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Roleplay Combat - Ninian Lune'ciel - 11-02-2013
Hey, everyone. I've been stalking these forums for a long time now (In the creepiest fashion possible), but this is my first time posting. To keep this all short, I'm a roleplayer from Gilgamesh and I've been considering beginning a sort of arena styled combat roleplay, opening to fighters and spectators a like. With that said, there is a point or two I wanted to get a few second or third opinions on, so I thought I'd ask the community.
Though I have all of my write ups complete and I'm pretty experienced in running these types of rps, I've yet to see any kind of in character combat in Final Fantasy. Therefore, I wanted to ask how everything thinks in character combat should flow? Personally, whether rolling or not for the results, I like:
-Having the first person emote their attempted attack.
-Having the second person emote their response to the action, followed by their own attack-attempt.
-Rinse and repeat step two, going back and forth.
It only really works one on one, but that's what I'm pushing for anyway. Even when rolls are involved (using an outside source for FFXIV), I still like people to moderator their own characters under success or failure.
So, what do you all think? What are your methods and ideals? I have a few other concepts I'd like to go over, but I wanted to try and start a bit of a discussion on the topic to try and nail my mechanics down.
RE: Roleplay Combat - K'nahli - 11-02-2013
IG combat always worried me. I felt as though I'd have to limit the strength of my one powerful character should I ever get involved.
RE: Roleplay Combat - Ninian Lune'ciel - 11-02-2013
Maybe, K'nahli. Personally, I've always taken in character combat as 'win or lose, it's roleplay all the same', but it can be easy for two people to think that they're character is the stronger.
There's the honor system of knowing what your character can and can't do, which falls to the roleplayer to play their own character accurately, but when it comes down to it, every instance of roleplay (combat or not) is pretty subjective to the people involved.
That's part of the reason why I wanted to make not just a role-based combat system, but a small strategic mini-game type of rp combat.
RE: Roleplay Combat - K'nahli - 11-02-2013
I also think that people should just admit to their strengths though. If another character is meant to be stronger than me(assuming he's not some random that walks along and claims to be the new heir to the empire's throne) then I have no problem with getting thrashed in a fight scene. I'd just like the same in return. For all I know people ARE more than willing to oblige, I just remain skeptical and avoid it regardless.
Two of my three 'main' characters are average fighters and are slightly above in a specific area unique to them both. On the other hand I have a third character who is literally meant to be strong. Being strong defines his personality because it has turned him into an arrogant piece of work and frankly I was looking forward to someone actually beating him at one point. Though against most typical or even "good" fighters I'd have liked him to come out on top. Albeit, I feel that people would deem that as too much to expect.
RE: Roleplay Combat - FreelanceWizard - 11-02-2013
(11-02-2013, 09:09 AM)Ninian Luneciel Wrote: So, what do you all think? What are your methods and ideals? I have a few other concepts I'd like to go over, but I wanted to try and start a bit of a discussion on the topic to try and nail my mechanics down.
In terms of the flow, to avoid powerposing, I think you've got the right model. It's basically:
Character 1 emotes the attack, but not the results.
Character 2 emotes the results, then their own attack, but not the results.
...and so on.
The target gets to emote the results so that consent is maintained.
Now, in terms of deciding the results that ultimately get emoted, there's a lot of options, which really means it needs to be discussed OOC in advance.
I personally like a dice roll mechanic based on a character sheet or, failing that, dice rolls with a level modifier, but I come from tabletop and the school of Levels Do Matter In RP. However, not everyone agrees with that, so there's always PVP match (once 2.1 hits), pre-planned results (we both know how the combat ends, so we trade blows until the pre-planned end), OOC negotiation before each attack, or even a fully-scripted scene. The key is for both players to discuss and agree on the resolution mechanic before the fight breaks out.Hopefully, Siobhain will weigh in on this, since running the Grindstone tournaments on Balmung has certainly granted some insight in how to run these sorts of events for large groups of people.
