "Llymlaen's Trial." These are, in fact, sacred sites for the followers of the Navigator--each representing one of the 12 chapters in the tale of Llymlaen's Ascent. As part of their worship, followers risk their lives to perform yearly pilgrimages, visiting all twelve sites in the order they appear in the tale.

The chapters (in order) are as follows:

Llymlaen's Folly
Llymlaen's Flight
Llymlaen's Tempest
Llymlaen's Clarity
Llymlaen's Resolve
Llymlaen's Bearing
Llymlaen's Trial
Llymlaen's Encounter
Llymlaen's Stand
Llymlaen's Triumph
Llymlaen's Oath
Llymlaen's Ascent

Beyond this reference, Llymlaen has several other scant references that she is looked upon reverently or worshiped fervently. However, there are no other mentions of religious texts associated with her beyond Llymlaen's Ascent. However, there are several word of mouth tales about her, including a Lominsan creation myth surrounding her serpents Thalaos and Perykos.

Sisipu Wrote:Legend has it that long, long ago, the world was a parched wasteland, filled with nothing but fire and rocks. Llymlaen, the Navigator, saw this and created a giant serpent to spout forth water and create Eorzea's oceans. But soon she realized that the serpent would never stop, and that all the land would one day disappear beneath the waves, so she sealed the beast away within a floating island called Swallowtail Roam. The island drifts about the sea so that those with evil intentions might never find it... If the rumors are true, and the sea serpent has escaped from Swallowtail Roam, then it won't be long before the seas begin to rise once more, and Limsa Lominsa is swallowed whole.

Upon the statue of the seagull bearing the mark of Llymlaen lies this text in Eorzean:
Anchor Yard Statue Wrote:Borne on high by wind divine, in the halls of the Twelve be heard.

This sounds like the Anchor Yard is a place to speak or pray to Llymlaen. Here your voice will be heard.

Sightseeing #26 The Navigator Wrote:Carved centuries past by a famous Roegadyn sculptor, this massive stone effigy located in the center of Aleport's lower plaza serves as hallowed ground upon which sailors might offer solemn prayers to the watcher of the seas before embarking on their journeys across the untamed deep.

Maisie Wrote:Our spawning ponds are th' biggest in all o' Eorzea. In fact, you won't see nothin' like 'em nowhere else on Vylbrand or Aldenard. 'Tis why fishers from all across th' realm drag their dinghies t' Limsa Lominsa hoping to learn 'em our secrets. There be some religious types what says we're interfering wi' Llymlaen's work, but I ask, why would a "navigator" e'en mind?

O’adebh Whitemane Wrote:Me husband's a hand on a tradin' ship, carryin' Aleport bitter 'round to the far corners of the realm. Ev'ry day, I come out here and pray to the Navigator for his safe return. She's listened so far, so there don't seem no sense in stoppin'.

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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: A great example of this is the Sanctum of the Twelve in East Shroud.  There are small altars to each of the Twelve throughout the location.  However, we don't see any offerings of any sort.  Do Eorzeans leave offerings to their gods?  There are none to be seen.  Even at the Altar of Nophica in front of the Stillglade Fane, we don't see  any sort of offerings (though the altar itself is, interestingly to me, a large bowl).

Sanctum of the Twelve Lore
Sightseeing #12 The Sanctum of the Twelve Wrote:This sky-scraping ivory cathedral was built following the Age of Endless Frost - a dark period in which the realm was overrun with famine and disease - to serve as a place of refuge and respite for all who sought succor. Soon after, however, it fell into ruin and was all but forgotten... until the advent of the Seventh Umbral Era saw need for its rise once again.

Kain Wrote:It is a sight to gladden the heart, isn't it? A garden to exalt the Twelve is a daunting task indeed, and ever do I strive. But sometimes - sometimes, I simply enjoy the beauty we have wrought.

Maerwynn Wrote:I feel truly privileged to be involved in the restoration of the Sanctum. Returning each masterpiece to its original glory is like glimpsing into the mind of the artisan from whose hands it was wrought.

Unfortunately, the site is so ancient that no one seems to know what it was used for. I'd have to check, but though the cathedral was present in 1.0, I don't think it was ever mentioned by NPCs. Considering it was a place of refuge, perhaps offerings of food were given?

