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Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - K'dath - 10-25-2013
![[Image: DqLpSyv.png]](http://i.imgur.com/DqLpSyv.png)
On the Beast Tribes of Eorzea
I should probably start out by saying at the time of writing; I haven't finished the main story line. I've been trying to avoid making too many assumptions or definitive statements about anything in the game I haven't observed, lest I make myself look like an idiot. I've done a lot of research and background reading, but I really don't see myself finishing the story mode any time soon, and I'd like some insights.
So, Spoiler Warnings! and Spoilers Sought!
As far as I've observed, in regards to the beastmen, they're pretty much all regarded with distrust, even the 'friendly' ones.Â
- Of the beastmen without a primal we know of, the Qiqirn and the Goblins are the most accepted. The Mamool Ja seem about half-a-step down, as they are socially, but not politically, feared/disliked. For these races, Limsa Lominsa seems to be the most tolerant to beast races, as they're allowed to live and trade within its walls, a courtesy not extended to them in the other City-States. Gridania, as far as I can tell, while not openly hostile to these races, will also not abide them in the Twelveswood. Ul'Dah is openly and overtly hostile to all non-humanoid races.
- Moving on, 'friendly beastmen' with a Primal consist of the Sylph.The Sylph of Little Solace not tempered by the Primal Ramuh are considered allies of Gridania but are still considered hostiles in Ul'Dah.
- The Amalj'aa are the sole beast tribe native to Thanlaan and worship the primal Ifrit, whom they believe blessed the land with Holy Fire. They're nomadic hunters who are spread throughout the region, but have a stronghold named Zahar'ak which means 'Like a rock' in their language and who's location was chosen by ritual divination to be most effective in war. They take human slaves and offer them as living sacrifices to their god. The hostilities between the Amalj'aa and Ul'dah are mutual and continue to escalate with movements from either side.
- The Ixal are the zealots of the wind primal Garuda, who now dwell in the canyons of Xelphatol. However they once lived in Tinolqa, "Blessed Forest", what we call the Twelveswood. They once possessed wings and were able to fly, but following their exile from the woods their young have been born without them, and thus have had to fashion dirigibles to travel by air. They raid the Shroud to fell trees in worship to their god, making them the sworn enemies of Gridania. The hostilities coming from the Ixal are unrelenting, while Gridania's hostilities are defensive in nature.
- The Kobold are a prolific race known as the children of the primal Titan. They inhabit the mountain O'Ghomoro. They are among the most advanced of the beastraces, lacking in overtly barbaric tendencies. They are reverent to their creator and hold ore and metals to be his precious manifestations. They are the masters of smelting and smithing his gifts, a knowledge they shared with the smiths of Limsa Lominsa as part of a peace treaty. They agreed that everything of the sea belongs to the men, and everything under the earth to the Kobold. When Limsa Lominsa violated the treaty the Kobolds became aggressive in self defense.
- The Sahagin are 'basically the most brutal of all pirates. They primarily live underwater, but they both possess and use ships to great effect. They head up the Serpent Reavers, which is a band of pirates that consists of both the five races and Sahagin. Of course, most of these pirates have been tempered by Leviathan, but supposedly not all of them.' - Merri
I recall during the story build-up/battle with Titan, Y'shtola mentions that Limsa Lominsa was in the wrong... but then it was just kinda hand waved and never brought up again! That's it? Why would you build that up and then just kinda shrug it off and go on with your crusade.
The other races seem less offended though and more enraged. And maybe with good reason! There's at least one friendly Amalj'aa NPC who comments that he would be slaughtered on sight for nothing else than being an Amalj'aaa. (I assume he's a quest NPC later on?) The Ixal were thrown out of their home, Why? Who knows? And then they were wing clipped to boot.
I just feel like there's a perspective here that we're not getting. And that's sad, because the kind of polarized morality I've seen in regards to our fellow, sentient men of Eorzea is a huge let down. Men and beastmen share a similar blood, and they've shown a capacity for the same intelligence and same emotions as the rest of us. They are part of our world, and we murder them because they don't look like us...
"What had they done that we would not have done in their place? God, what intelligence and persistence! What a facing of the incredible, just as those carven kinsmen and forbears had faced things only a little less incredible! Radiates, vegetables, monstrosities, star spawn - whatever they had been, they were men!"
-H.P Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness
-H.P Lovecraft, At the Mountains of Madness
Note, the above is not necessarily meant to be an appeal to your senses as players, or that "omg u guys genocide is wrong" or anything to that extent. It's a serious case of playing the Devil's Advocate because the subject interests me on a personal level. I admit it's a completely selfish interest, coming from a person who exclusively plays beast races (when playable). So don't misread/misunderstand it as some sort of "you are all terrible people" kinda post. But if it does make you think on the actions of the players in the story, I think that's a good thing.
