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+--- Thread: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy (/showthread.php?tid=19220)
Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Siliconparody - 04-26-2017
I had an idea for the concept of Allagan Astromancy, but I don't really know all that much about how spellcasting actually works, and much of what I know about astrology in FFXIV is forgotten. It's been a while since I got AST to 60! D: Plus, this idea is blatantly lore-bending, but hopefully it's not lore-shattering.
So I know that modern Astrology in Hydaelyn came from Sharlayan, but they weren't the first to be able to manipulate celestial aether. If the Allagans were able to build starships and artificial moons, I'd think that they'd have their own form of astromancy as well, but it would be combined with Allagan technomagic somehow. They would have a far less "mystical" outlook on it, and a far more practical one.
I'm trying to figure out how to get my character to gain the powers of Allagan Astromancy or Chronomancy (not sure what to call it yet, since Astroligans are both time wizards AND star wizards basically). Said character has no background in spellcasting; she's a Machinist obsessed with everything Allagan. An idea I had was something equivalent to soul crystals: nanites. Bear with me here, not traditional nanomachines, but tiny, biomechanical nanites that the Allagans somehow utilized to let someone become a spellcaster very quickly. I don't know, something to that effect.
The idea is that I'd still have the same powers as an Astrologian, but I simply want to give more of a sci-fi, or I suppose more of an Allagan, aesthetic and flavor. Cards would still be cards, but instead of telling someone's "fate", they hold "aetheric engrams" or "magical protocols": temporarily re-writing the laws of metaphysics by temporarily manipulating someone's aether to make them more powerful ("The Balance"), for example. Malefic and Combust would...well, still be Malefic and Combust. XD
I dunno, does this sound far-fetched? I feel like this is too special snowflaky, but I really like the idea. My character wouldn't be fundamentally more powerful than other Astrologians; she'd just be flavored differently. Kind of like the divide between Ishgardian and Sharlayan Astrology, but a lesser known branch of it (I would assume there'd be other practicioners of Allagan "astrology" out there, intentionally or not).
If it doesn't sound ridiculous, help me refine and process these ideas into something workable! It should be added that I generally RP with folks who are okay with RP'ing with black and white mages, as long as there's a good reason why they're those things, so I'm not looking for strict lore adherence.
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Unnamed Mercenary - 04-26-2017
Quote:I'm trying to figure out how to get my character to gain the powers of Allagan Astromancy or Chronomancy (not sure what to call it yet, since Astroligans are both time wizards AND star wizards basically). Said character has no background in spellcasting; she's a Machinist obsessed with everything Allagan. An idea I had was something equivalent to soul crystals: nanites. Bear with me here, not traditional nanomachines, but tiny, biomechanical nanites that the Allagans somehow utilized to let someone become a spellcaster very quickly. I don't know, something to that effect.
Soul crystals have been around since at least Allagan times. They frequently mentioned in the Summoner quest lines. For a primer on how some magic works in Eorzea, I defer to this Sounsyy post.
Spellcasting and Aether Sources
While I've played around with the idea of magic being treated like an editable program of sorts (SCH/Arcanima for me), there are some perfectly good ways to get someone's knowledge on how to cast without having to bend lore! from my perspective, most of the current-day magic has likely been around much longer. Or has fallen out of use only to e rediscovered after one or more calamities. So it's not too much of a stretch that the Allags might've had Astromancy or something like it under another name.
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Siliconparody - 04-26-2017
(04-26-2017, 01:52 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:Quote:I'm trying to figure out how to get my character to gain the powers of Allagan Astromancy or Chronomancy (not sure what to call it yet, since Astroligans are both time wizards AND star wizards basically). Said character has no background in spellcasting; she's a Machinist obsessed with everything Allagan. An idea I had was something equivalent to soul crystals: nanites. Bear with me here, not traditional nanomachines, but tiny, biomechanical nanites that the Allagans somehow utilized to let someone become a spellcaster very quickly. I don't know, something to that effect.
Soul crystals have been around since at least Allagan times. They frequently mentioned in the Summoner quest lines. For a primer on how some magic works in Eorzea, I defer to this Sounsyy post.
Spellcasting and Aether Sources
While I've played around with the idea of magic being treated like an editable program of sorts (SCH/Arcanima for me), there are some perfectly good ways to get someone's knowledge on how to cast without having to bend lore! from my perspective, most of the current-day magic has likely been around much longer. Or has fallen out of use only to e rediscovered after one or more calamities. So it's not too much of a stretch that the Allags might've had Astromancy or something like it under another name.
Thanks for the link, I got some reading to do!
From what I've read, aether is split into "fire, wind, lightning, water, ice, and earth." Where would "celestial" aether, as mentioned in the AST quest, fit into that?
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Gegenji - 04-26-2017
I think "celestial" aether is the source of the aether, as opposed to what typing it is? It's sort of a variation on the Conjury and White/Black Magic method of taking aether from the planet rather than utilizing your own aetheric energies. Just, rather than pull the aether from Hydaelyn, you're drawing energy from the constellations above. Or something along that line, at least.
I say that because I'm very vaguely remembering something that might've made mention that the stars serve as more of a focus but you're still using your personal aether or something despite all the astrology talk. Could be totally misremembering, though. Wouldn't be the first time.
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Unnamed Mercenary - 04-26-2017
(04-26-2017, 05:56 PM)Siliconparody Wrote: Thanks for the link, I got some reading to do!
From what I've read, aether is split into "fire, wind, lightning, water, ice, and earth." Where would "celestial" aether, as mentioned in the AST quest, fit into that?
There are more aspects than that, actually!