Stillglade Fane Lore
Biddy Wrote:Have you ever been in a place where you could hear yourself draw breath? We Gridanians like to say it is so quiet here that you can hear another's thoughts. So be careful what you think in that head of yours! Hehehe!
Hm? Unless I'm mistaken, you've become flustered all of a sudden.

Millith Ironheart Wrote:To our fortune, whithersoever we wander, Eorzea's beauty is but a stone's throw away. If I may quote from my journal...yes, this is the one. “Afore the Fane, beneath the two that are as one, Her divine cup runneth over with light aetherial. Such were the conjurer's words, and I would see as she saw.” I saw for myself before coming here, and I can assure you the conjurer spoke true. Indulge me─go there and look out upon the beauty before you. I would hear your thoughts.

Welcome back, Sounsyy. I trust you were as moved by the sight as I was? The great stone that adorns the entrance to Stillglade Fane is none other than the Skyserpent's Egg, cast down from the heavens by Nophica the Matron so long ago. And those mammoth tree trunks─remnants, no doubt, of a primeval forest. Whence did they come? Why do the two great arbors grow as one? This, I do not know─but what I do know is that the realm is replete with such beauty, if only we know where to look.

Unfortunately nothing here says what, if anything, they collect at Nophica's Alter. But considering, as you pointed out, it is a bowl shaped alter they must collect something. My theory - considering the number of farmers asking about their crops scattered around the Fane, that during the Harvest, Gridania's yield will be gathered there and blessed by the Matron.

EDIT! Just found what Nophica's Alter is used for:
1.0 Lodestone Wrote:Erected in the name of Nophica the Matron, goddess of bounty, this humble altar located in the north of Gridania is composed of a great wooden dish set atop a platform of sacred stones. When giving thanks to the goddess, praying for a good harvest, or holding festivals to honor the forest's elementals, the townspeople fill the altar with all manner of offerings—meats and grains, vegetables and fruits.

EDIT: oooo lookit what I just found:
Wispily Wiskered Woodworker Wrote:This festival has an interesting history. Originally, it had nothing to do with appeasing the elementals. It was simply a harvest festival—as unremarkable as that might sound.

Interestingly, I found that some Lominsans dump offerings of booze into the sea for Llymlaen:
Duchesnelt Wrote:When the seas roil, me brothers and I offer a cask of our finest rum to the Navigator. Though some say it be a waste, I'd far rather face the loss of grog than the wrath of a goddess. And it is far more civil than what the original settlers of Aleport used to offer. Twelve be good...

Trinne Wrote:Whether ye be buildin' the boats or sailin' 'em, any good man knows ye'd best be payin' yer obeisances t' Llymlaen, lest ye incur the Navigator's wrath.

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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: When you go to Ul'dah and visit the shrines to Nald'thal, there is a little more there - you actually have candles.  What isn't clear, at least to me, is whether those candles are there because it's freaking dark inside the shrines (they are in caves, after all!), or whether they are there as offerings or prayers or the like.

Here's what I was able to find!
Mamane Wrote:Arrzaneth Ossuary is a sacred structure where mortals may seek the favor of Thal, arbiter of the afterlife... for in death, we must all abide by Thal's final evaluation of our existence. Those deemed to have led lives of richer virtue are rewarded... with greater comfort for their eternal souls. I urge you to consider making a donation and enhancing your virtue, thus ensuring a golden paradise for your time in the realm beyond...

Yayaroku Wrote:Nald'thal, also known as the Traders, is the arbiter of the afterlife and commerce. He is the single manifestation of the twins Nald and Thal. Each oversees a separate but significant aspect of existence. Nald oversees the financial fortunes of the living, whereas Thal weighs the worth of the departed. Our order is devoted to the worship of the Traders. Here we share our wisdom with the faithful and teach them means to attain virtue in this life so they may find peace in the next.

Like the Traders, the Order of Nald'thal is possessed of two aspects. Milvaneth Sacrarium is the temple of Nald, and Arrzaneth Ossuary is the temple of Thal. Here at the Ossuary, we receive those who seek to secure their place at Thal's side. The virtuous are interred in Erralig's Burial Chamber, to ensure their safe passage into the realm of the dead. Men measure virtue in many ways, but Thal's scales weigh wealth most favorably. If you worry that you are yet wanting, you may make a donation at any time.

