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Adventurers with 'Specialized Disciples' has a lore entry now. - Printable Version

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Adventurers with 'Specialized Disciples' has a lore entry now. - Hyrist - 10-19-2016

After doing some digging, I found some interesting tidbits in the Lore book. Apparently the reference lore of the Dragoon in the previous discussion thread is out of context of the greater over arching matter concerning Jobs and adventurers.

Here's the relevant Screenshots to explain that yes, Adventurers's have been perusing and replicating Jobs even outside their specific select orders: (Credit goes to amdapor township , please visit and show appreciation for their diligence in this.)

[Image: tumblr_ofblm1NCcg1tybnywo1_1280.jpg]

[Image: tumblr_ofblm1NCcg1tybnywo3_1280.jpg]

[Image: tumblr_ofblm1NCcg1tybnywo4_1280.jpg]

Looking at the context, I think this should put to bed any lore concerns regarding Adventurer's pursuits and various successes and failures in the "Job" arts - as we now have a dedicated lore entry for what was long suspected true among roleplayers.

While this does not absolve lore conflicts for those attempting to play as members of the select orders they represent, the practitioners of the martial specified discipline that select order has coined isn't just permissible now, it is canon. 

This is an acknowledged movement among adventurers, to the point where the military of Eorzea has taken notices and are attempting to integrate. This should also affect the lore base surrounding these aspects. We will need to reassess the individual storylines regarding jobs and their context within the wider Lore world with this preface in mind now - but for the more part we should diffuse any tensions with those attempting to play practitioners of Jobs - and hope to work to be involved on how to use these martial arts as building blocks for characters, rather than something one dimensional.

Most noted among these is the fact that Soul Stones are something not for everyone and must also be trained with in order to master, no different than any other martial art. This will still enable those wishing to peruse these forums to retain their humble development role-plays while still having access to they gameplay elements we've long debated over being able to adequately roleplay. 

Furthermore this highlights that there is much unspoken lore regarding the Adventurer Culture that needs to be dug through and pursued - as well as remaining open to discussion and exploration in roleplay.

Arrow Discussion point: Will the knowledge of this Lore Book Entry affect how you address roleplays you see or have in the future and if so how?

RE: Adventurers with 'Specialized Disciples' has a lore entry now. - Knight Kat - 10-19-2016

It won't really effect my role play. I already grew use to a lot of RPers playing their characters as 'Jobs'. One of my characters even knows the arts of a 'Job' now.

What interests me the most is the part of the New Disciplines entry that states there are emerging new 'Jobs' and Mechanist is simply the most prominent.

What other new disciplines are out there? I would love if the lore book stated some other examples even if those 'Jobs' are less prominent.

RE: Adventurers with 'Specialized Disciples' has a lore entry now. - Oli! - 10-19-2016

To be honest, I don't think that this really introduces anything new. If anything, it just raises more questions, and will likely lead to more arguments.

The wording is confusing, but the "New Disciplines" section doesn't really seem to refer to anything that's not MCH, which would imply that the only soul crystals being "made" are MCH ones, which we knew already. If they were making new crystals for Old Jobs (which doesn't seem to be the wording here), that would raise the question of who is making them, how, and how rare are they in the first place? We have mention of BRD and WAR, which I don't think all that many people objected to playing in the first place, and then a bit about Jobs using soul stones, which, again, was already known and rather obvious. Many Jobs are left unaccounted for, and the entire entry is exceedingly vague.

The bit on how soul stones actually work is pretty neat, though.

Maybe this clears up BLM, depending on interpretation and whether or not one believes the Gem to be the only soul crystal, which was an ongoing debate back when 3.0 still launched, and likely has not been resolved. WHM lore would still clash with this, given the class story.

I honestly don't think this is the bombshell that people want it to be. If anything, it's more fuel for the fire.

As for whether it will change the way I go about things? No. I've already been complacent enough to let people do Whatever, and I already play Job characters anyway. A MNK and a (retconned until further clarification as of 3.0) BLM are my primary characters.

RE: Adventurers with 'Specialized Disciples' has a lore entry now. - Hyrist - 10-19-2016

(10-19-2016, 10:29 PM)Knight Kat Wrote: It won't really effect my role play. I already grew use to a lot of RPers playing their characters as 'Jobs'. One of my characters even knows the arts of a 'Job' now.

What interests me the most is the part of the New Disciplines entry that states there are emerging new 'Jobs' and Mechanist is simply the most prominent.

What other new disciplines are out there? I would love if the lore book stated some other examples even if those 'Jobs' are less prominent.
My guess is that they're holding back on that because if they were to make another example, people would take it as confirmation that that Job is going to be a gameplay element.

Moreover this confirms the fact that not only are Soul Crystals found, but they're also potentially created continually, as they serve as both methods to record, and pass on techniques as well as objects to learn from.

