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+--- Thread: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? (/showthread.php?tid=18360)
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In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - sima - 01-28-2017
I couldn't find a way to properly explain what I meant in the title, so lemme try to do so through some examples. This is obviously something that's only applicable to combat RP based on the use of /random.
Scenario 1
Your character is fighting somebody. Their foe makes the first move, rolling a 350. You roll for a counter-attack, and get 450.
Scenario 2
Your character is fighting somebody. Their foe makes the first move, rolling a 58. You roll for a counter-attack, and get 900.
Your character wins the exchange in both instances. However, in the first scenario, you roll only a little higher than the other person, and in the second, there's a huge disparity. So I'm wondering, is that something you would take into account when writing up your RP response? Like, if you rolled only a little higher, would you RP your characters counter-attack/parry/action of choice as being less effective than you would if you had rolled much higher than the other person, or would you ignore the difference between the rolls and RP an attack which rolled 900 the same as you would RP one which rolled a 200? Assuming both rolls resulted in your character winning the exchange.
Hopefully I'm making sense! It's not really an important thing, but it's something I've been a lil curious about. Super new to RP, so I'm not entirely sure how people incorporate things like rolls into their RP beyond just success/fail.
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - Nodem - 01-28-2017
This is something I personally take into account for when losing a roll. If I lose by 1 it's less pain inflicting then if I lost by a much large gap, for example. Same is applied to winning a dodge in which I might barely dodge, deflect, etc the move compared to it being a mile away.
A lot of people do it differently, including a win is a win so they win however they'd like. I remember one time I did combat that each losing roll for defense (either side) the differences were inflicted inflicted as damage into our health pools.
Example: Attacker 257, Defender 157 = Defender takes 100 points damage out of their health pool.
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - sima - 01-28-2017
(01-28-2017, 04:21 PM)Nodem Wrote: This is something I personally take into account for when losing a roll. If I lose by 1 it's less pain inflicting then if I lost by a much large gap, for example. Same is applied to winning a dodge in which I might barely dodge, deflect, etc the move compared to it being a mile away.
A lot of people do it differently, including a win is a win so they win however they'd like. I remember one time I did combat that each losing roll for defense (either side) the differences were inflicted inflicted as damage into our health pools.
Example: Attacker 257, Defender 157 = Defender takes 100 points damage out of their health pool.
This what I've been doing, too! Wasn't sure if it was the "correct" way to go about it or not, though. Yesterday I rolled a 58 in dodging an attack which rolled 900+, so I RP'd it as completely overpowering and incapacitating my character. If I'd lost the roll by only a couple points, I'd have likely RP'd it as being just a minor injury or what have ya.
That combat system sounds interesting! Sounds a lot like a tabletop RPG. Would be fun to try out.
Thank you for the response!
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - Unnamed Mercenary - 01-28-2017
It honestly depends who I'm RPing with.
A lot of the time, I've been in RP scenes where the rollings is really just win/lose or succeed/fail. So it wouldn't matter if I rolled a 2 of a 999 against someone who rolled a 1. The only part that mattered is that I beat their roll. I prefer this method when there are more than 4 people involved in rolling for things in the scene. Otherwise, there starts to be too much overhead into what a person's "power level" should be and it becomes needlessly complicated with little benefits.
In other rolling schemes, I have seen people do some form of critical hit or critical fail, but it's always been on them to decide what those parameters are. The same for so, beating someone's roll by more than 500 or 700 or whatever. While this can make a scene feel more involved it can also lead to some odd reactions in my experiences. I'd place caution on it due to potentially breaking character.
I've also used other dice systems (Fate-14 1.0 is my primary example). In these, a tabletop or other imported dice system is imported for use in FFXIV, usually with vary degrees of rules from that system. How well it works ultimately depends on the DM and people participating. I wouldn't consider it good for random walkups because there will be more time spent explaining the rules or enforcing the rules, but for a scheduled RP scene or something already established, it's a great way to give characters something a little more tangible for their histories and experiences beyond just luck of the /random emote.
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - Sounsyy - 01-28-2017
I do this purely to add a little extra flavor to a fight scene and to make a little nod to the other roleplayer. I wouldn't consider it anything that's necessary or required as that might be needlessly complicated and add more rulesets to what should be a simple /random duel. But when it's done for flavor, I find the fight a little more enjoyable on my end.
For an example I might react to losing a DEF roll 500 against 560 attack as the blow staggering my character versus losing 157 to 736 having the attack completely knocking my character off her feet. But ultimately it depends on how realistically my fight partner sets up possible responses. And sometimes I just ignore the differences if it's going to over-complicate things. I say play with it.
