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+--- Thread: Chocobo Raising/Aging (/showthread.php?tid=18853)
Chocobo Raising/Aging - Zeryxis - 03-15-2017
So my main character, C'elah, is an aspiring chocobo breeder, having grown up in Thalanan and gotten herself a pair of racer stock birds. I'm trying to imagine what the aging/breeding/raising process involves, as well as the time span for each. I've started up my research on it and wanted some input on it before getting too much head canon going.
Obviously one needs (at minimum) two mature adult birds, a male and a female, in order to breed. I was considering a mix of aspects to the process and time span. I imagine they are not constantly laying eggs, like chickens do, but perhaps have a sort of seasonal cycle kinda deal, where the hens are more fertile and will accept male advances as well as be able to actually have a viable egg.
I'm considering in part that, in-game, your racers have only 10 breeding chances, in that you own all their breeding rights, and will keep them their entire lives, so to speak. As well as that it takes a certain amount of exp to get them to breeding fitness.
Perhaps they have mating displays or such like several bird species, or just their aging happens to coincide with the time it takes to determine their racer ability, etc. Just conjecture at this point for me.
I think a hen will lay and tend to only one egg at a time, and from what I could tell, the eggs are decently large compared to the parent size. The hen likely takes on the main role of tending her egg, perhaps the male has a small flock of mates, or just the one, I'm not sure at this point, though with humanoid intervention, the hens and cockerels likely either aren't kept together or are used to how they're handled, etc.
So far I've figured a cockerel will defend and stick close with hens if allowed, but is fine on his own if not, while hens tend to group up unless they have an egg, then they keep a little more to themselves and get broody.
Time-wise, I think a month or so (moon) is about right for hatching time for birds this size, then the chick likely grows rapidly, and is fit for racing/riding within a season or two, depending on size and rider, etc.
This could change as needed, since if a hen lays an egg a season, she wants to either have her previous chick be gone or at least independent enough to not be draining her energy while she's sitting on another egg.
Heck they could perhaps have a system where an older chick sits the egg while the mother goes and gathers food, and this lets them (esp young hens) learn how to tend to their own young.
Since they're a flight species (as in running off, not flying) I imagine the chick is up and running within the day, if not within hours of hatching. Though again, humanoid intervention may have slowed the process, since they feel safe around their people and may not encourage their chicks up and about as quickly as a wild hen would.
I'll expand on this more later, it's 1am for me at the moment and I should be getting to bed x'D but I just needed to get this out first. Thanks to anyone who helps out/suggests sources/finds info/generally encourages my research!Â
ADDED 3/16
Eggs hatch after approx 20-25 days [sub](lore refers to fortnight -14 days- of waiting for the egg to hatch, may not have been freshly laid, and wasn't a chocobo egg either)
[/sub]Since racing a bird from 1 to 40 (retiring age) takes approx 35 races, and I imagine they do one or two races a week, realistically, it would take about 18 weeks (over 4 months) to mature from the youngest able to be ridden, likely at 6-8 weeks after hatching.
This places a mature, breedable adult bird at about 6 months old, lending some believably to them having approximately seasonal fertility cycles. Bi-seasonal would be less likely from the need to keep their numbers up, such as if a breeding didn't take last season or a chick was lost.
Taking clues off horses, and some comments from lore, I imagine chocobos stay in small herds/flocks of about 5-10, to include any hens with chicks. Perhaps just one or two breeding cockerels with the group, with lone chocobos likely being bachelor cockerels. Lone females are perhaps rarer, unless they're brooding ones that are nesting, which are spoken as being off-limits to being hunted in lore.
I imagine, with their amicable natures, the offspring generally stay with the mothers until they're breeding age (in the case of males, who likely get run off by the breeding cockerel/s), and either join a different flock/herd or stay with their birth flock/herd to raise their own young.
The lore refers to geldings as being what was originally the only 'released' chocobos to prevent non Ishgardian breedings, but I know that the birds are now easier to obtain, but likely still that females are more expensive.
I imagine that racing chocobos are a different overall build than draft/company/riding chocobo, since they are bred for racing, not burdenwork. Rather like the difference between a thoroughbred, a draft horse, and a general carthorse. They -can- do some of the work, but aren't as good at it as one bred for it, nor is a common chocobo likely to be as good at racing as the racer types.