Bad to the Bone Wrote:It is said that the rich may atone for a lifetime of avidity by being buried in the lichyard of Saint Adama Landama, among the poor. The worse the conscience the finer the grave goods, for by law the objects belong to the poor once the body has turned to dust.

Better Shroud Than Sorry Wrote:It is said that burying the dead in a merchant's kurta ensures a better bargain in the hall of judgment. While none admit to this belief, more kurtas are sold than worn in the streets, for when it comes to the departed, it is those who love them best who nurse the most doubts about their virtue.

Death With Indignity Wrote:The lichyard of the Church of Saint Adama Landama is the final resting place for those who do not have the means to see their bodies interred in the sultanate's great stone mausoleums. We provide salvation in death for those who could not find the same in life. We ask no coin of those who seek our aid, and conduct our work solely with the alms provided us by the city-state's few philanthropists. Charity, however, is a rare virtue in Ul'dah, and our "visitors" are forced to forgo many of the luxuries, such as a proper headstone or an embalming, that the wealthy are granted upon their passing. This inequity can kindle flames of wrath which can ultimately prevent a soul from completing its journey to the realm of Thal. These souls must needs be cleansed of their anger so that they may find peace, and we at the lichyard seek adventurers to aid us in doing so.

Sinette Wrote:They are called the twins, Nald and Thal. Or at times, the Traders. All of reality is governed by their two aspects, and they hold a ceaseless vigil to ensure order is maintained.

Long ago, our city itself was split into two great sections, to mirror this truth. As a great teacher of mine once said, microcosm recapitulates macrocosm. We have since merged, and prospered for it. Perhaps the gods will someday mirror us.

Sightseeing #57 Thal's Respite Wrote:Overseer of wealth in the afterlife, proper obeisance to the Trader, Thal is required for those who wish to take belongings accumulated in this world to the hereafter. Thal's Respite is oft used by stout devotees of the Order of Nald'thal as a place of fasting and prayer, but its distance from Ul'dah prevents all but the most affluent from making the journey.

Sightseeing #58 Nald's Reflection Wrote:Overseer of wealth and commerce upon the corporeal plane, it is believed that through fervent worship of the Trader Nald, one will reap immeasurable fortune in one's living years. Prince and pauper alike once made pilgrimages to this remote place of prayer in search of prosperity... until, that is, the Milvaneth Sacrarium opened a new (toll-based) temple within Ul'dah.

Lettice Wrote:It is the thaumaturges of the Order of Nald'thal who write Ul'dah's laws. You had best not breach them, or you may see the "other side" they preach of sooner than you wish. Guard your tongue at all times, lest you mean to be chased out of the city as the sylphs once were. And be especially wary when speaking of the Garleans or the beast tribes. These are both sensitive subjects to the thaumaturges. It may not be too much to say that getting on with the thaumaturges is the secret to success here in Ul'dah, such is their influence. You'd do well to remember that.

Totono Wrote:East of here lies Milvaneth Sacrarium. Within its halls, the exaltations and praises of life are sung. The aspect of Nald governs this side of existence─passions and possessions. Many who worship there are the wealthy and privileged─those most grateful for what they have.

In contrast, the aspect of Thal governs the realm which begins where life ends. There, comfort is to be had for those who believe that the mortal coils holds no joy. These dark times find such souls ever more common.

Kyokyozo Wrote:Pilgrim, merchant, adventurer... Thal judges you not by who you are or where you hail from. Open your heart to His blessing, and you will find respite in His halls.

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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: How do the Twelve interact with each other?

[Image: 800px-The_Twelve_-_Relationships.png]

Dusty Tomes Wrote:Chapter 5 - Of Gods
The constancy and eternity of time derive from the pulse and breath of the Twelve. And by their divine will the brilliance of the Astral Eras which see man flourish and prosper, and the shadows of the Umbral Eras which see man falter and doubt, are visited upon him in equal, and neither the greatest good nor the greatest evil may escape their purview. Since the peace among the Twelve was broken and life was created to wage their wars, six cycles of the Eras have come to pass in keeping with the elemental order.

