Dragoon lore questions - Printable Version

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Dragoon lore questions - Printable Version

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Dragoon lore questions - kyioku - 06-24-2016

I have an idea for a character but I would like to make sure that it makes sense without stretching a lot. My knowledge on drg lore is poor to say the least, so bear with me:

1) I know that there are more than 3 dragoons but how do they all function? Are they some sort of organization? Do they actually limit their actions to Ishgard and surrounding regions only?
2) Can you just quit being a dragoon? Is there anything stopping you from dropping this fancy armor and leaving your life and title behind?
3) Is there any reason other than Dragonsong War that dragooning is, I think, exclusively an ishgardian style of combat?

Thanks in advance for all the help!

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Warren Castille - 06-24-2016

In order:

1) Dragoons serve Ishgard as an elite dragon-killing unit. One becomes a part of the faction by presenting a dragon scale of a dragon they killed or helped to kill and Ishgard acknowledging them.

At the tippy-top of the chain is the Azure Dragoon, and he's basically a once-per-generation Chosen One.

2) There does not appear to be anything that would stop you from being a dragoon if you chose to quit, but we don't know how it would actually work at this juncture.

3) The Dragonsong War lasted over a thousand years, so it's safe to assume that Dragoons came into existence purely as a weapon during that time. The first Azure Dragoon became one by tearing out the eye of a powerful dragon, so the war had already begun before he existed. I don't recall if he was credited as a dragoon prior to that, I believe he was "just" a soldier.

Being a Dragoon and having access to their jumpy powers and dragon-killing training is definitely Ishgardian by design, but the Wood Wailers in Gridania also make proficient use of lances.

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Sylastair - 06-24-2016

(06-24-2016, 02:38 PM)kyioku Wrote: 2) Can you just quit being a dragoon? Is there anything stopping you from dropping this fancy armor and leaving your life and title behind?

I can't think of any discussions of deserters off the top of my head (though I do think there are several interactions adressing such within Coerthas/Ishgard) but I think it is safe to say that the same things that stop one from leaving a medieval military organization would be the same things stopping you here. If you simply gave up and walked off without some sort of order to allow it, you would be deserting, and likely in some sort of criminal status from then on. Now if you were injured, completed a tour or obligation, etc that shouldn't be an issue.

RE: Dragoon lore questions - kyioku - 06-24-2016

Thanks, that was quick and very helpful

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Kilieit - 06-24-2016

(06-24-2016, 02:38 PM)kyioku Wrote: 3) Is there any reason other than Dragonsong War that dragooning is, I think, exclusively an ishgardian style of combat?

Well, Ishgardians are the only ones who have such a large portion of their history devoted to fighting airborne foes; which explains why they're the only ones to have developed such a style, at least as far as we can tell.

And especially within the current living memory, Ishgard has had a very closed-off foreign policy - until very recently, it just wasn't that likely that anyone who wasn't born there would gain enough prestige and trust to be trained in one of their most exclusive forms of warfare.

But besides all that, I mean... okay just gonna spoiler tag this. It's sort of tinfoil hat stuff and I'm not sure if any of it is confirmed, but it might be useful inspiration-wise?

Show Content

DRG 30-50 spoilers, DRG 50+ spoilers, major Heavensward MSQ spoilersIn the DRG 30-50 quest chain we learn that the reason the dragoons use that specific type of armour, drachen mail, is because it "calls to their inner dragon", bringing it forth and empowering it. This enhances the supernatural abilities dragoons possess - their jumps, {Dragonfire Dive} and {Blood of the Dragon}/{Fang and Claw} type abilities, and so forth. It also "draws dragons towards you" to make it easier to find and fight them.

During Heavensward MSQ, we learn that everyone who can trace their ancestry to the Ishgardians of a thousand years ago... is infused with the power of the great wyrm Ratatoskr. Ratatoskr was killed, and her Eyes were consumed by the Ishgardians of the time, who then went on to sire children and pass this power on through them. It became diluted over time, but it's still there. And, I mean, it's still enough to physically transform any Ishgardian into a lesser dragon if they imbibe even a single drop of a true dragon's blood.

Now, what I'm about to say isn't a hard-and-fast rule, more of a general idea that suggests why it's Ishgardians who developed this fighting style and no-one else.

I feel like most of the principle behind being "dragoon" as a skillset is based on the idea that you have an "inner dragon"; in other words... that you possess the power of Ratatoskr within you.

