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RP and multi-classing - Curtis West - 07-02-2013
As I was doing some browsing for a potential class to settle on with my character, I noticed a trend here. Maybe it's because of the traditional Final Fantasy job roles ("Hey I am the white mage!") but it seems people tend to pick one job to be their main to RP with, and level (or completely ignore) the other stuff OOC'ly.Â
Coming from a non-FF background I must ask... why?
It seems to me that a talented warrior (or mage) would be pretty good at nearly any weapon. It doesn't add up to me that a character would be good at archery but not any good at any other type of fighting... and this goes double for close range combat. The mentality of the player seems to be of that old FF mindset where a character is the job they play. In this context, where one can switch jobs so easily though that mindset feels outdated.
My analogy is sports related. Many of the NFL players are gifted athletes. In fact, in High School over 50% of all NFL players were playing Quarterback. They were simply great athletes, the best in their high school. Once they get to college, they specialize more, and once in the league they play the best suited position based on team needs and their best skills.
A gifted warrior (or simply a hard working one) is very similar in my opinion. She can wield most weapons above average, but when in a group with similarly skilled warriors, she must take up her absolute best weapon that suits the party.
To double up on the sports analogy, athletes that go into Mixed Martial Arts seem to outperform other martial art athletes that train only in one particular style. This relates to the common thought of "If one trains with one weapon, they are likely more skilled than someone who trains with multiple weapons." In theory, it sounds right, but in reality cross-training seems to beat out stand alone training.Â
What would make this sports analogy unbearable is this: Many NFL players train in MMA to gain an edge on the field. Meaning that combination of various sports (not just styles within a sport) seems to improve the performance of athletes.
Just like a great NFL player is really a talented athlete who went into NFL rather than being exclusively good at football, I see a kick ass pugilist as an awesome warrior who happens to be using their knuckles!
Given this information, I am curious what other people think on the matter. Will your character play an overall good warrior/mage who kills things with just about anything, or a more classic FF role?
I still have no main class picked out for Curtis, but I will likely do whatever fits the group I am in, for the reasons I outlined; there is no need to pick just one.
RE: RP and multi-classing - Naunet - 07-02-2013
I'm definitely a supporter of "multi-classing", as you called it, in roleplay. It's something I've done a couple times in RP in previous MMOs, and something my partner has done quite a bit. We do it when it makes sense for a character's story. It can definitely be extremely fun, especially when there's a dichotomy of skill in play (such as a warrior-type character learning magic).
I don't think anyone is unnecessarily limiting themselves by keeping a character to one "class", though. Sometimes it's appropriate for a character, and sometimes it isn't.
RE: RP and multi-classing - Uther - 07-02-2013
(07-02-2013, 02:05 AM)Curtis West Wrote: As I was doing some browsing for a potential class to settle on with my character, I noticed a trend here. Maybe it's because of the traditional Final Fantasy job roles ("Hey I am the white mage!") but it seems people tend to pick one job to be their main to RP with, and level (or completely ignore) the other stuff OOC'ly.Â
Coming from a non-FF background I must ask... why?
It seems to me that a talented warrior (or mage) would be pretty good at nearly any weapon. It doesn't add up to me that a character would be good at archery but not any good at any other type of fighting... and this goes double for close range combat. The mentality of the player seems to be of that old FF mindset where a character is the job they play. In this context, where one can switch jobs so easily though that mindset feels outdated.
My analogy is sports related. Many of the NFL players are gifted athletes. In fact, in High School over 50% of all NFL players were playing Quarterback. They were simply great athletes, the best in their high school. Once they get to college, they specialize more, and once in the league they play the best suited position based on team needs and their best skills.
A gifted warrior (or simply a hard working one) is very similar in my opinion. She can wield most weapons above average, but when in a group with similarly skilled warriors, she must take up her absolute best weapon that suits the party.
