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+--- Thread: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions (/showthread.php?tid=14632)
Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Solenne - 12-16-2015
I'm working on the backstory for a new alt, Tatsu Kaisuri, and could use a bit of input.Â
First question: Is is possible that a Raen character could have grown up in a fishing village on a small island off the coast of Othard? I know that the clan description mentions that they come from deep valleys within a mountainous region, but it also states that their ancestors were nomads. Is it really likely that a nomadic people would all suddenly decide to settle within the same spot? I'm wondering if I can claim that Tatsu's village was one of a number of pocket settlements established by Raen who gave up their nomadic lifestyle at a later date than most of their kin.
The second and more dicey question: is there any way that a highly intelligent individual could stumble upon a sort of pseudo-Arcanism through experimentation? I'm not saying my character reinvented Arcanism or anything remotely close to that. But being a bored, clever, and aetherically-sensitive teen stuck on a tiny island, she would have been eager to find a way to enhance any latent magical abilities she possessed. Through trial and error, she might even have learned a few basic formulae that produced encouraging results. She has a talent for finding patterns and a good head for mathematics. I'm not saying I want her to have become a powerful or even particularly competent Arcanist without any formal education. I merely wonder if it's possible that she could have had a somewhat fuzzy understanding of certain principles of arcane geometry by the time she reached Eorzea. It would, if nothing else, explain why she ended up pursuing Arcanism after settling in La Noscea.
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Verilys - 12-16-2015
Though I'm not an expert on Othard and the like, I think the answers to your questions are both: Probably yes. I don't think we have enough geographical evidence of Othard to cause any fuss with the fishing village/island idea.
As for the second question...
The Arcanistry in particular may take on some 'primitive' forms as a result of her isolated and limited access. I don't believe there's much in the way of particularly detailed explanations for how Arcanists do what they do. Symbols, geometries, equations, (and in the case of Carbuncle) gemstones -- these being used to shape the aether and possibly amplifying based on some factors. There are some details such as the Arcanists' Guild coming about with Merlwyb Bloefhiswyn becoming admiral -- so your character will likely not be practicing the precise techniques taught there, though the practice in general (or, at least, its origins) are much, much older.
The only detailed explanation for geometries I've found thus far in-game was from the Alchemist quest line:
Arcanist NPC from http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/The_Arcanist's_Tome Wrote:For an arcanist to weave his spells, he must conjure in his mind the image of distinct mystical diagrams known as arcane geometries. These geometries are inscribed upon the pages of a grimoire, such as the one you constructed at my request.
The most important aspect of any grimoire is the quality of the ink used to illustrate its pages. Geometries drawn with ink that is especially conducive to the flow of aether allow the arcanist to more effectively channel his magical strength.
Thus when one is in need of a new grimoire, one must turn to an expert in the making of this liquid gold -- an alchemist. And, Thaliak be praised, I was blessed with the attentions of a true artist.
Alternate ideas for Arcanist forms could be those rooted in symbolism -- perhaps your character drew something with some special ink and it was able to do something magical. For a more mathematical approach, your character could perhaps have created fractals -- trace elements in the ink proved conducive to the aether and the underlying mathematical concepts of the fractals proved to be able to mimic the equations/geometries of those taught in Limsa Lominsa.
Hope that provides some inspiration, at least
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Vyce - 12-16-2015
I can't find it anymore but Sounssy has a comprehensive post on Arcanima.
*summons Primal Sounssy*
Basically, Arcanima is VERY VERY precise. The likelihood of stumbling upon a viable spell by chance is slim to none. The process of invention is likely many years of trial an error. Adjust this angle, shorten this line, close this circle but leave this one open. Fine tuning until it's perfect. Most spells used today were developed centuries ago or are based on Allagan and Nymean magical sciences.
I would say the thinking power required for creating new and well-functioning arcanima is the equivalent of the thinking power of the mathematicians who came up with modern algebra and sit around all day figuring out the world's unsolved equations.
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Verilys - 12-16-2015
(12-16-2015, 09:37 AM)Vyce Wrote: I can't find it anymore but Sounssy has a comprehensive post on Arcanima.
*summons Primal Sounssy*
Basically, Arcanima is VERY VERY precise. The likelihood of stumbling upon a viable spell by chance is slim to none. The process of invention is likely many years of trial an error. Adjust this angle, shorten this line, close this circle but leave this one open. Fine tuning until it's perfect. Most spells used today were developed centuries ago or are based on Allagan and Nymean magical sciences.