For coloration, I believe it's a simple answer of Desert Yellow being dominant to other colors, whereas all other colors are co-dominant to one another. Likely all DY birds carry recessive colors, hence why they often have different-colored offspring, but DY is most common due to being dominant. Since you can't recolor racer birds in-game, I imagine the feeding system is likely aesthetic only, in that if you bred a naturally DY bird to another DY bird, the offspring would be DY, not the color the parent was 'fed' into.
ok thats enough for the moment xD
ADDED 3/22
Taking into account that the breeding number is 10, and we can assume an active breeder gets in as many covers as possible, a chocobo only has a span of 2 years 6 months of breeding potential, putting them past prime at about 3 or 4 years. However, ignoring the breeding limit as purely an ingame mechanic... there is the possibility that, like horses, chocobos have long working lifespans, which is likely why they are so valuable.
IRL, ostriches weigh around 200 lbs on average (~140-320) and live to about the age of 40, after taking 2-4 years to reach sexual maturity. This ratios a chocobo to about 10 years, longer with good care, and likely are heavier due to being bulkier in overall build when compared to an ostrich, likely putting them around 300lbs on average.
When considering the different sizes of chocobo (lalafell to roe mounts) they are likely interbreedable and are just a product of selective breeding. I do imagine not all small chocobo are as super small as those in game (by comparison), and that the roe-size mounts are as large as a chocobo will get, and likely are considered draft breeds.
I figure likely for a chocobo to fly, they have some sort of wind aspect to lighten their bodies, unless it's been decided that "in character" a chocobo doesn't fly, but perhaps jumps very well and can glide using a degree of wind aspect.
I forget what else I was going to bring up this time now. XD
ADDED 3/28
Diet, thats what I was gonna get into last time and forgot.
Now we know chochobos love them some gysahl greens, and also enjoy chysal greens and Yafaem wildgrass, as well as a variety of fruit. There's worms in their feed blends, too, so we can speculate they are insectivores as well, or at least opportunistic ones. So they're fully omnivores, and may also enjoy or get a taste for meats, eggs, fish, etc... depending on where they are raised and what foods they are introduced to. So we can safely assume the bulk of their diet (60% or more) is vegetation, with added insects as opportunity arises. With some speculation, we can also guess they can have their diet adjusted as needed, perhaps slowly, such as if somewhere has a surplus of fish, it is dried and ground into their feed gradually until a bulk of their meal is actually unusual for them. This can also lead to thoughts of what exactly the health benefits/problems may arise, such as vitamin and mineral deficiency or overabundance in their system.
Assuming chocobos have a crop like other birds, they may also require grit or stones in their diet to maintain their digestion. Especially this asks if they perhaps would want things with more calcium to them, such as ground up eggshells or bones, and would seek these out if they were lacking on their own.
RE: Chocobo Raising/Aging - Sounsyy - 03-15-2017
There's a lot of specifics that we just don't have info on, but most of the lore for chocos can be found here:
-Chocobo Lore
Hope this helps! ^^
RE: Chocobo Raising/Aging - Zeryxis - 03-16-2017
(03-15-2017, 05:35 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: There's a lot of specifics that we just don't have info on, but most of the lore for chocos can be found here:
-Chocobo Lore
Hope this helps! ^^
Thanks so much! It did help, gave me some ideas (added to the first post) that the lore sparked with me. I'm totally speculating on all aspects of chocobos, but usually with what makes the most logical sense, when compared to real animals and what we do have at-hand kinda deal
RE: Chocobo Raising/Aging - Zeryxis - 03-22-2017
updated main post, any ideas/thoughts/criticism/suggestions/etc would be helpful :3 I'd really like to have a solid base idea for this, considering it's my main's primary motivator!
RE: Chocobo Raising/Aging - Zeryxis - 03-28-2017
(03-22-2017, 10:38 PM)Zeryxis Wrote: updated main post, any ideas/thoughts/criticism/suggestions/etc would be helpful :3 I'd really like to have a solid base idea for this, considering it's my main's primary motivator!
RE: Chocobo Raising/Aging - Mae - 03-30-2017
I think this is one of those things where it's kind of hard to balance what we have for lore with game mechanics and real-life examples/comparisons, and then the "it's a fantasy world, real-life means nothing/very little". I'm in the camp that likes to use real-life comparisons to fill in the gaps that the devs left. So... take what you want from my opinion.