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - H.H. - 01-28-2017
When in doubt, go by the rule of kakkoi (TL note: kakkoi means cool). I tend to lean towards always getting the wind knocked out of a character in combat RP, because fighting is tough, dude, even for tough dudes. Also because it sets things up for a top 10 anime fights scenario when you inevitably hit match point - going by Grindstone or similar rules, of course - where you can both drop your weapons and have a Heaven's Feel fistfight.
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - Verad - 01-28-2017
Yes. The system I use relies explicitly on the difference between a successful attack roll and a failed defense roll to determine damage. There are a number of ways a serious hit can be mitigated which aren't worth going into here, but the general effect is that a single hit in combat can be decisive.
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - sima - 01-28-2017
(01-28-2017, 04:29 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: It honestly depends who I'm RPing with.
A lot of the time, I've been in RP scenes where the rollings is really just win/lose or succeed/fail. So it wouldn't matter if I rolled a 2 of a 999 against someone who rolled a 1. The only part that mattered is that I beat their roll. I prefer this method when there are more than 4 people involved in rolling for things in the scene. Otherwise, there starts to be too much overhead into what a person's "power level" should be and it becomes needlessly complicated with little benefits.
In other rolling schemes, I have seen people do some form of critical hit or critical fail, but it's always been on them to decide what those parameters are. The same for so, beating someone's roll by more than 500 or 700 or whatever. While this can make a scene feel more involved it can also lead to some odd reactions in my experiences. I'd place caution on it due to potentially breaking character.
I've also used other dice systems (Fate-14 1.0 is my primary example). In these, a tabletop or other imported dice system is imported for use in FFXIV, usually with vary degrees of rules from that system. How well it works ultimately depends on the DM and people participating. I wouldn't consider it good for random walkups because there will be more time spent explaining the rules or enforcing the rules, but for a scheduled RP scene or something already established, it's a great way to give characters something a little more tangible for their histories and experiences beyond just luck of the /random emote.
It seems the general consensus is that taking the difference between rolls into account when RPing can make for an interesting fight, but can very easily lead to awkwardness if the RP involves multiple people. Everybody has their own idea of what a realistic injury or action is, so I suppose if everybody is taking the roll disparity into account in their own RP, then the chance of one or more players having a mixed response becomes even more likely.
I definitely agree in saying that it's probably not the best route for walk-ups. It's something that's best discussed at least a little with the players involved.
Apologies for replying so late, and thank you for the response!
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - sima - 01-28-2017
(01-28-2017, 04:43 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: I do this purely to add a little extra flavor to a fight scene and to make a little nod to the other roleplayer. I wouldn't consider it anything that's necessary or required as that might be needlessly complicated and add more rulesets to what should be a simple /random duel. But when it's done for flavor, I find the fight a little more enjoyable on my end.
For an example I might react to losing a DEF roll 500 against 560 attack as the blow staggering my character versus losing 157 to 736 having the attack completely knocking my character off her feet. But ultimately it depends on how realistically my fight partner sets up possible responses. And sometimes I just ignore the differences if it's going to over-complicate things. I say play with it.
I agree! I'd never force another player to abide by those rules, but I like to follow them in my own responses. If I'm in combat RP with somebody who doesn't really seem interested in a fight that might be ended quickly if they roll far higher than I do, I'll likely switch over to just success/fail. I definitely do feel that combat RP is funner when the roll difference is taken into account, though.
A day or so ago I took part in some combat RP, the DM's rules stating that characters can endure 3 hits before they're KO'd. I rolled a 58 versus something crazy like a 980, so I had it completely overthrow my character, rendering him pretty much out of action after the one hit. I asked the other RP if they'd mind me doing that, or if they'd prefer a longer fight where my character continues until 3 hits, but they were totally cool w the first idea. Like you said, I feel like it's a nice nod to whatever character or roleplayer you're facing, so long as they're okay with it.
Probably not something that's suited to every combat RP encounter, as it may serve only to complicated things as you said, but it's a fun way of going about it.
Thanks for the response!
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - sima - 01-28-2017
(01-28-2017, 10:14 PM)Verad Wrote: Yes. The system I use relies explicitly on the difference between a successful attack roll and a failed defense roll to determine damage. There are a number of ways a serious hit can be mitigated which aren't worth going into here, but the general effect is that a single hit in combat can be decisive.
The system you use sounds interesting! It's very much the way I'd like to go about conducting combat RP. Sounds like it adds far more realism and suspense to duels.
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - Charity322 - 01-29-2017
I don't like the idea of random rolls, because of the totally random part.
It's such a pity that the duelling system wasn't made able to be done anywhere and not just at the Wolves' Den.
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - Seye Qhesu - 01-29-2017
(01-29-2017, 12:56 AM)Charity322 Wrote: I don't like the idea of random rolls, because of the totally random part.
It's such a pity that the duelling system wasn't made able to be done anywhere and not just at the Wolves' Den.
