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+--- Thread: Garlean Firearms (/showthread.php?tid=4930)
Garlean Firearms - Corelyn - 10-06-2013
On a whole, we know that the Garleans seem to have an affinity for guns. Gunblades, gunmechs of all kinds, welding guns into their armour all over the place... and I assume once musketeer/cavalier shows up, they'll have some sort of pistoleer proper.
My question would be... what about more "traditional" firearms? Instead of bows, would they carry rifles? Pistols? Would they have more high-powered guns like sniper rifles?
It seems, on a whole, that if they have big mechs with rockets, missles, auto-fire and all that, can pretty much go "This armour looks bland. Let's glue guns all over it!" and just basically like shooting things in general, it'd be a bit absurd not have more... conventional means of fire for proper Garlean soldiers (ie, pure-blooded or those born, raised and trained by the Empire - not the people of other nations press-ganged into service at whatever time in their lives).
After some more deliberation on it, though, I figured I'd ask for more opinions. After all, if they already have pistols in Eorzea, then Garlemald has all manner of means to make things go boom or put holes in things... it would only make sense. And it would hardly be the first time in Final Fantasy we've had people bringing knives to a gunfight and vice versa.
So... what do you guys think? Are bows too "old hat" for an Empire that adds guns onto basically any blank surface (exaggeration, but the point stands)?
RE: Garlean Firearms - Cato - 10-06-2013
As a general rule the technology of the Garlean Empire far surpasses anything that can be found in Eorzea. At the same time they're also efficient enough to make use of conventional weaponry - many of their soldiers can be seen wielding bows, staves and various other common weapons in combat. Sniper rifles and regular pistols don't strike me as being much of a stretch, either. Provided they're largely kept in Garlean hands and don't magically become the norm for the people of Eorzea.
Regardless, a nation having advanced technology does not equal having access to everything and anything under the sun. I'd avoid making use of things that aren't in line with what is seen in the game itself, otherwise it risks becoming an arms race as to who has the character with the most gimmicky weapon(s). I've already seen a few characters walking around with missing limbs replaced with magitek that are mysteriously much more agile and powerful than regular limbs - which makes it less of a drawback and more of a boon.
RE: Garlean Firearms - Corelyn - 10-06-2013
Yeah. That's why I added the caveat as to pure-bloods or natives of other sorts. A lot of the sword/staff/bow wielders we do see in game are often the subjugated people of other nations.
As for magitek limbs and enhancement... that's a hell of a stretch without either A) backstory originating in Garlemald and/or B) a balancing trait of some sort. To that end, I'd almost say it's not an either/or thing as much of a BOTH thing.
I think the most that information like this would and SHOULD be used by a vast majority of RP is when in combat against Garlean NPCs and enemies.
I totally agree on the arms race comment. Sadly, a lot of mediocre roleplay will find itself "enhanced" with futuristic/advanced weaponry and such that no one else -should- have. But as soon as a few people are seen with it out of context, it suddenly becomes okay for everyone else and their grandmother, just by the "monkey-see-monkey-do" thing.
RE: Garlean Firearms - Lost River - 10-06-2013
As with the whole Garlean rule bit; I believe they only give the natives of their army/nation the advanced weaponry while conscripts of the invaded/annexed nations get basic armaments. It's to keep rebellion down lower when your rank and file, especially those from conquered nations are given basically 'sticks and stones' when you have the 'bomb'.
RE: Garlean Firearms - LandStander - 10-06-2013
Merlwyb actually carries about a pistol, so I am sure that the Empire would have something similar at their disposal. I did check for everything under the sun, but now I want to change my answer xD. Didnt realize we were talking about sniper rifles and such.Â
I think they would have access to pistols and probably some form of rifle, something like a musket (musketeer
), but nothing advanced like an SMG and such.
RE: Garlean Firearms - Arlas - 10-06-2013
Bows just don't even compare to guns from a military standpoint, so I can't see them in use at all. Bows take intensive training to be useful, and even then. It's much easier to train people en mass to use guns.
That said.... I want a sniper rifle for one of my characters. 8[ But I can't wait until we get our hands on any kind of fire arm.
RE: Garlean Firearms - Cato - 10-06-2013
(10-06-2013, 02:52 PM)Arlas Wrote: Bows just don't even compare to guns from a military standpoint, so I can't see them in use at all. Bows take intensive training to be useful, and even then. It's much easier to train people en mass to use guns.
That said.... I want a sniper rifle for one of my characters. 8[ But I can't wait until we get our hands on any kind of fire arm.
...and yet they are used - fairly frequently - by many Garlean troops. Nor are they suddenly less useful just because guns also exist in the setting. A military that employs numerous different fighting styles and weaponry is generally more efficient than one that relies solely upon one.
This happens in the real world, too. No matter how advanced technology gets there's still a slim chance something will go wrong. You might be disarmed, run out of bullets or the weapon might not work correctly. That's one of the reasons as to why soldiers carry combat knives on their person and I can see something similar being a rule of thumb for the Garleans.
