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Leadway with Lore - Printable Version

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Leadway with Lore - Evie - 08-02-2013

Okay another question for you Lore Masters.

As there seems to be a very small amount of known lore (in comparison with other worlds such as Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc) is there a certain amount of openness with making thing up or making assumptions based upon what is known? And if so is there a place where this agreed upon information is based?

For example in my other post we were discussing the possibility that the Circle of Knowledge might possibly be an academy of learning for AFTER you've learned everything from a guild. If enough people agreed that this is the case, then it would become part of "accepted" lore.

Or is it more, here's the lore, this is how it is end of story type of thing. I'm sure there are people on both sides of the argument, but thoughts?

RE: Leadway with Lore - Ashren Dotharl - 08-02-2013

I think most people like to stay as close to the line as possible. It's why you'll see people playing characters from Ishgard are VERY vague with their character histories, because we have very little info yet on that city-state. As far as the Circle of Knowing goes, all of its former members are now listed as Scions so I think it's safe to assume the Circle of Knowing was dissolved when Louisoux died/disappeared. I don't recall any reference to it in ARR, though I may have missed it.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks that the Circle were all mages, Yda is quite obviously not a mage and in fact she at times doesn't even seem all that bright, and Thancred is listed as a Bard even though he is absolutely nothing like a Bard beyond knowing a lot of tales and what not, he doesn't even use a weapon available by any class in the game (throwing knives).

In short it's better to ask questions and get clarifications, or err on the side of caution. Most people I've found tend to be wary of making assumptions or leaps when it comes to lore because you never know when they might change something and force you to retcon.

RE: Leadway with Lore - Xha'li Moui - 08-02-2013

What Ash said, with so much left unknown its probably best to err on the side of caution to avoid needing to do any major retcon's later on as more lore is released.

RE: Leadway with Lore - Evie - 08-02-2013

Yes, the thought of having to Retcon is bad. But as a writer I thrive off of in-depth backstory and so far I've been running into wall because there doesn't seem to be much lore past what was seen in the first game (which I didn't play and so don't know a lot about) and with what is posted on the Official website. This lack of consistent direction has my head screaming because of giant gapping holes in the knowledge. I understand that this is a relatively new world and so there isn't a lot yet, but it just makes my eye twitch because when it comes to an in-depth backstory I'm essentially forced not to have and to me the in-depth stories allows more uniqueness to the character's personality. Everyone is the sum of their past exploits after all.

RE: Leadway with Lore - Ashren Dotharl - 08-02-2013

Eorzean lore and facts
A comprehensive look at the Seventh Umbral Era story arc
Final Fantasy Wiki
Gamer Escape

I'd use these links and be sure to look around the forum to fill any holes that need filling. If you look hard enough (and know where to look) there is actually a lot of available lore for Eorzea, there are just a lot of things left untold so far because they never came up during the original game. There's nothing wrong with asking questions as well when you need help filling in any plot holes.

RE: Leadway with Lore - Eva - 08-02-2013

Good links Ashren!  Beat me to it!  Cool

You don't really need to know every little tidbit of lore before you can start hashing out a character concept, as well.  Having some understanding of what the races are like and the names of some of the places and what they're like is probably a good start.  But I've found you don't really need all that much lore to make a compelling and interesting character.  There are a lot of parallels that can be drawn between Eorzea and other worlds and you can figure out most things like personality, family, and backstory without having to know too much about the lore itself.  And if there's something you're not sure about or there's no lore for, you can often find creative ways to explain away this sort of gap in information.

And then as you familiarize yourself more closely with Eorzea and its inner workings you might find other things to integrate into your character's already-existing story and kind of build outwards from there.

For my own part, Eva has been fashioned much more by her interactions with other people than she has from any specific lore-related stuff.  Once the game comes up and RP starts happening again, I think you'll find it will all progress very naturally and fluidly.  Thumbsup

RE: Leadway with Lore - Evie - 08-02-2013

THANKS!!! I'm sure this will help a lot. And I've already started asking questions that I've had when it comes to beginning to build the back story. Granted the questions I've asking have been pertaining more to my character's parent's backstories, so if things have to be retconned and changed it won't cause much in the way of change to my actual character. Like I said I'm very big about my backstories and such. Tongue

RE: Leadway with Lore - FreelanceWizard - 08-02-2013

Also, don't forget our own lore hunting thread and Merri's Garlean empire thread. There's a lot of good information in those.

(08-02-2013, 08:24 PM)Evie Wrote: As there seems to be a very small amount of known lore (in comparison with other worlds such as Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc) is there a certain amount of openness with making thing up or making assumptions based upon what is known? And if so is there a place where this agreed upon information is based?