Moogle Myth Made Manifest Wrote:The legend holds that, in a time long forgotten, the moogles dwelled in the heavens alongside the Twelve. However, a great war broke out among the gods, and the celestial realm was laid to waste. In contrast, our own histories mention naught of any such conflict among the Twelve, and scholars were unanimous in branding the tale a product of the imagination. Of late, however, events have transpired that serve to cast doubt on that conclusion.


Llymlaen and Oschon seem to be at each other's throats quite frequently. They really do not like each other.
Moraby Flounder Wrote:Legend states that once a normal fish, the flounder was stepped upon by the Wanderer during one of His journeys, and left for dead. Upon finding the fish, the Navigator succeeded in breathing life back into the denizen of the deep, but could not restore it from its new flattened form.

Navigator's Brand Wrote:Cousin to the Navigator's dagger, fishers believe that this wavekin was the blade that Llymlaen threw at Oschon in Her fury at having Her naked form espied. The incident led to the latter taking Menphina as His lover.

And according to astrology lore, Rhalgr is jealous of Byregot:
Spire Wrote:In the third heaven rises an iron tower of spinning gears and taut springs constructed by the Builder himself. It is assailed without cease by the jealous Rhalgr, but the Destroyer’s mighty levinbolts only serve to power the spires’s clockwork soul. It is through the blessings of both creation and destruction that strength is granted to he who sees his stars rise under this sign.


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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: What exactly are the belief systems surrounding them?

Pretty much varies from deity to deity depending upon who you ask.
Llymlaen, Althyk, Nymeia, and Nophica all have creation myths attached to them. Halone holds the world together. Menphina had a hound to sic upon her enemies. Azeyma is worshiped by Lalafell and Miqo'te over the course of hundreds or thousands of years. Before Ul'dah and Sil'dih worshiped the Traders, they were born of a nation that worshiped Azeyma.

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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: If I have a cold, which deity is the one I'm most likely to pray to?

Good question, but this may also depend largely on where you are. Though this is a skewed example, based off of an epic slew of levequests I've perused, Ishgardians will pray to Halone for everything - from deliverance from sickness, to strength in battle, to getting a kill, to just general swearing. Halone is the catch-all goddess in Ishgard.

It could be similar for other nations, but without going around and talking to every NPC (which, I'm in the process of doing anyways) it'd be hard to say "oh well I saw this one NPC in Limsa curse Oschon every time they sneezed. Well, it could be a thing, but unfortunately, the way Eorzean religion works, is it could just be that that particular NPC only worships Oschon.

Ribbon of Remembrance Wrote:In the largest infirmary of Ishgard, there is an ancient wooden statue in one of the prayer rooms in the back. It is custom for family members to tie a ribbon somewhere on the statue to aid in their prayers for their kin to become well. With a strange sickness spreading throughout the darker parts of the city the statue has been looking more like a funeral shroud as of late and the ceaseless calls for ribbons seem to be more than the weavers can handle at the moment.

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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Is there a deity that represents mercy in all of its forms, and more fascinating to me, is it female?

Interestingly, this seems to be all Twelve - each in their own way. It's the reason that the Twelve are worshiped by Eorzeans, because the mythology goes that the Twelve loved them and were merciful, blessing them so that they could survive in this inhospitable and violent land of the gods.

Quote:Men are wont to suffer
And forget wherein they've sinned
Ne'er hearkening back on tragedies past
Lest the Twelve might humble them

Thralls are they to sadness
As were their bygone kin
With bonds of woe athwart their breasts
And that which dwells within

Yet loved they are withal
No thoughts to wrath portend
For men are treasured by the Twelve
Whose mercy knows no end

-Unknown

But Halone is specifically associated with being merciful. Furious and Merciful.
Spear Wrote:The Spear is the gate to the sixth heaven, where the Fury resides in a palace of ice carved by her own spear – ice formed of moonbeams collected by the Lover, Menphina. The Spear fills us not only with the power to overcome our enemies, but also the compassion that is necessary to grant those same enemies mercy.

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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: If Nophica is the patron deity of Gridania, do the people there pray to her when their family members die, or do they pray to Nald'thal?

So, I ran across this interesting translation from old Japanese lore text about the names of certain conjury spells and how they actually (in the Japanese version) relate to Nophica.