If I misunderstood anything, feel free to correct me! The lore for this game is very poorly chronicled. I've pieced together my findings from at least half a dozen different sites and in game quotes (some of which may or may not necessarily be reliable). I've also been awake for some 23 odd hours... And all of this was without even touching on the primals and the implications and complexities they bring with them! (which is a lot!)
I want to know what other people think about this, as well as me picking for facts and such. Do you think the beastmen are redeemable? Or indeed that they even need to be redeemed? Do you think we'll ever live together? As equals? Or are they subhuman stains? Only fit to be wiped from the face of Eorzea? Do you have different thoughts ICly and OoCly? Enthrall me with your opinions!
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - FreelanceWizard - 10-25-2013
Part of the problem is that the Primals substantially complicate the situation because of their viral and destructive nature. As long as the beastmen tribes keep summoning them, Hydaelyn is at risk. Those in the know realize that not all beastmen are summoning Primals, and that not all Primals are equally destructive (Ramuh, for instance, is much less destructive than Garuda), but the average citizen who knows that beastmen summon Primals is likely going to paint all of them with the same brush. When you combine that with a healthy dose of racism and culture clash, mistrust turns into hatred and outright war.
Now, of course, there's other factors at play...
...but ultimately some characters are going to side with the Garlean viewpoint, which is to commit genocide to stop the Primal summoning altogether -- Primals being viewed as a larger threat than killing off entire races. My character, L'yhta, has at least considered the possibility that such "grim work" is the only viable solution to the Primal question.
I don't know if you found them, but there's actually a couple of older dev posts that address the whole city-state versus beastmen issue. They comment a bit darkly on Ul'dah's behavior, which is characterized largely as greedy men and women waging war against anyone who might impact their profits. I'll have to dig those up.
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - John Spiegel - 10-25-2013
Ten points for quoting Lovecraft.
Great read too! (one point for that
)
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - Merri - 10-25-2013
Moogles actually aren't considered Beastmen. They don't have a primal, either. When people refer to Good King Moggle Mog as a "Primal", it was more of a reference to the style of fight and arena that the original took place in. The lore team has even come out to say that no, Good King Moggle Mog isn't a primal. Moogles are actually more closely related to the elementals of the Shroud than anything.
Far as the Sahagin go, they're basically the most brutal of all pirates. They primarily live underwater, but they both possess and use ships to great effect. They head up the Serpent Reavers, which is a band of pirates that consists of both the five races and Sahagin. Of course, most of these pirates have been tempered by Leviathan, but supposedly not all of them.
Just two things I thought I'd throw in. Haven't busted out the lore guru cap in awhile, but I might revisit this post when I have more time to devote to actually writing something up on the subject.
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - Anzio - 10-26-2013
Just out of curiosity, where do things like Spriggan, Quirqin (sp?), and Gigas fall in all of this?
I think I've seen the Momool Ja around too.
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - Merri - 10-27-2013
(10-26-2013, 11:16 PM)Anzil Wrote: Just out of curiosity, where do things like Spriggan, Quirqin (sp?), and Gigas fall in all of this?
I think I've seen the Momool Ja around too.
Spriggan have been show to have some form of sentience, but it's never been stated that they're on the level of Beastmen. Certain races are labeled beast "men" because they more or less possess the same level of sentience or capability as the five races, though this usually isn't the case for various reasons.
Some fall outside the stereotypes of their races, which is seen in certain quest chains, but it isn't frequent.
Suffice it to say, Qiqirin and Gigas are in fact Beastmen. We don't know if the Qiqirin have a primal, but it's highly, highly likely that the Gigas revere Shiva, given their nature in-game as the only beastmen race that normally inhabits the frigid north to our current knowledge.
Qiqirin fall under the category of Beastmen that have the ability to mingle with the five races, as do Goblins and Mamool Ja. Mamool Ja were actually called to Eorzea from over the seas after the Calamity at the behest of Eorzeans, due to the dire need for laborers and mercenaries to battle dangerous wildlife in wake of all the destruction. The adventuring profession has recently made a re-emergence, and that's the main reason you see many Mamool Ja resorting to banditry. Adventurers are a much, much more reliable workforce.
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - LiadansWhisper - 10-27-2013
There's something said during the Botany questline in Gridania that seems to indicate that the Ixal at least once had some kind of peace treaty with the Gridanians. Â I can't remember what exactly was said, but I remember Fufucha seemed to indicate there was some kind of misunderstanding of some such that led to the current situation, but that before that the Ixal were as accepted as the Sylphs.