To double up on the sports analogy, athletes that go into Mixed Martial Arts seem to outperform other martial art athletes that train only in one particular style. This relates to the common thought of "If one trains with one weapon, they are likely more skilled than someone who trains with multiple weapons." In theory, it sounds right, but in reality cross-training seems to beat out stand alone training.Â
What would make this sports analogy unbearable is this: Many NFL players train in MMA to gain an edge on the field. Meaning that combination of various sports (not just styles within a sport) seems to improve the performance of athletes.
Given this information, I am curious what other people think on the matter. Will your character play an overall good warrior/mage who kills things with just about anything, or a more classic FF role?
I still have no main class picked out for Curtis, but I will likely do whatever fits the group I am in, for the reasons I outlined; there is no need to pick just one.
You're not wrong.
It's kind of shaky ground. If I RP a warrior who is outstanding in combat with an axe and has been doing it his whole life, then I switch to black mage because I'd like to try it IC, a lot of people would cry "God-moding!"
However, fuck that. People should be able to play what they want. I personally like to keep a sense of realism in my class choice, though. Here's my example.
Uther Skystrider was raised in Ishgard. That alone points its finger at dragoon, which is what I'm planning on. I plan on being the quintessential dragoon. I plan on RPers thinking "Uther" when someone says "dragoon". However, that's not because I only want to play one class. It makes the most sense to me that he starts off that way. If I start him lancer, he will begin the game in Gridania, which is the closest city-state to Ishgard geographically. So it all kind of fits together.
After a time of 'gooning it up (that's what I'm calling "playing a dragoon" now), I do plan to start experiencing more options with Uther ICly. I already have set up roads for him to go Warrior and Paladin. Possibly even Monk or Archer. I don't think Uther will be dabbling in magic, though. He doesn't know anything about that shiz.
Anyways, that's rambling and I apologize. I agree that characters shouldn't be their classes, but the game is highly based in combat so it's a little understandable to RP a specialist style character.
Not sure if that post made any sense. It's 1 a.m. where I am. Whatever, man.
RE: RP and multi-classing - Eva - 07-02-2013
I think I have remarked on this topic at least once before so I'm going to spare the longwinded rant and skip right to the...
TL;DR: RPing that you have expertise (not to be confused with varying levels of experience) at a large number of disciplines may be construed as Mary Sue behavior. Having multiple areas of interest and multiple skills at which to practice makes sense and makes for a multidimensional character as long as those talents are at varying and realistic levels of skill. That's my 2 gil.
RE: RP and multi-classing - Curtis West - 07-02-2013
Haha yeah I can see circumstance playing into what you start off doing, for sure. That said if Uther is a talented warrior (or just one who works super hard and doesn't spare himself) I don't see why he'd not be great with the axe, sword, or whatever else. In my mind at least, it's not the use of a particular type of weapon that decides the overall skill, it's the character's innate physical ability.Â
*Edited something small in the OP that I missed.
RE: RP and multi-classing - Uther - 07-02-2013
(07-02-2013, 02:32 AM)Eva Wrote: Having multiple areas of interest and multiple skills at which to practice makes sense and makes for a multidimensional character as long as those talents are at varying and realistic levels of skill.
Couldn't have said it better myself, Eva.
And Curtis, my plan was that Uther would learn to use a sword and shield for paladin. The handling of the weapon itself would be awkward at first, since he's used to polearms, but he's already an experienced close quarters fighter so the change wouldn't be out of control for him.Â
If I were a black mage and decided to be a warrior one day and didn't even put in effort to explain the change in combat style, weapon wielding, or even how he handles the weight of the armor, I could see that turning some heads. Really though, any change can be made as long as the person doing it at least gives it a reasonable explanation IMO.
Some people just like sticking to one class. I don't get it either, despite dragoon being far-and-away my main focus for my character.
EDIT: Don't know why I'm explaining all of Uther's plans to you, Curtis. We're in the same linkshell. You'll see it all eventually.
RE: RP and multi-classing - Varus - 07-02-2013
To double up on the sports analogy, athletes that go into Mixed Martial Arts seem to outperform other martial art athletes that train only in one particular style. This relates to the common thought of "If one trains with one weapon, they are likely more skilled than someone who trains with multiple weapons." In theory, it sounds right, but in reality cross-training seems to beat out stand alone training.Â
---
It should be noted that combat is very situation make it extremely hard to generalize this. To expand, in Mixed Martial Arts, there are a key set of moves that are far more effective than others. Generally speaking these moves originate from boxing, judo, kickboxing, karate, and muay thai.