This also hints into the fact that no two Soul Crystals are identical, providing roleplayers onus to produce some variance in Job techniques, especially in the case of lore specific skills like Blood of the Dragon, which is listed as specific only to the Azure Dragoon. 

Seriously though, this is great for the RPC, but it does not satisfy my want to dig more into the lore of Adventurer Culture itself. I'm still going to be looking for screens while on the waiting list for my own copy of the Lorebook to try to glean more info on how Adventurers have developed and live their lives in Eorzea and beyond. There's so much we don't know about the Adventurer's Guild, for instance. But this piece of info I thought would be really beneficial to the RPC as a whole.

Edit:
As far as the inclination that this will add fuel to the fire. That depends on whether or not people can make the leap from the specific Job Order storylines implying exclusivity, and the now revealed fact that the attempts to replicate these techniques are occurring regardless of attempts to obscure them.

What it really boils down to, at this point is that each individual roleplayer of a job will likely need to write a backstory or do roleplays displaying how they came upon these techniques - same as before. However, this provides an official backdrop of canon to work from - rather than pure speculation.

RE: Adventurers with 'Specialized Disciples' has a lore entry now. - Oli! - 10-19-2016

(10-19-2016, 10:52 PM)Hyrist Wrote: Edit:
As far as the inclination that this will add fuel to the fire. That depends on whether or not people can make the leap from the specific Job Order storylines implying exclusivity, and the now revealed fact that the attempts to replicate these techniques are occurring regardless of attempts to obscure it them.

What it really boils down to, at this point is that each individual roleplayer of a job will likely need to write a backstory or do roleplays displaying how they came upon these techniques - same as before. However, this provides an official backdrop of canon to work from - rather than pure speculation.

The issue is that there is no objective statement of this. The book as it is now provides information which does not offer any statements as to the rarity or accessibility of most of the more exclusive lines of jobs. We have solid confirmation of BRD and WAR, which is absolutely fantastic. Many of the others already have solid confirmations in-game.

But we don't have anything about the others. The only information we are objectively given about WHM and BLM in this passage, for instance, is "people know about them now and they also use soul stones." Nothing on practice, nothing on widespread reclamation, nothing on whether or not the Elementals and Padjal are going to kick your ass for defying their wishes. From an objective standpoint, this gives us nothing new.

And it's a shame, because I was expecting more from SE as far as this topic goes. It gives us something that we can make inferences on, sure, but those inferences are still only that. You even said yourself that players will have to write their way around things, same as before, and the fact that things are being "rediscovered" are self-evident through job plotlines anyway. We are given no new specifics.

TL;DR, I want SE to hurry up and give me BLM back, and it still hasn't. This isn't definitive at all, and even though it presents a case for argument, it's still not clear and absolute, and certainly won't stop arguments.

RE: Adventurers with 'Specialized Disciples' has a lore entry now. - Saravahn - 10-19-2016

I have to echo Oli, here. I don't think any of the information presented here is particularly new. We already knew the teachings of the Warrior were being taken in by the Maelstrom. We already knew Bards were slowly re-emerging and the like.

We already knew soul crystals existed and were important parts of most (or all) of the Jobs... especially black mage and white mage.

If anything, I'd argue that this offers less information than what we already know from in game. Again, referring to the black mage, the whole bit that says a soul crystal is required... lest the one attempting to cast the magic be consumed by it/burned alive from it.

EDIT: I will say, however, the bit about not just anyone being able to pick up a soul crystal and immediately being a master of all the knowledge it possesses is a nice bit that is new. Or, at least, new to me. Refreshing, either way, to see it written plainly by SE.

RE: Adventurers with 'Specialized Disciples' has a lore entry now. - Maril - 10-20-2016

I'm glad they involved a page about it - even if it isn't all new and shiny information. For example with the soul crystal, it's nice to have a somewhat condensed explanation of what they precisely are and how they work (or don't work.) 

I don't really see it as a "get out of jail free card" to go and pick up just any job. For the same reasons I wouldn't have a character of mine inventing new magic - Not before it's a more established canon to pick a rediscovered up up (e.g warrior is easier to approach post-Heavensward). With BLM and WHM especially there's still the concerns of information being well guarded, soul crystal use, the fact that BLM is outlawed/illegal and succor for white mages. But it does give some claim to characters simply wishing to get to these tiers, without actually being there yet (like a long-time obession/passion) - and then eventually it might be a lot safer to actually reach as we get more lore with the expansions and patches to come. 
So overall no, it's not really going to change a whole lot - my characters will still think you crazy if you run around openly telling people you want to be the greatest blackmage eorzea ever saw. Not because I don't agree with it, but because I feel this is how that job is at large being perceived.

