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Summoner Thoughts? - Silane - 02-25-2016
Not sure if this is in the right spot but Mavis bugged me to make this threat cause she had to go for the day.
Is it plausible for a summoner to absorb their egi and gain abilities of it?Â
Also would it be strange to see Egis of the other primals that summoners cannot summon currently (Like how Ramuh and Levi have had Egis in the game files but not actually summonable for a really long time)Â
She may likely add onto the thread question later on when she can, just thought I'd try and help.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Sounsyy - 02-25-2016
Most everything we know about summoners to date can be found in this compilation of SMN lore.
We will likely not see Ramuh or Leviathan egis for a long time, if ever. The given lore reason for this is that to summon an egi you have to split your own aether in two. For these more powerful primals such as Leviathan or Ramuh, the amount of aether needed to summon their egi is too great for a mortal mage to handle, thus the Austerity fails. In order to bypass this limitation, ancient Allagan summoners would use a technique called "Trance" where the summoner would infuse themselves with the essence of the intended primal and channel its energies through them. So its not so much absorbing their egi as it is bypassing summoning the egi and just using its essence in your own magicks.
In game, this is only done with Bahamut for Dreadwyrm Trance, but there's absolutely nothing that says an RPer couldn't utilize Trance to unlock Whorl Trance or Levin Trance.
Hope this helps! ^^
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Killerwing - 02-25-2016
Some people actually even RP as if they were using an Egi of another primal. I know at least one person that uses a Leviathan-Egi, and my character has often made use of other primals to perform Trance.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Jana - 02-25-2016
To bounce off of Sounsyy's post, it's not that Ramuh and Leviathan are intrinsically more powerful. It's that when you fight them in the MSQ, they've been summoned to be more powerful (Level 50, as opposed to levels 20/35/45 for Ifrit/Titan/Garuda) through the use of both more crystals (for Hard) and implied beastman sacrifices (for Extreme).
Rowena Wrote:Greetin's, adventurer. So, you're the one as hopes to trade some primal curiosities, are you? Urianger's guaranteed their authenticity, so why don't you let ol' Rowena here have a look at these ritual objects o' yours?
Hmmm, carved from beastman bones, just like he described... Well, I'd be lyin' if I said these trinkets didn't make my skin crawl like a diremite in my undergarments.
In case you misunderstand, that's an expression o' high praise, lass. My customers'll be guttin' each other in the streets for a chance to purchase your trophies! Show them to Laraina, my acquisitions officer, and she'll walk you through the transaction.
In the case of players summoning Egi of these Primals, it would be because they were present for a weaker summoning of them in the past; we know Leviathan was summoned at least once (I think it might've been twice?) between the time of the Calamity and the start of the 2.0 MSQ. We haven't heard about when Ramuh was summoned before the MSQ fight, but there's enough knowledge of him and there are enough of his Touched flying around that there's a good chance the same could be the case.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Shoshopu - 02-25-2016
(02-25-2016, 05:09 PM)Silane Wrote: (Like how Ramuh and Levi have had Egis in the game files but not actually summonable for a really long time)Â
??!????
(02-25-2016, 07:24 PM)Killerwing Wrote: Some people actually even RP as if they were using an Egi of another primal. I know at least one person that uses a Leviathan-Egi, and my character has often made use of other primals to perform Trance.
o/ *raises hand*
The way we played it, my FC assisted the Maelstrom with one of the occasional Leviathan-summonings. They had a long story arc leading up to it, but I just happened to join the FC right before the fight itself, so it was the first thing I did with them. Very convenient for me since I wanted Shoshopu to eventually become a summoner, but I hadn't decided which one she was going to start with at that point.
And thank you, Sounsyy, the game didn't actually explain very well why the austerities didn't work at all. I kinda thought it was total BS, made-up-at-the-last-minute excuse to not introduce new egis after the dev team realized the design space was too limited to add more.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Kellach Woods - 02-25-2016
Doesn't explain Shiva, Bismark, Ravana or KotR to be perfectly frank...
Phoenix Trance would be dope too.
It's also possible that even Trance is not enough for Warring Triad onwards.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Momo - 02-26-2016
It would be in the best interest of the person playing to only use the Trances and Egis of Primals that more than the WoL themselves, have access to. Â Phoenix is basically off limits, it's aether lost in the aether at the fall of Bahamut most likely. Shiva is another hard one, though I think that if you made your way to Akh Afah Amphitheater and did some attuning you may be able to find Shiva in there somewhere if you are already a SMN. Â Levi and Ramuh would be a bit easier, as a trance Ramuh would be reasonable, Levi an Egi or a trance, we only have information on why the former (Ramuh) has no Egi, whereas Levi has just never been done before.