I think a lot of your initial numbers look good... for chickens. And while it's not uncommon for chocobos to be jokingly called chickens, they seem (at least to me) to have more in common with ostriches, emu, and cassowary. These types of birds take around two years to reach adulthood, up to five to reach physical maturity suitable to breed, can be at breeding peak for up to twenty years, and have a lifespan of up to fifty years.
Now... I wasn't able to pull up much information on racing ostriches, so I can only really speculate the next based on what I know about horses. And seeing that the age-ranges sort of match up, I think it's safe to assume that this would be similar. Anyways. The training/breaking process for horses usually doesn't start until they're at least two years old. You can get them used to wearing a halter and having their feet messed with and introduced to a blanket before that, but bridles and saddles (and sometimes shoes) are out of the question before then. And while the breaking/training can be started at this point, horses typically aren't considered really rideable until closer to four years old. Training for racing takes more time and generally you don't want to start racing a horse before it reaches full physical maturity, which happens at around six years of age.
So where does this leave us? If we go a more realistic route with horse-to-ostrich-to-chocobo comparisons... a newly-hatched chick likely wouldn't be seeing it's first race until six years old. Which, from and RP perspective, isn't going to be fun for most people to have to RP waiting that long. Even more so in a game where the passage of time is fuzzy -- last I heard back during... I think 2.5... only three or so months had passed in-game from the start of ARR to that point; if that's held true, then we're likely not even gone through nine months yet.
The complete opposite side of the spectrum, of course, would be game mechanics. Where if you've got enough time and caffeine in your system, you can breed for a new 'bo, receive the new 'bo already race-ready, level it up, and breed/retire it in less than twenty-four hours. Or twenty-four game-mechanic days, if you wish to consider it that way.
Where does that leave us? Well... I'm not really going to argue against the more chicken-appropriate numbers. Given RP'ers attention spans, they're more friendly for most people.
So, there's my thoughts on the timing.
Something you might find interesting and may want to consider is the brooding habits of ostrich/emu/cassowary. Ostrich are the only ones (of the species that I read about) where the females are solely the ones who incubate eggs -- emu and cassowary both have sub-species where that's the male's part, and the females wander off to breed and lay again.Â
Also, did you consider if the females would lay unfertilized eggs even without mating, or do they only lay after breeding? This could potentially affect whether not a female would even be a viable racer -- I didn't see if ostrich/emu/cassowary do auto-laying, I'm iffy about chickens cause I've heard they auto-lay but personal experience is that a rooster's presence is needed, but I can 100% guarantee that cockatiels auto-lay. If they do auto-lay, it could make it so that the females have a -very- limited racing career. I know with 'tiels, they begin to become moody and nasty a week or two before they lay and remain that way until they 'give up' on the egg, and you -have- to wait for them to give up; remove their egg too early, and they'll just lay another to replace. A similar reaction is why chickens continue to lay as well for an extended period.
RE: Chocobo Raising/Aging - Zeryxis - 04-01-2017
(03-30-2017, 12:41 AM)Mae Wrote: I think this is one of those things where it's kind of hard to balance what we have for lore with game mechanics and real-life examples/comparisons, and then the "it's a fantasy world, real-life means nothing/very little". I'm in the camp that likes to use real-life comparisons to fill in the gaps that the devs left. So... take what you want from my opinion.Thanks very much for your input! And While I did look into the stuff with ostriches and horses and such, part of me realized that a lot of the missing pieces in chocobos is really up for speculation. But I will address a couple of things you pointed out, thanks for adding in!
I think a lot of your initial numbers look good... for chickens. And while it's not uncommon for chocobos to be jokingly called chickens, they seem (at least to me) to have more in common with ostriches, emu, and cassowary. These types of birds take around two years to reach adulthood, up to five to reach physical maturity suitable to breed, can be at breeding peak for up to twenty years, and have a lifespan of up to fifty years.
Now... I wasn't able to pull up much information on racing ostriches, so I can only really speculate the next based on what I know about horses. And seeing that the age-ranges sort of match up, I think it's safe to assume that this would be similar. Anyways. The training/breaking process for horses usually doesn't start until they're at least two years old. You can get them used to wearing a halter and having their feet messed with and introduced to a blanket before that, but bridles and saddles (and sometimes shoes) are out of the question before then. And while the breaking/training can be started at this point, horses typically aren't considered really rideable until closer to four years old. Training for racing takes more time and generally you don't want to start racing a horse before it reaches full physical maturity, which happens at around six years of age.