RE: Garlean Firearms - Ildur - 10-06-2013
Remember that this is a fantasy world and an MMO: making guns realistic would make all other forms of combat obsolete on a large scale. Just like in the real world: pointing a gun and pressing the trigger takes much less training than any other weapon. It's also much more powerful and deadly. The only instance where Garleans firearms seem to do any kind of 'proper' damage is in the opening cinematic. And we all know what happens between cinematics and gameplay.
So we have to accept that bows are just as powerful as guns for both matters of balance (it's a game) and of theme (it's a fantasy world). It doesn't make sense realistically, but that's how the game universe works.
For those same reasons I'd avoid acknowledging weaponry that is not despicted in the game for the Garleans. It will create a lot of dissonance between theme, genre and the 'willing suspension of disbelief'.
RE: Garlean Firearms - Naunet - 10-06-2013
Only the higher ranking Garlean soliders seem to come equipped with those personal energy guns - at least that's what I've noticed. Every other use of that tech seems tied to their ships or other mounted systems. It's possible they either don't have a means to mass produce these smaller energy guns, or are deliberately withholding them from lower ranking soldiers (perhaps as for self-protection - maybe they don't trust those they've conquered enough? I dunno).
RE: Garlean Firearms - Corelyn - 10-06-2013
Now that you've all brought up some -very- good points, allow me to expand on them further. And as a disclaimer... I might be bringing some sci-fi into our fantasy world here for just a moment, but bear with me. I love explaining and rationalizing things like this.
First, addressing the issue of suspension of disbelief - this is one of my favourite things (along with the fourth wall, from time to time) to screw around with. I've found that one can keep it very well, so long as explanations, reasons, and usage for just about anything does comes across neat, clean, and supported by actual gameplay, lore, or pure logic.
That said, I have noticed, as has been said, that most Garlean firearms are energy-based. The main "gun" attack of Magitek Riding Armour is called "Photon Stream," which could lead one to believe that the Garleans use a light-and-heat based projectile system instead of a purely physical projectile system. Granted, both may find the same effectiveness, and they may be capable of employing -both- methods. Also, from what we see, the guns equipped on Livia sas Junius and Rhitatyn sas Arvina are not guns but magitek cannons, Livia's less so than Rhitatyn's, having seen her fire them like guns normally in cutscenes. This also calls to point that most people aside from purebloods or those raised in Garlemald proper would even see training on any type of firearm, as most of the time, those we see piloting the Magitek Riding Armours are often clad in the garb of higher-ranking or true Garlean soldiers. For anyone in Eorzea to find access to, or even use effectively at all, a garlean firearm, would likely require significant backstory set allied with or descended from the Empire, which, in itself, can be a fairly big handicap if exposed - this means that skilled use of a firearm would be immediately obvious to most people of Erozea in possession of a decent sense of logic and reasoning, anbd would immediately subject that person to suspicion, distrust, and even persecution if not worse.
This brings to reason, along with supporting in-game mechanics of long charge and cooldowns, that most Garlean firearms shown in-game, while relatively effective, capable of differing modes such as charged shots, burst-fire, and even launching missiles, depending on the equipment employed, require long periods of cooling down or preparation between "clips" or "charges." I would assume, given that we see a lot of photon- and energy-based projectiles, if not exclusively, that, as is the case with all Magitek, the primary element in these firearms is ceruleum. I'm willing to wager that the ceruleum is used as an alternative type of ammunition to charge particles and fire them in a projectile-based state with physical mass and properties until the projectiles encounter enough resistance to shatter the bonds which hold together those selfsame particles. This does not mean, of course, that all Garlean firearms would produce burn-like wounds - they could have much the same effects as physical rounds.
That said, one could argue that such weapons of any kind - even the heavier weapons - can be rationalized and placed in the environment without stretching anything too far. It would also mean that due to the drawbacks of not only long charge and cooling-down periods on the weapons, that the weapons themselves could be matched in potency, or at least effectiveness, of most magic shown in-game. It also calls to mention that a lot of archers may even match the effectiveness of Garlean tech weapons, as even today, a good bow and skilled wielder can have as much penetrating power and force as many smaller firearms, if not better aim and a much stealthier means of attack. We can rule out silencers in Garlean tech. After all, the bang of a gun is synonymous with a show of power - much like a crack of thunder - and the Garleans love their power shows.
Should these points hold enough water, I'd say that implementation in RP should follow what's set above. It seems as though the game has these things balanced already in show and mechanics, and these things would be well-translated to RP given proper in-character implementation.
What do you guys think? And you'll have to pardon me. I'm actually known in my old circle for really getting into the technical details of things in order to expand a world beyond what is shown in gameplay. After all, the more that can be rationally done in RP, the better, in my opinion! Free your mind, man. Free your mind.
And wow, that got really fucking long. Um...
TL;DR: ...read the whole fucking thing. It's worth it, I think.
RE: Garlean Firearms - Sev - 10-07-2013
Well, having no real advanced knowledge of FFXIV, it's technology and just lore in general I can reach two different conclusions on firearms in FFXIV - brace for speculation and probably a million things i've missed!