RE: Adventurers with 'Specialized Disciples' has a lore entry now. - Hyrist - 10-20-2016

Odd that I would think that, unless they existed in adventurer circles, the only real reaction to someone claiming they wanted to be the best White or Black mage in the would would be: "What's a White/Black mage?" Eorzeans as a whole are not always well learned, even of their own legends.

As far as this not being a 'get out of jail free' card. I have to question what would be at this point and not at the same time be damaging to both the lore and the roleplay.
Put bluntly, the harder your confirmation, the less options you have for roleplay. As it stands, what SE has given is clear licence to peruse. Anything beyond that is open grounds for RP plot discussion.

For example, if they went ahead and said: "This is the method in which Adventurers were able to replicate the skills of a Black Mage." It would, very quickly, become the only accepted method, instead of leaving it to the interpretation of the readers to write, roleplay, and explore the possibilities of pursuing them.

By giving us examples of successes in Warrior and Bard, they give licence for the pursuit of all of them. Pursuit, however, does not guarantee success and it will be on the writer to create a convincing story within which success is justified. However,  in my opinion such prospects should excite, not discourage.

So this is less about "I'm going to be the best White Mage ever seen!" So much as "I am going to single-handeledly revive this lost art!" Or "I am going to pass along this rediscovered secret art!" 

Pursuit, investigation, rediscovery, refinement, failure, persecution, reeducation, are all great story concepts before we even talk about the execution or perfection of the craft. I'd caution not to sell what officiating this with the lore entry can encourage.

RE: Adventurers with 'Specialized Disciples' has a lore entry now. - Oli! - 10-20-2016

(10-20-2016, 07:29 AM)Hyrist Wrote: Odd that I would think that, unless they existed in adventurer circles, the only real reaction to someone claiming they wanted to be the best White or Black mage in the would would be: "What's a White/Black mage?" Eorzeans as a whole are not always well learned, even of their own legends.

There is absolutely nothing present to suggest that the only way that these things would become new to the world is through adventurer circles. Considering the reputation that Black Magic has (that is, the reputation of something dangerous and highly illegal that can get you arrested if practiced), I am inclined to think that this statement is in fact entirely wrong when it comes to certain jobs.

(10-20-2016, 07:29 AM)Hyrist Wrote: As far as this not being a 'get out of jail free' card. I have to question what would be at this point and not at the same time be damaging to both the lore and the roleplay.
Put bluntly, the harder your confirmation, the less options you have for roleplay. As it stands, what SE has given is clear licence to peruse. Anything beyond that is open grounds for RP plot discussion.

This is not a logically consistent statement, because what is being asked is for SE to confirm a positive (that is, make an additive statement) about their lore (as opposed to a subtracting statement, which would limit options). This not a situation in which additive lore would be "damaging" to the lore and roleplay (which is honestly a vague idea which, without any clarification, doesn't really have much weight in this context anyway). Solid confirmation can be anything from them just coming out and saying, "oh yeah, tons of adventurers are <X> Job now, by the way," to something less direct like stumbling across a Secret Black Mage Cabal of untold numbers, all the members of which of which have soul crystals or something.

This is the opening of avenues, not the closing of them. It automatically provides more options by its very nature, instead of somehow limiting them.

(10-20-2016, 07:29 AM)Hyrist Wrote: For example, if they went ahead and said: "This is the method in which Adventurers were able to replicate the skills of a Black Mage." It would, very quickly, become the only accepted method, instead of leaving it to the interpretation of the readers to write, roleplay, and explore the possibilities of pursuing them.

You have given a single confirming method which suited your point, when there are in fact many others that do not fall in line with it at all. Refer to my above dissection.

Even if it became the only way to become a BLM it's still better than what we get from the lore at present: "there may or may not be only one soul crystal, and if you don't have it / one, you explode."

And that's without getting into WHM. Even if there were only one option to becoming a WHM, it's still better than the implications of what the game itself gives us presently, which seems to be no way at all.

(10-20-2016, 07:29 AM)Hyrist Wrote: By giving us examples of successes in Warrior and Bard, they give licence for the pursuit of all of them. Pursuit, however, does not guarantee success and it will be on the writer to create a convincing story within which success is justified. However,  in my opinion such prospects should excite, not discourage.

So this is less about "I'm going to be the best White Mage ever seen!" So much as "I am going to single-handeledly revive this lost art!" Or "I am going to pass along this rediscovered secret art!" 

Pursuit, investigation, rediscovery, refinement, failure, persecution, reeducation, are all great story concepts before we even talk about the execution or perfection of the craft. I'd caution not to sell what officiating this with the lore entry can encourage.

Again, see above.

The idea of confirmation being "limiting" is even disproved by this very passage, and your opinion on the way that BRD and WAR are presented. With this section, you have more or less disagreed with everything that you have offered above.