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+--- Thread: [Discussion] How... "clean" do you think everyone is? (/showthread.php?tid=20920)
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How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Arashin Kujqai - 11-11-2017
So it just occurred to me while running through the game a third time (idk what's gotten into me in alt making but it's beneficial I suppose) that there's probably no particulars in dental work or plumbing in some areas. This mostly hit me when I hit the east when a certain pink haired Au Ra told me to wash my hands. I had a moment where I wondered ".... I mean, I guess I could find some water from a river.. is there soap or some herb that would clean well with? And I wouldn't want to taint their drinking water.. I guess rivers keep moving and prevent that but still".
Among my rambling I also remembered a small side joke with a hyur claiming he got "the crotch rot" from a couple women. Call me late to consider this but I guess I'm just curious how clean everyone is in both continents of the world. How common it must be for people to have diseases, be covered in muck/soot/monster guts, or in general to bathe in more than just water. We have showers as furnishings, there's hot springs and waterfalls shown with NPC's taking showers in them... but how about brushing their teeth or etc? I'm sure they could find some herbs that create these elements but I've yet to see anything mentioned in game in such manners.
And all that aside, how about your characters you RP? How clean/dirty are they realistically with their lifestyles? How about their clothing too?
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Shoshopu - 11-11-2017
I feel like a lack of evidence shouldn't be taken as evidence to a lack thereof. Hygiene is one of those things that's just overlooked in a lot of stories, like characters needing to use the bathroom or something.
As for my characters, I feel like Shoshopu probably doesn't bathe more often than once every couple days. Bathing daily was probably far from convenient for her family growing up (given that they live on tents on top of tortoises and wander around the desert) but it's probably easier to hunt when you're not super stank. Not that she was one of the hunters, but her mother was from a merchant family too and they probably have higher standards that were imparted to her as well.
My elezen Eaubront probably at least runs some water through his hair as close to daily as possible. He's kind of vain that way and likes to keep it nice. Only tangentially related but I'd love to him to have a nice beard but the elezen don't have many good options there if you're not using the Old face... at the same time there's no shaving razors laying around, but you can still take all the smooth-faced NPCs running around as evidence that shaving is a common thing.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Valence - 11-11-2017
Soap isn't exactly new IRL either. It goes way back to Antiquity and saw more or less consistent use until today. This doesn't mean by any means that everyone washed themselves on a regular basis, like, say, the poorest social classes since soap wasn't probably the cheapest commodity, but they still had the possibility to wash themselves with natural water sources. You don't necessarily need soap to keep yourself more or less clean.
Some cultures and civilizations of course, were a lot more into baths than others. Of course, ignorance also lead to weird beliefs like ancient egyptians thinking that applying human and animal feces on their wounds would help them heal better so... There is that too I guess.
Dental care was probably a whole other matter, with some cultures doing it better than others, like romans washing their mouths with alcohol and wine, while greeks did it with... urine. So yeah. Mileage tended to vary a lot. Middle age and Renaissance... Let's say nobody cared and they just pulled rotten teeth out. Although that until very recently people consumed overall a lot less sweets, but well. Still.Â
Arabs though, brushed their teeth with a powder (old toothpaste), and developed a whole lot of ways to wash their teeth/mouths especially after dentistry, and after every lunch, with medical schools teaching about dental care too. Teeth "pullers" got kicked out of the land.
With all that said now, in lore we know that Hingans (and probably Domans as well) are rather fond of their onsens and public baths, as seen in Kugane among other locales. We also know that La Noscea boasts places like Bronze Lake that look more akin to hydrotherapy, but are still basically, water/mineral based baths and body care. Eorzeans also seem to be fond of oil, unless Godbert Manderville and his son are to be considered too eccentric to make a rule out of it...
I'm sure I forgot about various plants, herbs, or other things mentioned in lore ingame here or there.
Now though, does everyone take the same care of their cleanliness the same way? The wealthy elite and the poorest classes? Citizenry from Ishgard or from Hingashi? I don't know.
As for teeth... uhhh. Perhaps.
Either way Eorzea always seemed to have included a lot of contemporary habits and traditions, and sometimes way of life, so maybe one could make a case about that.
Hard to tell in my view.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Sounsyy - 11-11-2017
Probably depends a lot on where you are and what your means are. My immediate thought reading this was that bit in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the peasant says he must be a king because he doesn't have shit all over him. Which, it's probably not far from the truth in some areas in Eorzea. There're baths, there're latrines, there's plumbing (in some areas) but access to those luxuries might not always be possible. The residents of Drybone might have to use that well in their town center to gather bath water versus someone living in Ul'dah or the Goblet which has plumbing. In Limsa, soap seems to be a luxury item, but out at sea on a ship the only bath is what you pull up in buckets from the seas.