For example in my other post we were discussing the possibility that the Circle of Knowledge might possibly be an academy of learning for AFTER you've learned everything from a guild. If enough people agreed that this is the case, then it would become part of "accepted" lore.

I really can't get behind this sort of "accepted fanon" concept, because not every RPer goes to this site, and no matter how plausible your argument may seem and how many RPC members might agree with it, someone is going to disagree. (This is actually a good example, because my read of the Circle of Knowledge from ARR's main scenario quest is not that it's an academy, so much as it's a society of "wise people.") Those disagreements are going to cause OOC grief, whether by preventing you from RPing effectively with people who disagree or by allowing the existence of people who say, "this is the RP Community's Fanon, and we're the majority, so you have to do what we say." Additionally, retcons from devs filling in lore later are always a major concern.

So, my very strong recommendation is to stick to what's available and reasonable extrapolations thereof. Reasonable extrapolations don't, in my mind, include sketching out major NPC organizations. If you really want an academy for your character's backstory, you can:
  • Assert the existence of one in a village or town somewhere and explain why it exists, particularly in a world where that's not the typical means of higher education;
  • Connect with a guild that runs an academy (such as Unsung Heroes) and, with their permission, work them into your backstory;
  • Hew closer to lore and remove the element from your backstory.

One nice part about XIV having such a wide open lore and a big, largely unspecified world is that you have a fair amount of freedom to build your backstory within the boundaries of lore without clobbering others' stories.

I also completely agree with Eva that while a backstory is good, most of the interesting elements of a character tend to come from your IC interactions. Smile You can start with a fairly vague backstory, then fill in elements later as needed.

RE: Leadway with Lore - Aysun - 08-02-2013

That's why RP is more than just being a writer to me. Characters with simplistic backstories often are the most interesting to interact with, because they are dynamic and real feeling, whereas elaborate backstories mean a lot of character development is already DONE and the RP will never live up to the experiences in the backstory.

Lore is gud. We don't have much lore and are for the most part very loyal to what we DO have, and it hasn't stopped us from creating awesome characters thus far!

RE: Leadway with Lore - Evie - 08-02-2013

Okay so when I started this post I meant it more as a curiosity of how this group of people handled things. In my experience different groups handle things differently, so I was just curious how y'all handled things.

For example, with Star Wars, as this is where my experience is with RP, past forum RPs and my own personal writings, essentially there is two sets of lore. The official lore of Star Wars, which is solely relegated to the six Star Wars movies. This is what Lucas himself has said on the subject. All the other lore (the books, encyclopedias, etc.) is it's own separate world, an alternate reality. Which essentially says that a person can make up whatever lore up they want, i.e "fandom" is acceptable.

As I'm not familiar with Final Fantasy in anyways, I came here as an experienced RPer looking for information about lore. Instead I get lectured on how to properly RP.

If I offended anyone into thinking that their way of RP was wrong or that not having an in-depth backstory makes your character a generic character and not interesting, I apologize if it came across in that manner. That's not what I intended.

However, how I RP and write is my PERSONAL choice, and being told that I should only "build my character through RP" and not worry about going into an in-depth backstory because that's the best way to do it, makes me generally feel as if I am being told that I RP WRONG. A character with an in-depth backstory can hugely change through RP. I just like to know who my character is and where my character comes from.

RE: Leadway with Lore - Myxie Tryxle - 08-02-2013

A lot of this is also a matter of personal preference. The way I see it, there are two possibilities:

1. You write a story and later have to retcon it.
2. You don't write a story and no lore ever appears that would have contradicted it.

Which is the bigger crime? You have to decide for yourself which is the bigger risk, and as someone said, use common sense when it comes to creative license. Writing a little family history to figure out where your character comes from and what their values are is likely fine. The lore is never going to touch a huge fraction of what's available, possible, or underneath the surface in the larger setting, and I consider that exploration a major part of the draw and potential of roleplaying.

Now if that family history involves your mother being the secret consort of Louisoix giving you magical powers over space and time, including having brunch with the Twelve every Sunday, well, good luck with that.

RE: Leadway with Lore - Aixat - 08-02-2013

The point in seeking out information on the topics mentioned is to avoid retconning the RP. 

Is it really necessary to seem so rude to people new to the community?

RE: Leadway with Lore - Sidonus - 08-02-2013

(08-02-2013, 10:13 PM)undefined Wrote:
Callipygian Wrote:A lot of this is also a matter of personal preference.  The way I see it, there are two possibilities:

1.  You write a story and later have to retcon it.
2.  You don't write a story and no lore ever appears that would have contradicted it.