I would say the thinking power required for creating new and well-functioning arcanima is the equivalent of the thinking power of the mathematicians who came up with modern algebra and sit around all day figuring out the world's unsolved equations.
Sounds good, but that kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinda sounds more like supposition than anything particularly conclusive:
- You say it's 'VERY VERY' precise. How precise is that?
- What are the exact angles that we're talking about?
- What are the lines and their associated length?
- What is a geometry?
- What differentiates a 'Ruin' spell from a 'Bio' spell?
- How are Arcanists able to cast cross-class skills?
- Can they cast cross-class skills lore-wise?
It'd be really nice if there was some sort of quick guide to it all that was used as inspiration for the class, such as what Brandon Sanderson provided as a supplement for 'The Rithmatist'. (An excerpt of which can be found here)
As it stands, I don't think we can go into detail about the likelihoods, let alone the amount of research it would take for any specific variety of spell. We can make broad estimations based on common sense. The derived method of spellcasting would not be near so effective as those taught with formal education. It also makes sense that a teenager without education would therefore not have an advanced system in place for spellslinging. Rather than liken it to coming up with modern algebra, I'd liken it more to Gauss coming up with the equation for summation at age eight.
But most importantly, as Solenne says, it's not so much becoming a competent arcanist, as much as finding some vague magical responses and perhaps even simple cantrips from a series of experiments. And I think that's more than reasonable.
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Vyce - 12-16-2015
(12-16-2015, 10:06 AM)Verilys Wrote:I'm not really sure of the point of these bullets since they ask questions mostly answered, but I'll address them one by one:(12-16-2015, 09:37 AM)Vyce Wrote: I can't find it anymore but Sounssy has a comprehensive post on Arcanima.
*summons Primal Sounssy*
Basically, Arcanima is VERY VERY precise. The likelihood of stumbling upon a viable spell by chance is slim to none. The process of invention is likely many years of trial an error. Adjust this angle, shorten this line, close this circle but leave this one open. Fine tuning until it's perfect. Most spells used today were developed centuries ago or are based on Allagan and Nymean magical sciences.
I would say the thinking power required for creating new and well-functioning arcanima is the equivalent of the thinking power of the mathematicians who came up with modern algebra and sit around all day figuring out the world's unsolved equations.
Sounds good, but that kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinda sounds more like supposition than anything particularly conclusive:
- You say it's 'VERY VERY' precise. How precise is that?
- What are the exact angles that we're talking about?
- What are the lines and their associated length?
- What is a geometry?
- What differentiates a 'Ruin' spell from a 'Bio' spell?
- How are Arcanists able to cast cross-class skills?
- Can they cast cross-class skills lore-wise?
It'd be really nice if there was some sort of quick guide to it all that was used as inspiration for the class, such as what Brandon Sanderson provided as a supplement for 'The Rithmatist'. (An excerpt of which can be found here)
As it stands, I don't think we can go into detail about the likelihoods, let alone the amount of research it would take for any specific variety of spell. Â We can make broad estimations based on common sense. The derived method of spellcasting would not be near so effective as those taught with formal education. It also makes sense that a teenager without education would therefore not have an advanced system in place for spellslinging. Rather than liken it to coming up with modern algebra, I'd liken it more to Gauss coming up with the equation for summation at age eight.
But most importantly, as Solenne says, it's not so much becoming a competent arcanist, as much as finding some vague magical responses and perhaps even simple cantrips from a series of experiments. And I think that's more than reasonable.
[*]You say it's 'VERY VERY' precise. How precise is that?
[*]Very very. As precise as math can be, which is as precise as it can be with a margin of error. If the geometry isn't right, you fuck up.
[*]What are the exact angles that we're talking about?
[*]What are the lines and their associated length?
[*]We are not given the dimensions of each spell. We are only told the concept. This is a question for Enix.
[*]What is a geometry?
[*]As explained, a geometry is the specific way in which a spell is transcribed.
Aka sigils and seals and signs made by lines and shapes with specific dimension which we are not given.
[*]What differentiates a 'Ruin' spell from a 'Bio' spell?
[*]The geometry. That's like the difference between a star and a circle. The geometry of Bio is recognized.
[*]How are Arcanists able to cast cross-class skills?