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - K'dath - 10-27-2013
Updated the OP, took the Moogles off the list and filled in the Sahagin lore with Merri's description. I knew a little bit about them, but they're not really touched on too awful much outside of Limsa Lominsa's story line and are kinda hand waved as 'not a threat' simply because they don't have the means to summon Leviathan, despite the fact they seem far more ruthless and aggressive than the Kobold. I'm betting/hoping they'll be the center of a massive update in time though. Leviathan's been trumped up way too much to just forget about. And there's also that matter of the giant precambrian sea monster skeleton just hanging out in La Noscea... that seems important...
The Ascians were definitely the 'missing piece' in my research, thanks for bringing that point up. There was a connection I wasn't quite making, and you'd think with my focus on reading all the damnable quests multiple times I wouldn't have blanked so hard on that part.
As for 'what qualifies a (beast)man' I've pretty much just referred to the list of 'Spoken Blood' class enemies. Interestingly enough this class also includes Giants (Gigas), Tonberries, and a currently unused classification called 'Siren'.
I was pretty curious about the exact nature of the Tonberry, they seem a tad too ghastly to be men and don't really act with a lot of intent or motive, as far as I can tell. But they don't really seem like beastmen either, and I'm pretty sure Tonberry King is just an abnormally rotund Tonberry rather than a primal. Spriggans and Elementals are both referred to as 'Soulkin' and they are bloodless... I guess if you shiv'd a Moogle it'd bleed, but other than that, are basically the same thing then? I'm kind of assuming Tonberry are about like that too, but that's just a chain of wild mass guessing based only on the classification system.Â
Aevis were another one I'd wondered about. They are Scalekin rather than Spoken, so I assume that means they lack intelligence. The Dragons are referred to as being beastmen though we haven't rightly seen any of them yet. Seeing as most of my exposure to Ishgardian politics has been dealing with Aevis, I was wondering if there's a connection between the two of them? I didn't catch it if it was explained, but in one of the levequests in the area it does refer to the Aevis as a dragon. It's clearly not a dragon proper, but the two seem related at least.
Guess I'll need to level Botany a bit more aggressively! I'll grab a screen cap of the dialogue if it does mention the Ixal! That's a neat point of contention. And it gives me a bit of encouragement concerning my own hypothesis... and also encouragement to level Botany!Â
Thanks for all the questions, answers, statements, and opinions thusfar! Glad to see other people are at least a little interested on the matter, rather than treating the beastfolk like sword fodder! And there's always new patches and expansions to look forward too. Never know what might yet happen~
(10-25-2013, 01:28 PM)John Spiegel Wrote: Ten points for quoting Lovecraft.At the Mountains of Madness should be required reading for everyone. Everyone. Ever. It's an objective fact that it is pretty much the best story ever written, surpassing even the timeless works of Dante and Homer in its epic mastery and shaming even the most ancient religious text with its deep profoundness.
Great read too! (one point for that
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - Jomoru - 10-27-2013
(10-27-2013, 11:04 AM)K Wrote: Updated the OP, took the Moogles off the list and filled in the Sahagin lore with Merri's description. I knew a little bit about them, but they're not really touched on too awful much outside of Limsa Lominsa's story line and are kinda hand waved as 'not a threat' simply because they don't have the means to summon Leviathan, despite the fact they seem far more ruthless and aggressive than the Kobold. I'm betting/hoping they'll be the center of a massive update in time though. Leviathan's been trumped up way too much to just forget about. And there's also that matter of the giant precambrian sea monster skeleton just hanging out in La Noscea... that seems important...
The Ascians were definitely the 'missing piece' in my research, thanks for bringing that point up. There was a connection I wasn't quite making, and you'd think with my focus on reading all the damnable quests multiple times I wouldn't have blanked so hard on that part.
As for 'what qualifies a (beast)man' I've pretty much just referred to the list of 'Spoken Blood' class enemies. Interestingly enough this class also includes Giants (Gigas), Tonberries, and a currently unused classification called 'Siren'.
I was pretty curious about the exact nature of the Tonberry, they seem a tad too ghastly to be men and don't really act with a lot of intent or motive, as far as I can tell. But they don't really seem like beastmen either, and I'm pretty sure Tonberry King is just an abnormally rotund Tonberry rather than a primal.
Tonberries are the "Survivors" of the Nym civiliation. They were hight hard by a plague that transformed them in mind and body and those who 'survived" were placed in the palace and sealed up. We know at least one Tonberry used to be a Lala so we can assume those who are similar height were that race.
All information on Tonberries comes from the Scholar questline
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - Anzio - 10-27-2013
Thanks Merri. I wonder where the Mamool Ja come from. I find their origins interesting now.