Obviously, The Warrior Of Light can learn to become a dragoon. For intents and purposes of quests, the WoL is not even from Eorzea, let alone Ishgard. Which means it's not totally impossible to become one if you aren't descended from Ratatoskr's killers. The WoL can even excel as a dragoon (see: DRG 50+ quests), which proves it's also not impossible to be a really good dragoon without Ratatoskr's blood within you. Just unlikely.

However and nonetheless - I feel the Ratatoskr connection is likely the reason why, all politics and lack of accessibility aside, it's statistically more probable for an Ishgardian to succeed at learning the skills of a dragoon than anyone else.

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Shoshopu - 06-24-2016

(06-24-2016, 03:30 PM)Kilieit Wrote: even a single drop of a true dragon's blood

I would have to find it, but I'm 99% sure a dev has said that it has to be a special vial of dragon's blood concocted specifically to serve that purpose, but it may not necessarily be that hard to make, as it was apparently distributed to a lot of heretics. After all, dragon blood is a relatively standard high-level alchemy ingredient for stat-enhancing potions. I mean, I know Alphinaud has said this or that, but NPCs have proven in the past to be unreliable sources for lore.

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Kilieit - 06-24-2016

(06-24-2016, 03:57 PM)Shoshopu Wrote:
(06-24-2016, 03:30 PM)Kilieit Wrote: even a single drop of a true dragon's blood

I would have to find it, but I'm 99% sure a dev has said that it has to be a special vial of dragon's blood concocted specifically to serve that purpose, but it may not necessarily be that hard to make, as it was apparently distributed to a lot of heretics. After all, dragon blood is a relatively standard high-level alchemy ingredient for stat-enhancing potions. I mean, I know Alphinaud has said this or that, but NPCs have proven in the past to be unreliable sources for lore.

Yeah, if there's dev confirmation on something then that takes precedence over whatever half-remembered thing I recall from MSQ I did last month xD

Either way, it's diluted but not that diluted.

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Shoshopu - 06-24-2016

(06-24-2016, 04:13 PM)Kilieit Wrote:
(06-24-2016, 03:57 PM)Shoshopu Wrote:
(06-24-2016, 03:30 PM)Kilieit Wrote: even a single drop of a true dragon's blood

I would have to find it, but I'm 99% sure a dev has said that it has to be a special vial of dragon's blood concocted specifically to serve that purpose, but it may not necessarily be that hard to make, as it was apparently distributed to a lot of heretics. After all, dragon blood is a relatively standard high-level alchemy ingredient for stat-enhancing potions. I mean, I know Alphinaud has said this or that, but NPCs have proven in the past to be unreliable sources for lore.

Yeah, if there's dev confirmation on something then that takes precedence over whatever half-remembered thing I recall from MSQ I did last month xD

Either way, it's diluted but not that diluted.

Found it!!Â turns out it wasn't on the SE forums at all and I just wasted a couple hours. It's a Dengeki article.

Dengeki Wrote:â€“ When the people of Ishgard become dragons, is there a general role for what they will become?

In terms of how powerful they will become, it goes in order Aevis -> Syricta -> Diresaur. Think of it as depending on how much of the â€œfactor of the dragonâ€ they inherited.

Also, drinking â€œdragons bloodâ€ alone has no effect. It has to be â€œblood poured with great magick.â€

Drinking the blood of a defeated dragon, or even taking draconian medicines, there will be no effect.

In the right doses it is perfectly safe, so adventurers and even the people of Ishgard should have peace of mind when using draconian medicines.

Indeed it's only tangentially related to the topic at hand, but... it was really bothering me so I had to find it. <_>

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Sounsyy - 06-24-2016

I'm late, but I actually have a large post dedicated to Dragoon Lore on the Azure Dragoons and the Order of the Knights Dragoon. That should be really helpful for you.

I'll plop some answers down for the questions I didn't see an answer to already in the thread.

(06-24-2016, 02:38 PM)kyioku Wrote: 1) I know that there are more than 3 dragoons but how do they all function? Are they some sort of organization? Do they actually limit their actions to Ishgard and surrounding regions only?

They are part of an organization called the Order of the Knights Dragoon, information for which I linked above. They are select knights, dragonslayers, and orphaned brumeborn hand selected to bear the mantle, but are first put through rigorous training. They are actually /not/ limited to Ishgardian territory! In the past, due to a close alliance with Gridania, dragoons went so far as the Black Shroud and even into Dravania to combat dragons and protect the outlying hamlets. However, after the loss of Ferndale about 20 years ago the last time Nidhogg awakened, Ishgard withdrew from the Eorzean Alliance and sealed off its gates to everyone, even a large population of its own peoples. This is where we get the insular Ishgard we see today, as well as why we see the four High Houses each attempting to control regions of the Coerthas territory outside of the city.