The problem with that would be people who don't PvP having a disadvantage or 1vs1 player imbalance between classes. Let alone you would have to then worry about levels which should never remove someone from any rp.
I often roll when battling but I freeform as well if I know the character and what they can and can't do verse my own and if my character would stand a chance or not.
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - Nebbs - 01-29-2017
(01-29-2017, 01:03 AM)Kiri Rokuyari Wrote:(01-29-2017, 12:56 AM)Charity322 Wrote: I don't like the idea of random rolls, because of the totally random part.
It's such a pity that the duelling system wasn't made able to be done anywhere and not just at the Wolves' Den.
The problem with that would be people who don't PvP having a disadvantage or 1vs1 player imbalance between classes. Let alone you would have to then worry about levels which should never remove someone from any rp.
I often roll when battling but I freeform as well if I know the character and what they can and can't do verse my own and if my character would stand a chance or not.
As for me I prefer relying on role play and the players imagination, though each participant has to have some give and take in this. I often will loose, because selfishly the looser often gets the best RP, though it depends on the other player and how much power they role play.
I will roll if they must, but often the outcome is odd, like the old lady beats up the knight... "live by the dice, die by the dice", and once you start using them it leads down the whole dice/character-sheet mechanics, which would cover the OP's gap in rolls as well as hundreds of other mechanics. Though the Fate-14 stuff looks like a nice compromise for a character sheet and I must try that.
I will use PvP for effects and it is useful to create the visuals of an actual fight. But... one thing I absolutely don't subscribe to is that a players PvP skill equates to their character's skill. The same way a character's level is meaningless.
The good thing is if you are willing to flex a little you can often find a common ground and get the good RP from the situation. After all we do this for RP not PvP via dice?
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - FreelanceWizard - 01-29-2017
(01-29-2017, 06:21 AM)Nebbs Wrote: As for me I prefer relying on role play and the players imagination, though each participant has to have some give and take in this. I often will loose, because selfishly the looser often gets the best RP, though it depends on the other player and how much power they role play.
This is pretty much where I'm at. While the Tower does have a couple of light game systems -- one particularly for "offline investigation," where you compare your listed traits to a forum post and thereby decide what your character knows when they investigate an item or NPC -- I've really ended up on the side of the discussing outcomes OOC and working to achieve some story objective for both sides. That way, everyone gets at least some of what they want for character and story development. And yes, that often means that I end up either losing a fight or achieving a Pyrrhic victory. Sure, L'yhta defeats the bad guy, but she's a shattered mess that needs extensive healing and rest.
Then again, I rarely end up in fights with people I don't interact with on at least a somewhat regular basis, and that tends to produce a greater willingness to negotiate. I imagine that, if that were a common thing for me, I might be more amenable to dice rolling -- and I definitely see why that's an important thing in open RP events.
For what it's worth, when I have done random rolls for fights, I do take the relative values into consideration. As an example, Clio's Bacchus Shots competition was based on "lowest roll takes hit, 3 hits and you're out." If I were the lowest roll and it happened to be a really low roll, I'd emote a much more visceral reaction than if it were a high one.
RE: In combat RP, do you take the difference between rolls into account? - Verad - 01-30-2017
(01-29-2017, 06:21 AM)Nebbs Wrote: I will roll if they must, but often the outcome is odd, like the old lady beats up the knight... "live by the dice, die by the dice", and once you start using them it leads down the whole dice/character-sheet mechanics, which would cover the OP's gap in rolls as well as hundreds of other mechanics. Though the Fate-14 stuff looks like a nice compromise for a character sheet and I must try that.
The question of outlandish results comes up quite a bit when discussing the use of dice. It's most common in pure RNG systems that are nothing more than /random, high-roll wins situations, but it can happen even in systems that have character sheets delineating specific abilities.
There are a number of ways to handle the unexpected, none of which have much to do with any particular system and more to do with how the dice are interpreted:
- Incorporate the circumstances and environment to explain why, in this instance, the unlikely victory happened. Not only is this more interesting than combat on a flat battlefield, but it means that the defeat of the more experienced character isn't because they were necessarily less competent than normal, but because something happened that neither party expected which gave the weaker combatant the edge.
- Use a fail-forward approach to describing bad rolls, in which a character succeeds at a task, but in so doing has some unexpected complication that makes the circumstances worse despite the success.
- Include some sort of meta-mechanic that characters can use to improve their rolls automatically based on their core competencies. Fate-14 does this with Fate Points, but that's only one system among many.
- Related to the above, take less of a strictly realistic simulation-style approach to the interpretation of the rolls and adopt a more narrative approach: In most circumstances, the old lady would be easily bested by the knight, but this knight is the one that killed her son, and she knows it, driving her to fight well beyond her capabilities.