[*]The same way anyone casts cross class skills. Those skills are assumed to be possible with multiple types of foci. The ink in an Arcanist's tome allows them to channel aether, which can be used to cast some general spells. It is likely however that the potency is a little reduced, much like how some classes can use a combo skill, but without the opening ability, the combo cant trigger and the skill comes out weaker.
[*]Can they cast cross-class skills lore-wise?
[*]Part of becoming good at Arcanima is studying similar magics. An Arcanist interested in summoning, or offensive magics will study some basic thaumaturgy. An Arcanist interested in medicine and healing might attempt to study some conjury. They of course cannot cast the entire repertoire of those classes because they possess neither the proper foci nor the training to handle all of those skills. With that said, it isn't impossible to study multiple magics, in which case you could just carry a scepter and a tome.
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Verilys - 12-16-2015
Oh, the bullet points are mostly to highlight that we don't know the answers to the questions. At least, we don't know them to the degree that's necessary for an aspiring Arcanist to know -- if we did, we could draw a Ruin spell and it'd be the same regardless of our individual interpretations.
But that's really more an aside.
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Solenne - 12-16-2015
It sounds like I might need to abandon the idea that her magical experiments were at all related to Arcanism. It's quite possible that sigil-based magic exists as a separate art in Othard, and she might have had a bit of informal training in that. I'm starting to lean toward the idea that her mathematical skill is intuitive anyway, such that she's likely to give her instructors a headache once she does start training at the Arcanist Guild. She'd be rather like a savant who can come up with a correct answer to a mathematical problem without necessarily being able to show their work, which can be impressive, but might become a stumbling block to more advanced learning.
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Vyce - 12-16-2015
Arcanima should be about the same even in Doma, but perhaps with different teaching methods. The sigils are still the same. With that said,
NOTHING
is stopping her from attempting to come up with new spells. I had one on an old character used for scrying in round pools of water with a crystal. He came across an old spell for dousing lost belongings and began working on changing the geometries until it finally did what he wanted after months of trying.
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Moonlit - 12-16-2015
Though Raen moreso come from Doma -- an island off the shore of Othard -- it is plausible (especially considering some Xaela tribe descriptions) that one would settle on the coast of Othard (in a village or otherwise). There's no reason that this isn't a thing. I have a doman lore blog that you can find here:Â http://doma-ffxiv.tumblr.com/tagged/lore
As others have pointed out, Arcanima is fairly precise, and you need quite the mind to grasp it. However, it was created by a bunch of math nerds sitting around a table in the South Seas. We know that Doma has magic, we know that there are pretty much scholars everywhere, there's no reason that Arcanists and the Arcane couldn't have been in Doma/Othard, too.Â
The likelihood of "discovering" something similar? Eh. People would already likely know it as Arcanima, it might even be trained there, so it's more plausible she was taught by just another Arcanist in Othard.Â
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Solenne - 12-16-2015
(12-16-2015, 02:54 PM)Moonlit Wrote: Though Raen moreso come from Doma -- an island off the shore of Othard -- it is plausible (especially considering some Xaela tribe descriptions) that one would settle on the coast of Othard (in a village or otherwise). There's no reason that this isn't a thing.Â
Slight side note - there's no reason to believe that Doma is landlocked, correct? In fact, I'm pretty sure it has a coastline, and Tatsu's island would be somewhere just off of it. I'm not suggesting that she's from another far-flung area of Othard.
As for the other thing, it sounds like I'll just have to say she received some mentoring from a Doman practitioner of Arcanism. That would probably be easiest and raise the fewest eyebrows. I just didn't realize it was practiced overseas.
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Moonlit - 12-16-2015
(12-16-2015, 03:53 PM)Solenne Wrote:(12-16-2015, 02:54 PM)Moonlit Wrote: Though Raen moreso come from Doma -- an island off the shore of Othard -- it is plausible (especially considering some Xaela tribe descriptions) that one would settle on the coast of Othard (in a village or otherwise). There's no reason that this isn't a thing.Â
Slight side note - there's no reason to believe that Doma is landlocked, correct? In fact, I'm pretty sure it has a coastline, and Tatsu's island would be somewhere just off of it. I'm not suggesting that she's from another far-flung area of Othard.
Nope, there's no reason at all! There are Raen and Domans who have come from ships. Similar, the vessels that arrived from the Far East are believed Doman.Â
Doma = Island off the coast of Othard.
Othard = Continent.Â
Both = Have ships / trading available.