The absorption of your Egi basically happens each time you revoke them. Â They are, as Souns stated, a split of your aether using the "taint" or absorbed aether of the particular primal you are summoning to give them form, which [the taint] falls over the area of their defeat, and lingers for some time after, usually believed to be in accordance with how strong said Primal was. Â This being considered, the use of their powers by absorbing them? Â I suppose you could, it would be better to maybe make your spells as a Thaumaturge cross-class a bit stronger maybe? Â The Trances seemed to be created to harness the residual aether which a very strong primal has left to be absorbed by the summoner, and so gives the summoner some iota of their abilities, so having the power of Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan within you may not actually give you the ability to use their powers beyond summoning an Egi, only because we know that they weren't nearly as strong as say Bahamut, and apparently not as strong as Ramuh, because we think of something Jana mentioned in terms of energy scales.
I hope some of the things shared here helped, the link Sounsyy both supplied and filled, is an invaluable collection information that we know up to now, and a good read of it could jog some ideas or help you set a guideline of how you want things to work for your character. Â Good luck!
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Jana - 02-26-2016
(02-26-2016, 03:01 PM)Momo Wrote: The Trances seemed to be created to harness the residual aether which a very strong primal has left to be absorbed by the summoner, and so gives the summoner some iota of their abilities, so having the power of Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan within you may not actually give you the ability to use their powers beyond summoning an Egi, only because we know that they weren't nearly as strong as say Bahamut, and apparently not as strong as Ramuh, because we think of something Jana mentioned in terms of energy scales.
I mentioned Ifrit/Titan/Garuda as being weaker but it's only because they were summoned normally in the MSQ, which is where level-locked job quest Egis come from. If your character was ICly involved in a Hard or Extreme fight against them, there's no reason you couldn't use Inferno/Molten/Vortex Trance or something... At least in theory.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Killerwing - 02-26-2016
(02-26-2016, 07:53 PM)Jana Wrote:(02-26-2016, 03:01 PM)Momo Wrote: The Trances seemed to be created to harness the residual aether which a very strong primal has left to be absorbed by the summoner, and so gives the summoner some iota of their abilities, so having the power of Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan within you may not actually give you the ability to use their powers beyond summoning an Egi, only because we know that they weren't nearly as strong as say Bahamut, and apparently not as strong as Ramuh, because we think of something Jana mentioned in terms of energy scales.
I mentioned Ifrit/Titan/Garuda as being weaker but it's only because they were summoned normally in the MSQ, which is where level-locked job quest Egis come from. If your character was ICly involved in a Hard or Extreme fight against them, there's no reason you couldn't use Inferno/Molten/Vortex Trance or something... At least in theory.
Well the main reason why the WoL isn't using a Trance from another primal is mainly that we were given access a Trance linked to BAHAMUT, who is way stronger than the other normal primals.
With the power of the Dreadwyrm Trance, does it really makes it worth trying to use Trance with another primal? Well, it might give a certain 'variety', but in sheer power, the Dreadwyrm Trance is most likely the strongest.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Mavis - 03-02-2016
Thank all of you for your replies (damn I am slow. Been thinking a lot.)Â
From what I have been reading it seems that the trance could be used as an alternative way toward the actual egi-summoning (with a healthy dose of own imagination.) The reason the dreadwyrm trance is needed is because Bahamut is way too strong than that anyone could make an egi out of his essence. I believe the reason why the trance is so short, only for deathflare (which is of course still amazing, like any master spark-like spell), one could maybe see that as another limitation? The trance only able to be upheld for so short a time because of the strength of the original primal?
If that were the case, it'd be possible to hold a trance for a "weaker" primal like Ifrit or the other pals for longer?Â
I may be getting way too anime with this, but the idea of using a trance to add some nifty asthetic additions on the character for the duration of the trance (garuda wings anyone?).
This then leads me to the one thing I have mainly been having gripes with.Â
Since the base of a summoner is always the arcanist, one will always use arcanist spells. Normally not a problem, however the sheer myriad of possibilities is daunting. The decay/toxin/general DoT we see ingame are not really my characters style. I have been running in circles for the last couple of days about it, from ideas of using summoned swords as projectiles, Aether-bolts for the lack of a better term, more something graspable, decisive. I am less in the dark of what I could do, but more about what people would be willing to accept.Â
And the last part, linking those two together would be the simple question of if such a trance could be shown by influencing the normal spells she casts (normal bolts of aether become fire-aspected or wind aspected, so on and so forth)
I apologize if I made anyone cringe, been getting a little out of the ordinary by working on this. Thanks for reading and I am looking forward to any responses.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Jana - 03-02-2016
I see the ACN spells as building blocks for SMN, since some of the SMN-exclusive abilities Y'mitra gets off of tomestones for you like Tri-Disaster and Fester are directly meant to utilize them. But there are also abilities like Painflare and the Ruin spells you could choose to "focus" on.