Reinheart Wrote:For Conjurer's action Sacred Prism and Shroud of Saints (JP uses megami no ____ megami meaning goddess) which goddess are they talking about??
For this question we received the following comment from the world setting team so here it is.

For which "Goddess" the two Conjurer abilities "Goddess's Compassion" and Goddess's Protection" (In JP names Megami No ______) the answer is Nophica

For spell type of conjurer evolved from Gridania (and previous Gelmora?) Either city had Nophica as their guardian and took very good care of them. For that reason these abilities uses word that points to Nophica (goddess)

Regarding talking to the spirits, the people living in the forest made connection with the spirits and in the process of building Gridania they spread the thinking of how spirits are beings that separated from Nophica; some NPC's talk about this as well.

There are scenes related spirits also uses Nophica's name and for that reason for people of Gridania Nophica and the spirits are something they can't just take apart?

Not related to main topic of the thread but since it's good opportunity here's some info on Nophica's well.

There are differences in the twelve depending on the region but basically have multi god religion (?) You normally would protect/keep in mind of the guardian related to your city but it doesn't mean they don't believe in other gods. (Some region looks down on other gods)

For a dry region such as Thalanan there was a land that had water and for that reason the people thought that the goddess of harvest Nophica built a well for us so we can grow crops! so that's the reason behind the naming for that region.

So, beyond the interesting side facts, what the last bit about Nophica's Well tells me is that the nations and people can worship outside their patron deities and associate specific deities with specific things. Life, fertility, bounty... these things are associated with Nophica. Which is why a well in the middle of the desert was named for the Matron.

I imagine that Thal is referenced across Eorzea when praying for the dead. Perhaps not as fervently or with as much focus upon monetary virtue as He is in Ul'dah. Llymlaen is associated with guidance. Halone, strength and mercy. etc.

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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: What are priests of Nophica called?  Does she even have clergy?  Yes, there are people standing around her altar outside of the Stillglade Fane, but they appear to be Conjurers.  Does this mean that Conjurers in service to the Fane are, by default, clergy of Nophica?  Or is something else going on here?

I don't think that Nophica, or most of the Twelve for that matter, have an organized religion like we see from the Orthodox Church of Halone. So Nophica likely has no clergy. The Conjurers are intermediaries between Man and Elemental Nature. And while the Elementals may have been formed of Nophica(?), the Conjurers seldom use the Matron's name explicitly when dealing with the commonfolk in matters of elemental concern. Which is interesting because the botanists are all about Nophica.

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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: What are priests of every deity called?  Or does each deity even have a priesthood?

The only deities that seem to have any form of organized religion are Halone, Nald'thal, Rhalgr and possibly Llymlaen. Nald'thal boasts the Order of Nald'thal who have priors, priests, prelates, etc. The Holy Halone has an Archbishop, Cardinals, Priests, Clergy, and Friars.

There are a number of saints as well, even outside of Ishgard. It's getting really late and this is a super extensive post as is, even without a ton of info in it, so I'm gonna come back to this point and post later. What I can say, is that these saints are also referred to in Eorzea as Guardians, and their saintly deeds are painted upon leveplates.

EDIT #1: I can't believe I forgot about Rhalgr! In Ala Mhigo, prior to its fall 20 years ago, worshipped the god of destruction, Rhalgr, under the Order of the Fists of Rhalgr, a religious cult of ascetic monks who believed that by training their minds and bodies to peak physical perfection, they might achieve sublimity.

Monks and the Fist of Rhalgr Wrote:The monks and the Fist of Rhalgr are interesting in the same way as any other organized relgion - a sad, pathetic, and humorous way. The brothers and sisters of the monkhood are those souls training in the service of Rhalgr, god of destruction among the Twelve. The Fist of Rhalgr is their order.

This barbaric cult traces its origins back several centuries to Ala Mhigo. The Fist teaches those foolish enough to listen that through rigorous training of the mind and body, and with constant invigoration and refinement, one can approach the sublimity of Rhalgr Himself. Such is their power of concentration that they are able to master the aether within their bodies and channel it in a manner that grants them immense destructive power. The monkhood insists on calling this internal essence "spiritual energy" or "life force" - but trust me when I say it is nothing other than aether.