---
Back to the point: yes, cross training gives you the flexibility to adapt to the ever-changing situations in combat. However, in a "fair duel with the same weapons" in which one's skill set is limited to that weapon, the advantage of cross training becomes moot.
Using Tyonis as an example: he is more than capable of skillfully using a sword, axe, spear, bow, mace, shield, or his bare hands in combat. But he identifies best as a duel-wielding swordsman.
RE: RP and multi-classing - PeriasGift - 07-02-2013
I personally think that those that specialize and focus in one particular area are going to be more proficient in it on nearly all levels compared to someone that studied a bit of everything, or several things. You sacrifice focused talent for all-around versatility. In my opinion, one isn't better than the other. They're just different! I'd make sure that both the people that have their characters focus on one discipline and those that don't bear that in mind. No matter what each has strengths and weaknesses!
RE: RP and multi-classing - LandStander - 07-02-2013
(07-02-2013, 02:32 AM)Eva Wrote: I think I have remarked on this topic at least once before so I'm going to spare the longwinded rant and skip right to the...Exactly what I was going to sayÂ
TL;DR: Â RPing that you have expertise (not to be confused with varying levels of experience) at a large number of disciplines may be construed as Mary Sue behavior. Â Having multiple areas of interest and multiple skills at which to practice makes sense and makes for a multidimensional character as long as those talents are at varying and realistic levels of skill. Â That's my 2 gil.
. I don't mind a character who might have skill in a few other talents. Such as a monk who might dabble a bit in white magic or so (I guess it kind of makes sense if you want to consider skills such as second wind), but I don't really think it would be wise to have a character who has mastered 4 or 5 different classes because of what Eva said.
RE: RP and multi-classing - Caysen - 07-02-2013
I think you have to find a good middle ground when it comes to multi-classing. There at lots of classes that are very different but could easily work together if you put some effort into why the character knows the different skills.
Melee type characters could easily be skilled in several weapons, and mage types often study more than one school of magic. A Paladin type character could take up White Mage out of their desire to protect people in any way they can, because at their core both jobs are about keeping other people safe. A character could also be both a Monk and a Black Mage, both jobs are centered around the ability to control the aether within one's body. They could reasonably be skilled at different ways of doing it. You could come up with many more reasons than those. Maybe a character learns something out of necessity, or maybe they have some huge life event and decide to change their ways completely and leave behind their warrior ways to become a healer.
There's always a line though, and it's really easy to take it too far. If someone is the kind of player that levels everything to 50 just because they can, RPing that they're amazingly skilled at absolutely everything IC is rather godmody.
For my character Caysen, I'll be RPing him as skilled to some varying degree in all the classes I play on him. This will include all magic classes and ranged classes. I have IC reasons for him to know all that he does, and different levels of skill IC even though OOC the jobs will probably all be capped eventually. For example, he's a mage type first and foremost, so he studies all schools of magic and those jobs are the ones he's most skilled at. Being a Miqo'te he's got some skill in archery as well, specifically leading to Bard where he'll mix it with magic. If we get a gun/Musketeer class in the future he'll have some skill in that too, first because guns are somewhat similar to archery, and second because he's from Limsa and would have grown up around it, so it's reasonable that he would have a least learned to use one some. But he would by no means be as skilled with a bow or gun as he is in magic. If they add a sword using magic class like Red Mage, he'll take that up IC after learning some rudimentary sword techniques from his Paladin friend Ryuki.
Other classes, melee classes and such, I'll be playing on an alt. I'm interested in playing Monk, but it doesn't fit Caysen at all.