Yes, we have our base elements, but there's also astral, umbral, and nonaspected magic as well. Show below is our "basic" elemental wheel as described in the game. (Formerly a book in the 1.0 THM guide, now readable in Gubal Library dungeon instances or out of game).
![[Image: gallery_288_159_2046.png.bc9b54f65176a23...fde437.png]](https://www.tale-ffxiv.com/boards/uploads/gallery/album_159/gallery_288_159_2046.png.bc9b54f65176a23a72a93cc446fde437.png)
Most of the spells and skills in the game are ~generally~ going to be Astral, as it's active whereas Umbral magic/skills lean towards being passive.
As far as Astromancy goes, Gegenji's on the spot. Similar to how an arcanist will channel aether through geometries, an Astrologian channels aether through the stars and their patterns. It's why there's power each of the constellations and why diurnal and nocturnal sects will aspect spells in different ways.
But here's where things get complicated. FFXIV's battle system isn't always in sync with its lore. In 1.0, a conjurer commanded all of the elements while a thaumaturge used astral and umbral magic. (Some of those spells have been recycled and some found their way to 2.0 arcanist and others are simple not available anymore). While not available to players, it's not as if these spells or abilities have gone away. (Although we can fudge with the lore and just say it's being taught differently now or something for the really adherent people).
But then, what makes mages unique from one another aside from their job-locked abilities? Primarily their aether source and how they manipulate that aether into a spell. If we can make any assumptions about the world, it's that the stars have probably moved a bit since the Allag's time. Or perhaps some stars have faded while others have brightened or the Allags drew power from different stars and/or constellations. I think you'd probably have some room to extrapolate here.
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Taijha Rosewood - 05-10-2017
How do they figure wind extinguishes fire? Wind is air, and oxygen is a fuel source for fire. Water or Earth would extinquish fire. If anything Wind would empower Fire.
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Kilieit - 05-10-2017
(wiggles hands) Giant tortoises can fly, if you wish hard enough then your god can literally physically manifest in front of you, and also FFXIV lore is based in 16th-18th century understandings of the world. If oxygen even exists in the world (rather than "wind aether" taking its place as a separate but similar substance), it probably hasn't been discovered yet.
In the world of FFXIV, it has been stated that wind-aspected aether extinguishes fire-aspected aether. For purposes of FFXIV roleplay, that is the rule you have to go by.
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Gegenji - 05-10-2017
(05-10-2017, 12:11 PM)Taijha Rosewood Wrote: How do they figure wind extinguishes fire? Wind is air, and oxygen is a fuel source for fire. Water or Earth would extinquish fire. If anything Wind would empower Fire.
![[Image: cc.gif]](http://stellar.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/cc.gif)
In all seriousness... oxygen, while part of the triangle for fire, isn't everything. It also includes the fuel (oxygen isn't the fuel source, something like wood or the like is the actual fuel) and heat. Wind can move the heat away from the fuel, which is why blowing out a candle works instead of just making the flame bigger.
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Taijha Rosewood - 05-10-2017
Air is a fuel source, I didn't say it was the only source. Which why if you suck out all the air from a room that's on fire, the fire will go out. Or some fire suppression systems use foam to smother the fire cutting it off from oxygen. It's also why backdraft is such a huge danger for firefighters. If you're cutting into a house that has a fire in it, it can explode into a huge fireball because it suddenly got access to more oxygen.
And yes, you're right, blowing out candles does snuff the fire, but that's more of stronger force suppressing a weaker one. If air/wind always snuffed out fire we would use wind cannons to fight fires.... also people blow on sparks or embers when trying to start a campfire or the like.
Rennaisance era alchemy which this is partially based on didn't have a concept of oxygen, but they did have observations and putting out fires using air/wind wasn't one of them.
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Kilieit - 05-10-2017
I think my point is more that you can't always rely on assumptions based on IRL observations. We have to go by what windows we have into the game's world, not the real world.
The foremost scholars in FFXIV's world say that wind-aspected aether extinguishes fire-aspected aether. So, it probably does. By what mechanism? Are they mistaken somehow? Who knows - all we can extrapolate is that it can't behave exactly like IRL air and fire do. We have to look to observations in the game itself for anything more in-depth - not IRL observations.
TL;DR: No, it doesn't make sense IRL. That's because it's fantasy.
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Gegenji - 05-10-2017
I meant it wasn't the fuel in regards to the common triangle used to show what is needed for a fire, for simple clarification's sake:
![[Image: 220px-Fire_triangle.svg.png]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/20/Fire_triangle.svg/220px-Fire_triangle.svg.png)
And if you want the most real answer - Wind extinguishes Fire in this arcane rock-paper-scissors situation because the developers and lore-writers decided the elemental circle was going to work that way. Maybe there's something special about magic wind that's better than normal wind; maybe it's more of a vacuum effect and thus removes the oxygen rather than introduce more of it. Who's to say?
This is also a world with dragons, the Echo, islands that float in the sky, people that can jump hundreds of feet in the air, and beings that can burst into existence if you want it bad enough (and have enough magic crystals). If you can suspend your disbelief for all that but "wind putting out fire" is where you draw the line, I don't know what to tell you.
RE: Astrology, and Allagan Astromancy - Valence - 05-11-2017
Aspected magical elements aren't equal to nature, wild elements.
If you throw water aspected aether at fire aspected aether, they will have a neutral aetherial relation, so no aetherial reaction together whatsoever. It's totally counter intuitive, but that's how the elemental wheel works.
It starts to get interesting though when your aspected aether actually cause a wildfire somewhere, that you can probably quench with standard water, as expected, or bolster with the right amount of wind.
But yes it's clumsy I find on their behalf. The simple idea to use water AND ice in an elemental wheel makes it borked by nature since both elements are kinda redundant. But those are the usual FF elements of the licence so...