(06-24-2016, 02:38 PM)kyioku Wrote: 2) Can you just quit being a dragoon? Is there anything stopping you from dropping this fancy armor and leaving your life and title behind?

Yes, you can actually. We've several instances of it. When a dragoon gives up their mantle though, they also must give up their spear and armor. Like when a dragoon dies, their armor and spear are buried on the fields of their greatest victory and sealed with the aether of their soulstone so no one besides a dragoon can dig up the armor.

Anyways, look through the link above in the Azure Dragoon section, just about every legendary dragoon gave up their status on their own accord. Kain, Reinette, Alberic...

Hope that helps! ^^

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Silmanos - 06-24-2016

1) Dragoons as stated are the elite. Organizational wise they are an elite unit within the Temple Knights and report to the Lord Commander. That said they seem to have an extreme level of freedom and by the way things are stated at points I would almost imagine they actually select their own missions rather than be ordered on them. To become a dragoon you must slay a /real/ dragon. Aevis, Srycta, and other forms of elezen transformed into dragons do not count. In addition you must provide proof of this, most commonly accepted form being the dragon's head. It also should be pointed out that the majority of dragoons are likely to be of noble birth as to the Holy See those of lower birth are generally beneath notice. That said it is generally worked around by the fact that killing a dragon is one way to increase your status in the city. Hence why there are those who were not noble born become dragoons as well. That all said this was pre 3.3 and many factors in the MSQ most likely will change a lot of this.

2) As far as stepping down from the Order of the Dragoon I do not think there is anything to stop. Granted most dragoons die in the line of combat before they reach old age but it does happen. My own character is 37 and has asked permission to leave due to having served the order for 14 years, being heavily injured, and required to take over as head of his family. As stated, deserters are a different story. The Holy See regards the knowledge of dragoon techniques as a tightly controlled secret and the soul stones themselves are bestowed by the Holy See.

3) I am not sure if there is a quest that specifically states it but I am almost certain that a soul stone is required for many of the Dragoon techniques, and as stated there has really never been a need for the style of fighting outside of Ishgard.

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Valence - 06-25-2016

Are you sure that the Knight Dragoons are part of the Temple Knights? Is it said somewhere, because it sounds a bit weird to me. They always struck me as a very independent organization that only answers to the Holy See and have great leeway into doing whatever they want to get to their ends when it comes to their duty, slaying dragons and protecting Ishgard.

Also, same, are they really for their crushing majority from high born blood? We see some of them from the Brume, and Estinien himself, unless mistaken, is from very humble origins. Which could be exceptions mind you, I grant you that, but that's the thing with Dragoons. They never seemed to care much about noble ascent to the opposite of your average isghardian knight. And even then, I may be speculating, but if those knights (not dragoons) are any close to what was IRL in medieval times, then a lot of them were actually not even always nobles, but the very few people rich enough to buy a horse, a weapon, and an armour, with the blessing of their lords.Â

As for soulstones, they are the repositories of lost arts. If you get a mentor alive, you don't really need a soulstone, as far as I know, even if it can speed up the process. Some of them, like for the NIN class quests, are traditionally given to the practitioners as a symbol, so that those soulstones also get impregnated by the soul of the warrior they accompany.

RE: Dragoon lore questions - kyioku - 06-25-2016

Sooo much lore to soak, thank you everyone!

RE: Dragoon lore questions - V'aleera - 06-25-2016

(06-25-2016, 03:37 AM)Valence Wrote: Are you sure that the Knight Dragoons are part of the Temple Knights?

The Dragoons are part of the Temple Knights in the sense that they officially answer to the authority of the Archbishop, Knight Commander, and Azure Dragoon in that order (pre-HW). On a practical level though, they do seem to be more insular and independent. During the raid on the Vault we're shown through dialogue between Aymeric and Estinien that the Dragoons are more loyal to their shared cause than broader politics, and likely more loyal to the Azure Dragoon than the Knight Commander or the Archbishop.