So where does this leave us? If we go a more realistic route with horse-to-ostrich-to-chocobo comparisons... a newly-hatched chick likely wouldn't be seeing it's first race until six years old. Which, from and RP perspective, isn't going to be fun for most people to have to RP waiting that long. Even more so in a game where the passage of time is fuzzy -- last I heard back during... I think 2.5... only three or so months had passed in-game from the start of ARR to that point; if that's held true, then we're likely not even gone through nine months yet.
The complete opposite side of the spectrum, of course, would be game mechanics. Where if you've got enough time and caffeine in your system, you can breed for a new 'bo, receive the new 'bo already race-ready, level it up, and breed/retire it in less than twenty-four hours. Or twenty-four game-mechanic days, if you wish to consider it that way.
Where does that leave us? Well... I'm not really going to argue against the more chicken-appropriate numbers. Given RP'ers attention spans, they're more friendly for most people.
So, there's my thoughts on the timing.
Something you might find interesting and may want to consider is the brooding habits of ostrich/emu/cassowary. Ostrich are the only ones (of the species that I read about) where the females are solely the ones who incubate eggs -- emu and cassowary both have sub-species where that's the male's part, and the females wander off to breed and lay again.Â
Also, did you consider if the females would lay unfertilized eggs even without mating, or do they only lay after breeding? This could potentially affect whether not a female would even be a viable racer -- I didn't see if ostrich/emu/cassowary do auto-laying, I'm iffy about chickens cause I've heard they auto-lay but personal experience is that a rooster's presence is needed, but I can 100% guarantee that cockatiels auto-lay. If they do auto-lay, it could make it so that the females have a -very- limited racing career. I know with 'tiels, they begin to become moody and nasty a week or two before they lay and remain that way until they 'give up' on the egg, and you -have- to wait for them to give up; remove their egg too early, and they'll just lay another to replace. A similar reaction is why chickens continue to lay as well for an extended period.
horses - most thoroughbreds are introduced to racing at 2 (far too young imo, but there it is) and peak on average of 4-5 years old. A riding horse is given more time than a racer, because a turnover on racing horses is likely two generations per decade. Meaning a horse has to get on the track, prove itself, and get breeding within 5 years in order to have their offspring doing the same. Few horses stay on the track very long, either by injury, lacking performance, or because the owner wants their genes passed on asap and they are then considered too valuable to risk running a track.
ostriches - sexually mature in 2-4 years time, faster than horses even though they commonly live longer. Both genders incubate the nest, females at the day and the male at night. The males are the most common nanny, while the females take up the excess of it.
rheas - male covers the nest of all his females, adult age is approx 2 years. Male raises his chicks, and may even chase away females once they've hatched.
emus - pair, male nests. The female often goes off to find another male, but competition for them is fierce.
etc... so we see there's the common theme of males tending the brood rather than the females. I was going to include cassowary, moa, and kiwi, but I admit, I got tired of reading up x'D
eggs - I think likely their limited breeding in-game can be sorta correlated to their breeding cycles, as in they don't constantly lay eggs like chickens. They likely rely on their seasonal cycles to produce eggs, rather than have it be a common occurrence. I'm not 100% sure how atm because I'm writing at 1am and should have been in bed like an hour ago for work tomorrow x'D but I wanted ot get an answer in ~
also something that supports their eggs not being commonly laid except for during breeding - I haven't seen much of anything stating their eggs are eaten, so they're either too precious to risk, or, they don't lay them enough to be considered a food source over a possible burden animal/racer. Likely they do, however, sit the egg until it hatches or they give up, because after a certain period it's not viable as a chick and they don't want to continue to waste resources on it. Likely they don't lay unless they breed, perhaps some sort of hormonal influence? If this happens then likely the females seek out more calcium-rich foods at the time to support the shell being made, rather than having it leech off their own bones.
I am glad you pointed things out, and brought up a few things I didn't particularly bring up. Some of it is total speculation, and some of it is skewed in favor of speed, but not so much that it seems unreasonable. Perhaps the chocobos have been selected for faster maturation as well, or continued growth even as adults, rather than hitting a 'mature' size and sticking there. Idk, all speculation and considering, etc. I think being mature at a fast age is more a racer thing, as opposed to all types of the birds, but it averages to under a year before they're breeding, perhaps.
I had more but it's late and I need to go to bed, thanks for the input and discussing though!