But before that, rule of cool. In the real world, when firearms became widespread melee combat (Save for bayonets and to a point, pikes) and archery/crossbows died rather quickly due to the indisputable killing power and ease of use of firearms, with cavalry lasting only a few centuries longer thanks to their speed and slow reload times of early firearms. However, line combat is boring. Melee combat and archery holds a far more interesting and -much- faster paced fighting style which is more suitable for games, because being able to seriously wound or kill someone with one shot is no fun.
So, first conclusion - Garlean firearms are magic/energy based, and Eorzian are conventional. I recall seeing cannons on many of the ships in Limsa Limonsa, noting Melwyb carries a pistol, and if I recall correctly, that Ceruleum is only found in Garlean-held lands. Not too much of a stretch as blackpowder is fairly simple to make, especially with the existence of an Apothecary guild.
For why they aren't widespread using this theory is anyone's guess, though it could range from low supply, price of production, scarcity of raw materials and something so similar to Garlean magitech being viewed as something best left alone.
Ceruleum as a propellant does not hold much energy. Naturally if you fire something out of a firearm (Assuming they fire physical projectiles) with low energy behind it due to a small / weak charge, the damage inflicted will be lower, leading to more minor wounds. Another possibility is that firearms are difficult / expensive to produce, so grunts only get cheap, ineffective models which may have trouble punching through armour, while the real nasty boomsticks are reserved for higher-ranking soldiers.
As for just how advanced their knowledge of firearms and ballistics is, I really can't say. To create firearms that are accurate beyond a hundred or so feet they would need to figure out rifling, beyond that, breech loading. I don't know if they could make automatic / self loading weapons due to apparently low energy of the propellant,which would make gas-operated reloading hard, if not impossible. Though a mechanical system such as the one used in the Gatling Gun may be possible. That being said, it would be grossly impractical as the smoke created by blackpowder, and Ceruleum would blind the crew in their own smokescreen.
But, all this being said, if Garleans can build functioning mechs and huge airships, little would be beyond their grasp.
RE: Garlean Firearms - Ildur - 10-07-2013
Ceruleum isn't just found in the Empire. Northern Thanalan has a large supply (the largest in Eorzea, if I recall correctly) of Ceruleum that is exploited by Ul'dah. There was a post somewhere in this forum explaining what Ceruleum was and how it was used (I can't find it, sadly), but the short version basically a refined form of aether. Aether is what is used by spell casters (and non-spell casters, too) to shape magical spells. So indeed, Garlean technology is basically magic. Hence the term 'magitek'.
It's very hard to determine what is realistic (realistic for Eorzea´s universe, I mean) and what is just the 'Rule of Cool' or a balance made for gameplay's sake. But if we consider that gameplay is informed by the story, it does appear that a Garlean 'bullet' is as damaging as an arrow. And if Musketeers are going to be the next class (as rumors say), then any bullet will be as damaging as an arrow.
For this reason, I'd say that Garlean weaponry is just if not more powerful than gunpowder weaponry, which is just as powerful as non gunpowder weaponry.
So...yeah, I'd say we leave it at 'Rule of Cool'.
RE: Garlean Firearms - Naunet - 10-07-2013
(10-07-2013, 03:23 AM)Ildur Wrote: For this reason, I'd say that Garlean weaponry is just if not more powerful than gunpowder weaponry, which is just as powerful as non gunpowder weaponry.
As a side note, there are some cut scenes from 1.0 that suggest the Empire's airships carry weapons of extreme firepower. A single shot from one ship decimated nearly an entire valley in one scene.
RE: Garlean Firearms - Darcrathon - 10-07-2013
(10-06-2013, 02:52 PM)Arlas Wrote: Bows just don't even compare to guns from a military standpoint, so I can't see them in use at all. Bows take intensive training to be useful, and even then. It's much easier to train people en mass to use guns.When firearms were first created in real history they were expensive unreliable and difficult to make at the speed of pre weapons. They would also take a much higher amount of skill then a bow did at the time not to mention the slow reload of like 1 to 2 shots a minute, compared to bows that could do 20 in skilled hands. It took centuries before they really took a crack at guns and yet even when they started being used in militarizes bows and swords where still used in mass use. It is quit accurate for them to use more cheap tech for those conscripts they could care less about. Instead of having to size down their army due to lack of funds just use the expensive tech on those who are part of the original army.
That said.... I want a sniper rifle for one of my characters. 8[ But I can't wait until we get our hands on any kind of fire arm.
RE: Garlean Firearms - DAISHI - 10-08-2013
Firearms were not an effective force multiplier until the 1800s. Their slow rate of reloading and general inaccuracies ensured that they were simply not effective counters to traditional, native weaponry. This was not restricted to North America, but Africa as well. Portuguese invaders found their weaponry unable to suppress native populations and force them to cooperate in order to institute their slave trade, an issue that was ongoing, again, into the 1800s when advances in technology allowed for quicker reloading and greater accuracy.
I feel FFXIV is a similar situation if traditional bows and weaponry can combat Garlean firearms.