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BMage underpowered! - Aeiteil Strand - 06-16-2013
So, I was just reading on the main FF14 forums, and a lot of people seem to think that Black Mages are underpowered! This makes me sad =(
People are saying that thunder is the best element (I don't know why) and with me wanting to main fire spells, this leads me to be sad.
Can anyone clarify possibly?
RE: BMage underpowered! - Lizzo - 06-16-2013
Don't know what to tell you Fire as I didn't get into the beta. I think Thunder (Thundaga) is usually the most powerful spell.
I'm kind of in the same boat as you, I'm wanting my main to be quite powerful with ice magic (Blizzard, Blizzara, etc.). However, even though the spells may not be as powerful as others in terms of fighting, that doesn't mean we can't just RP that our chosen element is better practiced by our characters.
RE: BMage underpowered! - Olofantur - 06-16-2013
Just for clarifications sake, was this information based on 1.0 experiences?
in 1.0, I rarely felt "under powered" rather I was subject to the elemental resistances of certain enemies, and I did use some terrain and debuffs to maintain survivability.
From what I was able to see in 2.0 (which is admittedly little). Good management of the Umbral Ice and Astral Fire Debuff, along with some other spells (such as the Thunder DoT). Rarely left me wanting for more damage.
I would also add that it seemed many a Thamturge was operating from awfully close to their opponent. Made me scratch my head a little considering one of the first class quests emphasizes staying at least an arms breadth away.
On the subject of Fire as a spell type, it was (at least in 1.0) primarily focused on rolling up into AOE damage, Thunder aligned was more potent for single target.
Hope that helps, feel free to ask for clarification, i'm still in boot up mode.
RE: BMage underpowered! - Aysun - 06-16-2013
Just remember that your character's IC favored magic does not need to be supported by game mechanics. Thunder may be the spell you use most heavily in your BLM rotation during actual endgame game play, but that does NOT have to reflect your IC strengths.
RE: BMage underpowered! - Varus - 06-16-2013
BLMs were friggin' amazing in 1.0.
I remember there was a video of a BLM only party that killed Garuda in like 3 minutes flat.
RE: BMage underpowered! - Rhostel - 06-16-2013
Those people are spewing streams of nonsense that have nothing to do with how Thaumaturges (and by extension Black Mages) work now.
The ARR design means you need to use all three elements to be effective, however there's nothing wrong with playing up a fondness for Fire, as Fire is going to be your big damage dealer. You just need to lay down an occasional Thunder for the DoT, and switch to Blizzard when your MP gets low.
RE: BMage underpowered! - Aeiteil Strand - 06-16-2013
OK, well thank you all for the clarification. I have no knowledge on the debuffs such as astral fire or something, but I am assuming it lowers resistance to that element or something!
I guess I don't have to play with my characters preferred element, though it would have been a nice touch =)
Also, as long as being a BM feels like I am blowing people up, then I am good.
Thank you all so much! Much love!
RE: BMage underpowered! - FreelanceWizard - 06-16-2013
So, the way the 2.0 THM works is that you get one of two buffs based on the element of the spell you've cast last. The Fire buff stops MP regeneration, but increases Fire spell damage. The Ice buff increases MP regeneration. You get a spell, Transpose, that switches the buff between elements.
So, the trick to playing THM is balancing these two effects with other things you need to do. One strategy that seems to work is to nuke with Fire until you're low on MP, then use Transpose or nuke with Blizzard to start regenerating MP.
People who say that THM is underpowered are used to playing the melee DPS classes (especially LNC and PGL, which are relatively easy) and don't especially understand the mechanics. That said, I personally feel that THM damage is bit low given their squishiness relative to the DoW DPS classes. (I also think the DoMs and classes in general need more ability crossover, but that's just me. It seems like THM has it better than CNJ, since CNJ can't use most THM abilities, but THM can use almost all of the CNJ ones.)
RE: BMage underpowered! - Olofantur - 06-16-2013
(06-16-2013, 01:56 PM)Fire Olive Wrote: OK, well thank you all for the clarification. I have no knowledge on the debuffs such as astral fire or something, but I am assuming it lowers resistance to that element or something!
I guess I don't have to play with my characters preferred element, though it would have been a nice touch =)
Also, as long as being a BM feels like I am blowing people up, then I am good.
Thank you all so much! Much love!
No problem, as an additional note, the effects known as "Astral Fire" and "Umbral Ice" are actually buffs applied to yourself as the result of casting damaging spells.
A quick point before going into how they work, its beta so everything subject to change.
Astral Fire: the result of casting a Fire Spell (or elemental switching, more on that below). A buff that lasts for 10 seconds (iirc, maybe 12?) makes further damaging spells cost more mana and do more damage. It also stops your in combat mana regen. As a note, the counter Ice spell actually costs less mana while this is up.
Umbral Ice: also the result of Ice aligned spells, 10 seconds as well, makes additional spells do less damage, and cost less mana. In combat mana regen is in effect. Fire spell does cost less mana with this effect up.