So, as far as an individual character goes - it comes down to what their means are and where they are currently. If you're out on the Steppe, you're probably using one of the khaals (rivers) to bathe using lye or floatstones, etc. In Kugane though, bath houses and hot springs are all the rage. Brushing teeth probably isn't something that's super common though? It might be done, but I don't think I've ever seen a reference to it that I can recall off the top of my head?
As for my character, Sounsyy, who spends most of her time at sea on a Lominsan galleon, hygiene is not her top priority. She sweats with her crew and work clothes get tossed to her cabin floor at night and reused the next day. The only bath is the brine, so she generally returns from a voyage smelling of salt, sweat, and booze. On land, she’s much more cleanly. She has access to a bath and soaps, and she really enjoys a long soak.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Arashin Kujqai - 11-11-2017
Interesting, definitely sounds more like a luxury. I don't think I've seen any older characters missing teeth or claiming to have from unhealthy dental hygiene though. Probably just a model limitation to make characters that'd be missing some teeth or etc but it does make me wonder. I suppose healing has some elements of cleansing in it in regards to cleaning wounds of toxins and etc to some degree too.
Kinda makes me wish when Cirina asks me to wash my hands, that they should make you go all the way to the river to do so lol. My other char I figure I can have him get dirtied up in one outfit when hunting or etc, while after he's done and it's time to offer trade or go to town, he can put on his more standard clothing/poncho. There's probably laborers that offer washing and drying out someone's clothing around every map somewhere. Sounds like it'd make a cute job/character for someone to offer cleaning clothing and then someone undresses in front of them right there lol. Given certain characters/races of course, some might not care about hiding behind something to undress. But I'm rambling again now.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Firefly - 11-12-2017
Cleanliness isn't as related to technology as you'd think.
Plumbing and waterworks are definitely possible with Eorzea's current technology level, and baths are likely very easy to find -- public, natural, or private. Contrary to popular belief, bathing and cleanliness was greatly sought after in antiquity.
People bathed as often as they could, be it in a stream, a bath drawn from a water source, or a public bath (a la the Romans).
There's numerous references to bathing and personal hygiene routines, from the implied (plenty of bathing women in Greek Mythology, told as a very common/ordinary situation), to the explicit (Scandinavians were said to bathe frequently).
In general, humans have always had a desire to seek cleanliness.
Regarding hand-washing: If you can find drinking water, you can find hand-washing water.
Regarding dental hygiene:
Firstly, dental problems wouldn't be as big of a problem in a pre-industrial/globalised society as it is now; due to there being less sugary foods.
Further, oral/dental hygiene is something that can be maintained with pre-industrial tools fairly easily, and is something that we, as social creatures, will innately pursue. Ancients with access to mint frequently consumed it to have better-smelling breath; and garlic in many cultures has been avoided due to its bad breath issues.
Cleaning teeth is also possible with toothbrushes or toothpaste. Arabs used 'miswak' -- a twig of a specific type of tree, which they basically chewed on to floss, remove plaque, and freshen their breath.
tl;dr: There are lots of ways to keep clean without modern showers/plumbing/etc. and they'd be very accessible to the common person in some form
Though, imo, with Eorzea's current tech level, I wouldn't even worry about it. Showers and plumbing do exist in lore.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Arashin Kujqai - 11-12-2017
^ I can see all that. It's less if it exists, but rather how available it would be to the common adventurer. The locations some live in also seem as though they would never find natural means of bathing. Though I guess with NPC's that don't move, we have to assume at some point they leave and go for a town that may offer such luxuries or at least find sources of water to use.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Savo - 11-12-2017
/em holds up a full set of claws to represent for the un-apologetically filthy.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - LiadansWhisper - 11-12-2017
I'm not sure access to soap would actually be difficult. Lye soap, for instance, is ridiculously easy to make - it's lye (which is obtained by leaching ashes containing potash...hmm, where have I heard of that one before?), animal or plant fat (tallow, lard, or something similar to palm oil), and water. That's it.
It's not hard to make, and was commonly produced in house in frontier areas.
Before there was lye soap, it's known that the Greeks and Romans used Olive Oil as a type of cleanser. You'd massage it on, and squeegie it (I'm not even joking) off with a scraper. The oil would carry impurities with it. They also made great use of Rosemary, which has antibiotic properties.