Endowed with this brutish, unthinking gift for hitting things very hard, the entire cult has evolved into a sort of clergy with martial proclivities. This was no doubt a result of their main temple being located in Gyr Abania - a region plagued by warfare where knowing how to protect oneself is essential.

As the years passed, however, what began as a simple group of religious fanatics fighting to protect themselves grew into an ambitious organization of religious fanatics taking part in the region's power struggles. Those in power in Ala Mhigo grew wary of these war priests who proclaimed all their fights to be fought in the name of a god, and who employed deadly force without the slightest hesitation. And so, rather than make enemies of the monks, they decided instead to use them to their benefit.

Through affiliation with the Ala Mhigan royal family, the Fist of Rhalgr was incorporated into the nation's standing army. This not only granted the monks a great deal of power, but furnished them with all of the rights accorded protectors of the citizenry. And their political influence was still growing...

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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: What offerings are acceptable to each deity?  Do they even ask for/accept offerings?

Nald'thal values material wealth and more specifically, coin.
Llymlaen likes booze, apparently.
My theory is that Nophica's Alter accepts the bounty of the farmed earth.
Oschon enjoys fish. And no, not just stepping on them...

Wandering Sculpin Wrote:Legend states that this particular variety of sculpin is a favorite of Oschon, the Wanderer, and that the god will oft dine on this fish while on His journeys through the realm of man, for they are said to point Him in the direction of His next destination.

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(10-12-2015, 02:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: What rituals and rites does each deity require?  Do they require rituals and rites at all?

Trader Eel Wrote:This freshwater eel native to the rivers and lakes of Thanalan will often display the unique trait of swapping its mate with other nearby eels when spawning. Because of this characteristic, the wavekin is oft used in religious ceremonies involving Nald'thal.

Heart to Heart Wrote:An Ishgardian wedding is nigh, therefore I would ask you to harvest some giant artichokes for me from the floating isles. Why artichokes, you ask? Well, I shall forgive your ignorance just this once, outsider. There is a tale of a humble bride, who traveled with her knight lover to the battlefield because she did not want him to cease his cause in the name of Halone. It was there in the camp that she shirked a flowery bouquet, commenting the flowers were far too decadent and instead took an artichoke in hand. She admired its resilient and spiked exterior that enveloped the plant's soft, pure heart, and she remarked the beauty of Halone was indeed similar to this plant, and thus should be her bouquet. Many Ishgardian brides are so inspired by the tale that there are often requests of the church to place the thistles near the aisles to represent a humble but fiercly devoted deliverence to the Fury.



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Additional Lore I Dug Up on the Twelve
Okay, I can already tell this is going to wind up being a post I return to several times over the next few weeks/months and keep adding stuff to as I find it. So check back! I'm really sorry I couldn't find answers to all of your questions, but Thal's Balls, there's a lot of stuff to sift through. The number of tabs I had to open on my laptop...

Anywhoozles, this is some additional, miscellaneous info I was able to dig up on the Twelve that didn't necessarily fit any of the questions or categories above. Like I said, more will likely get added later when it isn't super late at night and I don't have work in the morning.


Show Content

-Menphina Lore
-Azeyma Lore


/staggers
Hope this helped... ^^;;;;;
/passes out.

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - LiadansWhisper - 10-13-2015

Sounsyy...

Pls marry me.  HeartBlush

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - Smagon - 10-13-2015

So the twelve are only worshipped in Eorzea, correct? I remember that the Au Ra have their own gods and the Domans have their notShinto. Does this mean that every other region has their own different faith system?

RE: Religious texts and their influence in Eorzea - LiadansWhisper - 10-13-2015

(10-13-2015, 02:18 PM)Smagon Wrote: So the twelve are only worshipped in Eorzea, correct? I remember that the Au Ra have their own gods and the Domans have their notShinto. Does this mean that every other region has their own different faith system?

All of the stuff we do know about the Twelve is focused around Eorzea, so it could very well be that they are a regional set of deities.  But, it's also possible that they have analogues in other cultures that we simply haven't encountered (not unlike Greek and Roman deities of antiquity).

It's likely that most regions have their own form of belief due to isolation and other pressures.  However, Garlemald appears to be conducting a concerted effort to rid populations of their beliefs.