Though I have to be honest here, ICly and OOCly I'd have to call shenanigans on someone casting flaming swords with a tome.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - AekiraSwyfte - 03-03-2016
(03-02-2016, 03:00 PM)Mavis Wrote: Since the base of a summoner is always the arcanist, one will always use arcanist spells. Normally not a problem, however the sheer myriad of possibilities is daunting. The decay/toxin/general DoT we see ingame are not really my characters style. I have been running in circles for the last couple of days about it, from ideas of using summoned swords as projectiles, Aether-bolts for the lack of a better term, more something graspable, decisive. I am less in the dark of what I could do, but more about what people would be willing to accept.ÂIf even beginning arcanists can summon a "living" creature from aether with relative ease, I don't see why it wouldn't be plausible to summon weapons with the right spells. My arcanist utilizes a spell that allows him to summon tangible scythes, and I've yet to run into another player who's had a problem with it. Aspecting arcane spells with the elements seems... less so, since that's so much more of a conjurer/thaumaturge thing.Â
Ultimately, reactions to whatever you're gonna do, whether or not they're lore-abiding or lore-bending or even breaking, are gonna vary pretty well from RPer to RPer.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Shoshopu - 03-03-2016
As Jana pointed out, Summoner does have some abilities Arcanist doesn't, like Fester and Painflare. This is sort of the direction Shoshopu has gone with offensive spells from herself, as she can Fester her "contagion magicks" and cast Ruin III, but the primary direction she has gone in is one of investing a lot into her familiars. Most of her geometries focus around building more robust or specialized versions of carbuncles and -egis, and temporarily empowering them with extra doses of aether. They can perform a number of abilities outside of the..... four or so they have in the ingame mechanics. She's also been experimenting with augmenting them, upon their initial summoning, with additional sources of aether outside of her own (i.e. crystals). If I could get her into IC conjury somehow I think things could get pretty interesting with this route.
But in short, her special flavor of summoning was derived from her own interests and improvisations from lack of formal teaching or text, that invests a lot of aether into her familiars to make them more effective on their own while she controls them remotely from a safe distance.
Essentially she's more akin a FFXI summoner, in that her pets do most of the work, while the spells she casts on her own are secondary.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Kellach Woods - 03-06-2016
(02-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: For these more powerful primals such as Leviathan or Ramuh, the amount of aether needed to summon their egi is too great for a mortal mage to handle, thus the Austerity fails.
Hold up hold up hold up...
BLM use the aether of the land to augment their own (50-60 deals with the consequences of drawing too much). Any lore-related restrictions that SMNs could not do that (and then horrible consequences would happen - naturally)?
Obviously mechanically it can't happen.
RE: Summoner Thoughts? - Sounsyy - 03-06-2016
(03-06-2016, 08:42 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(02-25-2016, 05:50 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: For these more powerful primals such as Leviathan or Ramuh, the amount of aether needed to summon their egi is too great for a mortal mage to handle, thus the Austerity fails.
Hold up hold up hold up...
BLM use the aether of the land to augment their own (50-60 deals with the consequences of drawing too much). Any lore-related restrictions that SMNs could not do that (and then horrible consequences would happen - naturally)?
Obviously mechanically it can't happen.
I mean... theoretically speaking... I guess it could work? But at that point, wouldn't you just be resummoning an actual primal, albeit an incredibly weak one? If you're using the planet's aether and the idea of a primal you've already slain, you'd just recreate a primal that was tethered to the land's aether like a normal primal. I think the point of the egi is that it's form is tied to your aether and because the egi is created by splitting your soul between the two, it is bound and controlled by you, because in a sense... the egi is you, just the tainted you.
Fernehalwes Wrote:Basically, every being is made up of aether. It’s your own aether, and that is you. By taking your aether and splitting it, you create an egi, but you still have yourself. The thing is, you’re maintaining both of these at the same time, which is why summoners can only do this with one egi at a time. If you split yourself too much, your grip on yourself is gone and you fade back into the Lifestream. That’s not to say there aren’t certain beings in the world that have a larger pool of aether; some beings can split into multiple egi, while maintaining that balance, before they die.
Y'mhitra Wrote:When you summon an avatar, you draw upon your body's reservoir of aether to grant life and form to what is known as an arcane entity─that much we already knew. I had, however, overlooked the simple fact that our aetheric reserves are finite─thus the magnitude of egi that you are able to summon is limited by the extent of your own life force. Simply put, if the egi is too powerful, then the summoning fails...
Could things be different if Shatotto's discovery of external aetherial manipulation had been discovered 2000~3000 years before? Perhaps. But good lord can you imagine if you had hundreds of summoners "splitting" Hydaelyn's aether to create hyper-powerful primals to fight eikons?