(10-27-2013, 05:33 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: There's something said during the Botany questline in Gridania that seems to indicate that the Ixal at least once had some kind of peace treaty with the Gridanians. Â I can't remember what exactly was said, but I remember Fufucha seemed to indicate there was some kind of misunderstanding of some such that led to the current situation, but that before that the Ixal were as accepted as the Sylphs.
That was back when they were the YagudoÂ
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - K'dath - 10-27-2013
(10-27-2013, 01:49 PM)Jomoru Wrote:(10-27-2013, 11:04 AM)K Wrote: As for 'what qualifies a (beast)man' I've pretty much just referred to the list of 'Spoken Blood' class enemies. Interestingly enough this class also includes Giants (Gigas), Tonberries, and a currently unused classification called 'Siren'.
I was pretty curious about the exact nature of the Tonberry, they seem a tad too ghastly to be men and don't really act with a lot of intent or motive, as far as I can tell. But they don't really seem like beastmen either, and I'm pretty sure Tonberry King is just an abnormally rotund Tonberry rather than a primal.
Tonberries are the "Survivors" of the Nym civiliation. They were hight hard by a plague that transformed them in mind and body and those who 'survived" were placed in the palace and sealed up. We know at least one Tonberry used to be a Lala so we can assume those who are similar height were that race.
All information on Tonberries comes from the Scholar questline
Fascinating... thanks for clearing that up for me! I was going to go scholar, but ended up going summoner at kinda the last minute. Now I'm actually pretty interested.
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - LiadansWhisper - 10-27-2013
(10-27-2013, 02:19 PM)K Wrote:(10-27-2013, 01:49 PM)Jomoru Wrote:(10-27-2013, 11:04 AM)K Wrote: As for 'what qualifies a (beast)man' I've pretty much just referred to the list of 'Spoken Blood' class enemies. Interestingly enough this class also includes Giants (Gigas), Tonberries, and a currently unused classification called 'Siren'.
I was pretty curious about the exact nature of the Tonberry, they seem a tad too ghastly to be men and don't really act with a lot of intent or motive, as far as I can tell. But they don't really seem like beastmen either, and I'm pretty sure Tonberry King is just an abnormally rotund Tonberry rather than a primal.
Tonberries are the "Survivors" of the Nym civiliation. They were hight hard by a plague that transformed them in mind and body and those who 'survived" were placed in the palace and sealed up. We know at least one Tonberry used to be a Lala so we can assume those who are similar height were that race.
All information on Tonberries comes from the Scholar questline
Fascinating... thanks for clearing that up for me! I was going to go scholar, but ended up going summoner at kinda the last minute. Now I'm actually pretty interested.
Level CNJ to 15 and do the quests. Â You'll bawl your eyes out. -_-
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - Ildur - 10-27-2013
The dragons have a primal: Bahamut. This alone is technically enough to qualify them as a 'beastmen' race. At least as far as Garleans are concerned.
There's also a levequest where it is stated that the elders of the Dravanian Horde (that's how the collective of dragons is called by the Ishgardians) ordered an attack.
Both of these things imply that they are indeed intelligent.
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - LiadansWhisper - 10-27-2013
(10-27-2013, 02:10 PM)Anzil Wrote: Thanks Merri. I wonder where the Mamool Ja come from. I find their origins interesting now.
(10-27-2013, 05:33 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: There's something said during the Botany questline in Gridania that seems to indicate that the Ixal at least once had some kind of peace treaty with the Gridanians. Â I can't remember what exactly was said, but I remember Fufucha seemed to indicate there was some kind of misunderstanding of some such that led to the current situation, but that before that the Ixal were as accepted as the Sylphs.
That was back when they were the YagudoÂ
I thought Yagudo were XI?
Fufucha refers to them as Ixal the entire time. Â She said they lived peacefully in the Twelveswood and were part of the culture there, trading and living alongside the other races. Â But she never explains what happened.
RE: Advocates for the Beastmen [Spoilers/Questions/etc] - K'dath - 10-27-2013
(10-27-2013, 03:28 PM)Ildur Wrote: The dragons have a primal: Bahamut. This alone is technically enough to qualify them as a 'beastmen' race. At least as far as Garleans are concerned.
There's also a levequest where it is stated that the elders of the Dravanian Horde (that's how the collective of dragons is called by the Ishgardians) ordered an attack.
Both of these things imply that they are indeed intelligent.
Ah, but I was inquiring about the Aevis which were referred to as dragons in one of the quests during the Ishgardian leg of the story. I'm pretty sure the Aevis are not the same as the Dragons/Dravanians proper, but I was curious as if there was a connection/reason as to why they were referred to as dragons during that particular quest. Distant cousins or something to that effect?
I knew that the Dragons were technically beastmen though. I think it's mentioned on Bahamut's little 'preview' on the website, even though the Dragons themselves aren't shown there.