A few things to keep in mind:
The casting of a spell outside these two types does not consume or alter the buff (yet, maybe some additional types further down the line
?).If you want to gain the opposite buff you have two options either cast the opposite spell once to remove the buff to return to neutral then cast the one you want. Or you can use the Transpose ability which, while it only has effect when of the buffs is already up has the added bonus of resetting the timer on the buff.
The result (at least for me) was a cycle between regen phase and a damage phase, kind of like the thunder/thundra/thundaga cycling in 1.0. I usually started with Ice for the slow, followed up with the Thunder Dot (since the bulk damage comes from the tick its not a huge waste to cast it with Umbral Ice up.), Used Transpose to get Astral Fire, Fire enough to get the enemy below 10% while keeping Thunder up if on a longer fight, then Transposing to Umbral Ice for Regen.
Best of luck!
RE: BMage underpowered! - Aeiteil Strand - 06-16-2013
Oh ok that is cool then. I will get to burst with my fire and hopefully it will be dead by then!
RE: BMage underpowered! - Gospel Gestalt - 06-16-2013
I can tell you right now from my experience of playing to level 20 as Thaumaturge in Beta Phase 3 that it is perfectly fine. They aren't overpowered, nor underpowered. They are balanced.
The potency of the THM nukes are pretty much equal in potency to that of a melees damage. The thing that sets THM apart though is their early access to AoE and traits that give them an unlimited amount of MP if used properly (Something that CON cannot do). I will admit the spell potency to MP cost ratio for Astral Fire nukes feels a tad high but once you get to level 20 and learn the trait Enhanced Aetherial Magick, the tide starts to turn more in your favor because the trait gives your THM a 10% bonus to all nukes PLUS allows for the stacking of a second Umbral Ice or Astral Fire. It is this second stacking of the Fire and Ice trait which greatly scales your damage and further allows for absurd amounts of MP regen.
In the early levels THM actually can play RDM of sorts by equipping Cure and spamming it while under the influence of Umbral Ice. You will never run out of MP and can essentially cure tank on par with a MRD or GLA. An example would be with the level 15 fight against the white demon. You can outright cure tank through his attacks while poisoned just from spamming cure and tossing in a Blizzard II every 10 seconds and you will still have full MP.
There are other strategies I could go over but the gist of my post is to say that THM/BLM is anything but underpowered. The job has its advantages and weaknesses like the others and if you think outside the box, you'll be able to do some pretty crazy things with it which other classes could only wish they could do.
RE: BMage underpowered! - Aeiteil Strand - 06-16-2013
(06-16-2013, 04:45 PM)Gospel Gestalt Wrote: I can tell you right now from my experience of playing to level 20 as Thaumaturge in Beta Phase 3 that it is perfectly fine. They aren't overpowered, nor underpowered. They are balanced.That is interesting with the cure tanking. I would love to experiment more with this once I get access to the game. Good thoughts!
The potency of the THM nukes are pretty much equal in potency to that of a melees damage. The thing that sets THM apart though is their early access to AoE and traits that give them an unlimited amount of MP if used properly (Something that CON cannot do). I will admit the spell potency to MP cost ratio for Astral Fire nukes feels a tad high but once you get to level 20 and learn the trait Enhanced Aetherial Magick, the tide starts to turn more in your favor because the trait gives your THM a 10% bonus to all nukes PLUS allows for the stacking of a second Umbral Ice or Astral Fire. It is this second stacking of the Fire and Ice trait which greatly scales your damage and further allows for absurd amounts of MP regen.
In the early levels THM actually can play RDM of sorts by equipping Cure and spamming it while under the influence of Umbral Ice. You will never run out of MP and can essentially cure tank on par with a MRD or GLA. An example would be with the level 15 fight against the white demon. You can outright cure tank through his attacks while poisoned just from spamming cure and tossing in a Blizzard II every 10 seconds and you will still have full MP.
There's other strategies I could go over but the gist of my post is to say that THM/BLM is anything but underpowered. The job has its advantages and weaknesses like the others and if you think outside the box, you'll be able to do some pretty crazy things with it which other classes could only wish they could do.
RE: BMage underpowered! - Cornet Espoir - 06-16-2013
I agree I got THM to 23 I felt that they were fine. At first they felt underpowered but as I leveled I started to feel that less and less. Once they get thunder 2 they can stack it with thunder 1 to have to dot attacks. My whole setup was fire fire fire until I ran out of mp then tranpose to change to umbral ice to get mp back. Also cure on a THM works wonders.
RE: BMage underpowered! - Folken - 06-16-2013
A note on cure tanking, before you get the wrong impression.
This generally works only for Solo play and likely works in the first dungeons in each city. However, THM will always lack the necessary HP pool and physical defense required to fully tank. They will not be able to take stronger attacks as easily without these things, and they will not be able to keep their heals cast consistently if they're trying to tank multiple mobs. They will have their spells interrupted far too much to be reliable.
So just want to nip that in the bud before people start throwing around THM as some kind of viable tank.
A GLD can do the very same thing with cure cross classed onto him, replenishing his MP once he has access to Riot Blade. And even then he will not be self sufficient enough for harder and more proper tanking encounters.
RE: BMage underpowered! - Aeiteil Strand - 06-16-2013
Ahh, did not know magic got interrupted, so thank you for clearing that up =)
Is there dodge tanking in this game?