RE: RP and multi-classing - Kyatai - 07-02-2013
The closest thing I can relate to this is my Tour of Duty in SWG:
In the beginning, you could hybridize. You could literally become whatever you wanted your character to be. My fave (and what my character identified with) was as a Teras Kasi Master and Pikeman. (aka unarmed martial artist/knuckles & polearm)
Now, did that mean that in my 3+ years in SWG I didn't have her master just about every other profession? Nope. I did. And yes, I did it IC.
BUT...
I min/maxed the impact it had on her and her character development.
For example:
She can cook, but not spectacularly.
She can use stimpacks and had some Combat medic-like awareness of healing- but was no physician.
She can dance, but just enough to blend in formal occasions to get close to her mark. Her mastery in instruments became a strong appreciation for certain types of music.
She can image design- well because that is the single BEST way to blend in as an agent.
She had connections to Spynet as a contracted Bounty Hunter- but she wasn't Bothan and didn't have good connections there.
She could do a bit of splicing- to get computer info- but wasn't really a Slicer per se.
She had an understanding of gene splicing- but all her Bioengineered pets were purchased/given to her.
And so on.
So each thing she did in her overall development created an 'aspect' of her- but she was only a true master and skilled at Unarmed and the polearm (specifically the Zabrak traditional zhaboka- or 'crescent staff'). IC wise, she got crap from others because she was completely anti-blaster and hand-held weapons. In a world where THE thing was a blaster or a 'saber, she preferred the 'intimate kill'. Saying that, she COULD use them (IG mastery), but was really really not a fan and not such a great shot. But, had its uses to slow targets down so she could get her hands on 'em!
So... that's how I think of the ability to 'multi-master' things. Max and Min the impact and IC skill... but still keep it as a part of the character.
And avoid the Mary Sue.
Character growth (and interaction) is stymied when you're uber at everything!!
RE: RP and multi-classing - Freyar - 07-02-2013
AS far as my design goes, there will be experience with certain classes, especially as more reach cap, but expertise will be limited to the primary area that the character has been working with. This can even be represented with the way bonus points are distributed, and attribute points are allocated. A character could be considered a master in a lot of different professions, but that doesn't mean that the character has the expertise beyond that point.
I realize I just re-wrote (and poorly) what others have said, but that's the gist of it.
Rorohiju Momohiju, primarily a studious Lalafell will have his expertise with magical work (with most in destructive spells and research), but he will eventually have master's proficiency in many other physical jobs as well.
Expertise != Mastery
RE: RP and multi-classing - Myal - 07-02-2013
(07-02-2013, 02:05 AM)Curtis West Wrote: It seems to me that a talented warrior (or mage) would be pretty good at nearly any weapon.Yar. My character is not a talented warrior, though. She's merely "somewhat competent". She's still fairly young. She became good at hand-to-hand combat mostly through brawling. She has a little experience using a spear that she could fight with it, but not really great at it, and she's hopeless in archery due to unsteady hands.
Most people don't need to be proficient with an assortments of weapons, so they don't practice with them, so they can't really use them, even if they potentially could if only they train. That's the reason I pick only one main class ICly for Myal: she's "most people".
RE: RP and multi-classing - Ashren Dotharl - 07-02-2013
Personally, if I took the time to level up Warrior and Black Mage as an example I see no reason why I shouldn't be able to claim my character has taken the time to train and become proficient with wielding black magic and an axe. FF games are all about pushing the envelop and doing things above and beyond what the normal person could do, so playing a character who has an affinity for all things combat wouldn't be unheard of, and the time it would take to level a new class from 1 to 50 you could easily explain the training in a new field of combat.
RE: RP and multi-classing - Magellan - 07-02-2013
I planned on having my character be good at two disciplines (Pug and Arc) and maybe some crafting skills too.
To be good at everything is god-moding (there I said it) and also makes for boring characters. If my char was good at every discipline the game offers, with no weaknesses and no flaws; where's the conflict? Where's the part where they struggle and overcome obstacles? Where's the realism? Every character should have limits, and things they simply cannot do, no matter how hard they try (unless you prefer Dragonball Z style RP)
...if people want to engage in RPing all-powerful beings, that is fine, that is their choice, and you won't harbor any grief from me, but its not an interesting way to develop a character, in my opinion.