So even without widespread availability of soap, most likely cooking oils are available and could be used in such a fashion.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Caspar - 11-13-2017
Despite being poor and constantly wandering about, my character is actually a bit fastidious about cleanliness.
It was inculcated in her from an early age by her Master, and in the Doman manner, which, depending on whether it's Japanese style or Chinese style because of the game's weird identity crisis, obviously takes cleanliness very seriously. Usually it fell to her to draw water and heat her Master's bath after a drink. After heating it to piping hot, she would usually get a shot at it when it was already lukewarm some time later. If she was in a good mood, they'd go in together. Virara still prefers the bath about as hot as possible without being deleterious to one's health.
So at any chance she gets to avail herself of running water, she will wash whether she's allowed to or not. Sneaking into a bathhouse without paying is not uncommon; she grew up hiding a lot, and can hold her breath a long time for someone with such small lungs. If she can't she'll use rivers, fountains, stray buckets of water. She prefers the hot springs when she can find them because it allows her a chance to soak and massage her hands in the water, which often ache due to her constant training. She hates sweet foods, so her teeth are in good shape. Because her hairstyle was given to her by Master, she takes good care of it despite it having more upkeep than the rest of her appearance. She could care less about her looks, but anything given by Master is almost sacred.
That being said, beggars can't be choosers, and she will endure being filthy for a long while if necessary, most often during long forays into the wild or training trips. The other reason why Virara insists on being clean is that a distinct scent makes it harder to go unnoticed when hiding. Her nose is very sensitive, so she is immediately aware of others hiding in her presence if they haven't washed.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Zhavi - 11-13-2017
Regarding teeth -
Had a neat article from one of the Inuit elders who spoke about how before western goods became readily available, they never had issues with their teeth that we'd consider common or normal today. Why? Most of what they ate didn't contain a lot of sugar or other refined products that help the bad bacteria breed in your mouth to create cavities and such.
That said, soap isn't the only way people have kept themselves clean. Sweat lodge and a scraper; I've also seen references to using sand as an abrasive to get the worst off. Oil and a scraper, too.
I mean guys, when you think about the stereotypes about gross city living way back when, keep in mind that ideas about hygiene historically have sometimes included notions that washing with water spread diseases. Too, there's a big difference between city living and living in the bush. What's considered proper social etiquette regarding hygiene also affects how "clean" someone might be, as well as cultural notions of what constitutes "clean."
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Valence - 11-13-2017
Yeah but Inuits have such a special diet that I don't think applying it to more or less "standard" pre industrial revolution diet is fair.
Fact remains that people before contemporary dental care had rotten teeth, even with a lot less sugar than today, which helped them not to lose them all before their twenties I guess. Some civilizations, again, fared better than others, of course.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Charity322 - 11-13-2017
Having just got to Kugane and I keep hearing about all the pleasure houses, the '' on clean put my mind in totally the wrong place. XD
Because apparently I am a total pervert. Can you actually go into any of these houses?
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Zhavi - 11-13-2017
(11-13-2017, 05:16 AM)Valence Wrote: Yeah but Inuits have such a special diet that I don't think applying it to more or less "standard" pre industrial revolution diet is fair.
Fact remains that people before contemporary dental care had rotten teeth, even with a lot less sugar than today, which helped them not to lose them all before their twenties I guess. Some civilizations, again, fared better than others, of course.
The issue is that you can't just apply a general one-thing-fits-all to everywhere. People tend to look at the big cities in western europe in specific time periods, and apply that to every single group of people in every time period ever, and that simply does not work. What's their diet like? What's their idea of hygiene? What's their idea of normal? What's their idea of appropriate hygienic practice?
To say that "I don't think applying it to more or less 'standard' pre industrial revolution diet is fair" of one group and then assume that another group is "standard" is missing the point and really, really defaulting back to that western bias.
RE: How... "clean" do you think everyone is? - Valence - 11-13-2017
Well if you read what I wrote in my first post you will probably notice that I'm the first one to point out all those cultural differences. Let's not fall into the opposite extreme.
I still stand by my point that Inuits are pretty far fetched and extreme case to take as a solid example considering their environment and living conditions, but sure.
Edit: I mean, come on, we know what Eorzeans eat. It's not inuit meat/fat diet. It contains sugar and sweets at various degrees like most historical civilizations that didn't live in insanely extreme climates.