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Kilieit - 06-25-2016

(06-25-2016, 03:37 AM)Valence Wrote: Also, same, are they really for their crushing majority from high born blood? We see some of them from the Brume, and Estinien himself, unless mistaken, is from very humble origins. Which could be exceptions mind you, I grant you that, but that's the thing with Dragoons. They never seemed to care much about noble ascent to the opposite of your average isghardian knight. And even then, I may be speculating, but if those knights (not dragoons) are any close to what was IRL in medieval times, then a lot of them were actually not even always nobles, but the very few people rich enough to buy a horse, a weapon, and an armour, with the blessing of their lords.Â

It's completely possible for lowborn to join the Knights Dragoon, yeah.

Dragoon Drop Rate Wrote:When we make our rounds to the Congregation's training facilities to choose hopefuls for the Knights Dragoon, I have noticed the uptick in lowborn numbers among the new recruits. While it is good to give them the benefit of the doubt as their desperate situation allows them to take more risks than their highborn counterparts, sense it does not make to give candidates quality armor from the startâ€”they have a nasty habit of dropping.

Becoming a Knight Dragoon and, subsequently, slaying a large dragon is seen as very prestigious and is one of the only ways a lowborn or, like, those seventh sons of nobles who don't really have anything left to inherit after all their older siblings get their share, can get any recognition. There's a sidequest chain in Coerthas Western Highlands, based around The Convictory, that covers this. It unlocks part way through Coerthas Western's MSQ. I highly recommend completing the whole thing if you want more of a feeling for this sort of thing.

The Secret to Success Wrote:Dominiac wants to support Ser Aymeric, but cannot do so without first gaining glory slaying dragons. Unfortunately, he is not having much luck.

The Knights Dragoon also have a penchant for picking people whose parents were killed by dragons, because they're easy to condition. There's a temple leve that describes doing what we would describe as triggering their PTSD, on purpose, in order to sharpen their hatred of the enemy. No wonder Estinien is... you know... Estinien.

I cannot find the leve for this for the life of me, but I know it exists.

But here are some bits about their equipment and training that I found while looking for it:

Forging Lance Base Wrote:Lancite, so named for its use in our city-state's weapon of choice, is one of the few ores capable of penetrating Dravanian scales. In preparation for the initiation ceremony for new recruits into the Knights Dragoon, the Skysteel Manufactory has requested a large order of the ore so they, in collaboration with the Order of the Friars Templar, may begin the ritualistic process of forging. Make for the Dravanian forelands and cut out great chunks, and the Manufactory shall reward you fairly.

Look Before You Leap Wrote:Among the aspiring Knights Dragoon are a talented few who practice jumping attacks in equipment crafted from adamantite, the weight of which will help them to crush a dragon's skull as an eggshell. Alas, one such youth misstepped during his training and landed among the crags, breaking both his legs and armor in the impact. Though his injuries will heal, he requires a new pair of leg guards, and I would entrust none other but a skilled craftsman with the task.

Patience, Young Grasshopper Wrote:The hopefuls of the Knights Dragoon are near the end of their training drills and have grown overconfident with their newfound power in the dragoon jump. A handful boast themselves invincible, and that they are more than ready to practice the jump in heavy adamantite armor, just as those veterans among the ranks. I have warned them that none but a true master of the art would be able to perform the jump with precision in such heavy armor, yet they heed me not. Very well then, the fools will know their folly once removed from the lists due to shattered ankles.

RE: Dragoon lore questions - Valence - 06-25-2016

Yes, I perfectly remember the convictory series of quests. It was a way for some to get lots of money, glory, recognition, and potentially a noble status if I'm not mistaken. And that would tend to make my question even more sensed since yes, those are all lowborn and can potentially claim application to the Dragoons.

(06-25-2016, 09:34 AM)V Wrote:
(06-25-2016, 03:37 AM)Valence Wrote: Are you sure that the Knight Dragoons are part of the Temple Knights?

The Dragoons are part of the Temple Knights in the sense that they officially answer to the authority of the Archbishop, Knight Commander, and Azure Dragoon in that order (pre-HW). On a practical level though, they do seem to be more insular and independent. During the raid on the Vault we're shown through dialogue between Aymeric and Estinien that the Dragoons are more loyal to their shared cause than broader politics, and likely more loyal to the Azure Dragoon than the Knight Commander or the Archbishop.

Well, obviously everyone has to obey the Holy See and the Archbishop, but what I question is that they answer to the Temple Knights and their lord commander as well. Maybe they do, I honestly don't know. I'm just surprised actually. Where was that stated or shown?

The only thing that I can remember is that Estinien cooperates with Aymeric in the MSQ, and so do the Dragoons (or just him independently at the very least).