Which is the bigger crime?  You have to decide for yourself which is the bigger risk, and as someone said, use common sense when it comes to creative license.  Writing a little family history to figure out where your character comes from and what their values are is likely fine.  The lore is never going to touch a huge fraction of what's available, possible, or underneath the surface in the larger setting, and I consider that exploration a major part of the draw and potential of roleplaying.

Now if that family history involves your mother being the secret consort of Louisoix giving you magical powers over space and time, including having brunch with the Twelve every Sunday, well, good luck with that.


Except no one should ever have to retcon a story ever unless you pull something out of this world such as making yourself a god of some sort. What happens with your character stays with your character regardless of if you wanted something different to happen. And never did she want to become a god ever, a central place of knowledge for magic users is a good idea. Each guild would be more specialized in there obvious schools such as Black Magic and such but the central place of learning is a place for everyone to learn about each school.

RE: Leadway with Lore - Evie - 08-02-2013

I NEVER said anything about WHAT I wanted for my characters parents, as I'm personally of the mindset that story should be found out through RP so I don't give character spoilers. I am NOT out to make my character to be some FF14 OP God, again I'm familiar with how to RP and make my characters fallible and human, not Gods.  
 
I am a person curious as to who these entities and people are because, again, I am NEW to the Final Fantasy Lore, which is why I am asking questions in the first place. What I had found was very lacking in any real detail and since it was on a wiki I figured that maybe the post had just never been updated. So I figured I'd ask here, with the people who have experienced the lore first hand as they played the first game.

RE: Leadway with Lore - Ashren Dotharl - 08-02-2013

(08-02-2013, 10:21 PM)Sidonus Wrote: Except no one should ever have to retcon a story ever unless you pull something out of this world such as making yourself a god of some sort. What happens with your character stays with your character regardless of if you wanted something different to happen. And never did she want to become a god ever, a central place of knowledge for magic users is a good idea. Each guild would be more specialized in there obvious schools such as Black Magic and such but the central place of learning is a place for everyone to learn about each school.
I'd say in a perfect environment this would be true, but when you write outside of the lore and you try to add things or make assumptions based on facts that don't exist you end up either playing a game that very few others are playing (meaning your interpretation is drastically different from everyone else), or you're forced to change your idea to conform to new information. As Freelance suggested, creating your own academy to fit these means is far safer than suggesting that another in game faction could fill this role when we don't know enough about them.

(08-02-2013, 10:04 PM)Evie Wrote: Okay so when I started this post I meant it more as a curiosity of how this group of people handled things. In my experience different groups handle things differently, so I was just curious how y'all handled things.

For example, with Star Wars, as this is where my experience is with RP, past forum RPs and my own personal writings, essentially there is two sets of lore. The official lore of Star Wars, which is solely relegated to the six Star Wars movies. This is what Lucas himself has said on the subject. All the other lore (the books, encyclopedias, etc.) is it's own separate world, an alternate reality. Which essentially says that a person can make up whatever lore up they want, i.e "fandom" is acceptable.

As I'm not familiar with Final Fantasy in anyways, I came here as an experienced RPer looking for information about lore. Instead I get lectured on how to properly RP.

If I offended anyone into thinking that their way of RP was wrong or that not having an in-depth backstory makes your character a generic character and not interesting, I apologize if it came across in that manner. That's not what I intended. 

However, how I RP and write is my PERSONAL choice, and being told that I should only "build my character through RP" and not worry about going into an in-depth backstory because that's the best way to do it, makes me generally feel as if I am being told that I RP WRONG. A character with an in-depth backstory can hugely change through RP. I just like to know who my character is and where my character comes from.
I think you might be misunderstanding the responses you are being given, no one is trying to tell you that how you RP is wrong, or even attempting to convince you to do things differently. Ultimately what everyone is trying to say, in their own way, is err on the side of caution when coming up with things not covered in the lore, you never know if the material might get added later on.

A good example would be having your character be from a place in the world that has very little information offered about it, for the sake of this example we'll use Ishgard. Now let's say you put a lot of backstory into this character, covering all different kinds of facets of their life in the city, how they grew up, what it was like there, what the city looked like, etc. Then let's say that they open up the city and we get a flood of new lore about Ishgard that entirely contradicts everything you wrote about your character, it could potentially make you retcon your character, or even make it entirely obsolete.

So in short, as I've said before, it's always safer to simply err on the side of caution.