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Solenne - 12-16-2015
(12-16-2015, 04:03 PM)Moonlit Wrote:(12-16-2015, 03:53 PM)Solenne Wrote:(12-16-2015, 02:54 PM)Moonlit Wrote: Though Raen moreso come from Doma -- an island off the shore of Othard -- it is plausible (especially considering some Xaela tribe descriptions) that one would settle on the coast of Othard (in a village or otherwise). There's no reason that this isn't a thing.Â
Slight side note - there's no reason to believe that Doma is landlocked, correct? In fact, I'm pretty sure it has a coastline, and Tatsu's island would be somewhere just off of it. I'm not suggesting that she's from another far-flung area of Othard.
Nope, there's no reason at all! There are Raen and Domans who have come from ships. Similar, the vessels that arrived from the Far East are believed Doman.Â
Doma = Island off the coast of Othard.
Othard = Continent.Â
Both = Have ships / trading available.
This is the first time I've heard of Doma being an island. I've found sources that says it's "on the shores of Othard," which makes me think it's actually a coastal state. Where does it say Doma is an island?
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Sounsyy - 12-17-2015
(12-16-2015, 05:40 AM)Solenne Wrote: First question: Is is possible that a Raen character could have grown up in a fishing village on a small island off the coast of Othard? I know that the clan description mentions that they come from deep valleys within a mountainous region, but it also states that their ancestors were nomads.
The answer is yes, but before I go more detailed, I feel as if I should discuss the known geography of Othard. Othard has four distinct regions: a mountainous north and northeast, eastern coastlines, southern deserts, and western steppes. The Raen clan are said to inhabit the valleys of Othard's mountainous eastern coastlines. The Raen used to be a large nomadic tribe, similar to the Xaela, however, they cast aside their nomadic tribal ways and took to living in solitude and peace. I highly doubt they all fit into one valley, and in fact, the lore quote says valleys, meaning there were mountains and entire ranges that might separate the villages. So, these Raen could very easily have spread out across Othard's entire eastern border. From Relic lore, we know that there are islands off Othard's eastern coast. So yes, entirely possible for there to be a small island off Othard's coast where a family or village of Raen live.
(12-16-2015, 05:40 AM)Solenne Wrote: The second and more dicey question: is there any way that a highly intelligent individual could stumble upon a sort of pseudo-Arcanism through experimentation?
Why not stumble upon actual Arcanism? Sure, modern Arcanima originated in the South Seas but has become the backbone of Limsa Lominsan learning and trade. Limsa and Othard, including Doma, have been in good trade relations for many many years. Even after the Garlean Empire conquered Othard in its entirety 25~ years ago, trade routes remained open. Unless this island is so remote that it encounters no foreigners or tales from foreign merchants, then it's conceivable to have your character been at least exposed to Eorzean Arcanima. Maybe after those merchants left she continued trying to teach herself how to develop the magic, eventually able to recreate certain glyphs and spells. Maybe she had her own Far Eastern glyphs modified into the Arcanima.
S'gnayak Wrote:Greetings, my lady. I bring exotic goods from lands far to the east.
Lilina Wrote:I've been assigned to a small trading vessel hailing from Garlemald which is due to arrive in less than five bells. Until then, I must review assessor logs pertaining to goods recently confiscated from imperial soil. We would not have any of their unauthorized technologies falling into the hands of unscrupulous individuals... and this city has more than its share of those.
As for specific Arcanima lore, I'd direct you here. It's brief but covers the essentials.
-Arcanima Lore
(12-16-2015, 07:16 PM)Solenne Wrote: This is the first time I've heard of Doma being an island. I've found sources that says it's "on the shores of Othard," which makes me think it's actually a coastal state. Where does it say Doma is an island?
Through the Maelstrom Lodestone Wrote:Hailing from the nation of Doma on the shores of Othard, Yugiri and her countrymen have fled their war-torn home and the oppression of Garlean rule in search of refuge. With supplies and hopes for survival dwindling, Yugiri seeks council with Eorzea's leaders, that they too may call this land their home.
Not an island, as far as I'm aware.
Hope this helps! ^^ Lemme know if you have more lore questions!
RE: Raen Lore and Arcanism Questions - Solenne - 12-17-2015
As always, Sounsyy, you are a precious gift. Thank you! And thanks to everyone else for their input. I think I have a pretty good idea of how to shape Tatsu's backstory now.