RE: Roleplay Combat - Ninian Lune'ciel - 11-02-2013
Hehe, in a perfect world I suppose we could play like that. Though this is the point of these discussion forums, I suppose. It's easy to be a skeptic considering it's up to every player of any rp to come to some agreement (spoken or not) as to what's happening with the scene.
I can relate when you say you're willing to take a beating if your character is fighting someone actually stronger. It means you're a responsible roleplayer xD. For characters looking to try their hand at IC fighting, it's pretty key to examine your character's strengths and weakness, but I suppose doesn't mean much unless you take your opponent's character into equal consideration, too.
For cases like your strong character, I guess you could hope that your karma holds out and people responsibly play their characters as well. Again though, 'perfect world' -.- . Out of curiosity, how have you fought before with that particular character?
--
But thanks, Freelance. That's the sort of input I was looking for and you hit the nail on the head when with 'OOC agreement'. I have a simple D20 sort of system tied to what I'm working with. I'm trying to keep it as simple as I can to keep it from being overbearing, but still in depth enough to have some weight to it.
RE: Roleplay Combat - Ildur - 11-02-2013
That's what I do, pretty much. It can be adapted to encounters involving more than two people by just stating a turn sequence OOCly beforehand. It also helps if there's some kind of HP system to know when a character is unable to continue the fight. Something simple like "each character has 5 hit points, meaning they can only sustain 5 hits before being defeated". More complex systems don't really work without organization and, the moment you do stablish a system for combat, you are basically making a tabletop RPG. Which doesn't really have anything wrong with it, except you won't be able to use it with strangers. Simply because a complex system requires introductions, notes and explanations. You lack the time to do all those when dealing with strangers. Even if you had the time chances are they won't like the idea of investing their time into learning an RP combat system.
For that reason, simplicity is best. Stablish turns (whomever initiated combat goes first), then his target. If there's more people involved, have them "Roll for Initiative". Then it's just a back and forth of actions and reactions. The (to hit) success threshold should be the same for everyone unless they are trying to do something that isn't in their expertise: like a character with no martial training trying to use a bow.
Combat rules can get more complex if it's an scheduled RP event instead of 'on the field' RP. I'd say you still need to keep the system real simple in those cases, because people might be turned off if it gets too complex.
RE: Roleplay Combat - FreelanceWizard - 11-02-2013
Yeah, I have to echo Ildur's point about game systems not really working well with strangers. In an LS/FC or a group of friends, you can all agree on a particular system to use; back in CoH, my SG had a game system we used that was based on CoH's 1d6 /roll emote and opposed rolls. However, it was optional and we only used it for events that were internal or with others who agreed to it in advance, since asking a person we just met to write a character sheet and dice to our system would've been asking quite a lot of them.
On the other hand, a full lightweight game system lets you do some interesting things in plots, since you're basically bringing some tabletop into the MMO. Such a thing's not to everyone's taste, though.I also concur that having an HP system if you use dicing is pretty important to keep a fight from going on forever. In my experience, 5 hits works well; it gives people time for a good back and forth without letting things drag on. Past that, you have to consider if Level Matters or if Level Doesn't Matter. If Level Matters, then you pretty much have to use opposed rolls with a level modifier (for a game with 50 levels, 1d100 + level is probably a good guideline). If Level Doesn't Matter, then a fixed difficulty (1d6, roll 4 or better or something) without opposed rolls works better, IMO. The important things are just to keep it simple and get buy-in OOC.
RE: Roleplay Combat - BlessedSilence - 11-02-2013
It can be difficult as this game has neither a duel nor /roll system, so emotes are the only way. Â You'd have to trust the other person to not keep their player from being hit etc.
RE: Roleplay Combat - K'dath - 11-02-2013
I am a table top player, so I am all about the rolls. But my introduction to that system in an MMORPG setting was... unfavorable.
I'd made a new character who'd been immediately co-opt'd into a friend's RP guild who was VERY strict about using rolls as the rule, something that blew my mind because I'd always just used, you know, common sense. But the GM was extremely anal retentive about 'I don't care if you're a good RPer, we all roll.' He was a player-run arena champion of the roll system and vouched for its vital necessity. He was ICly a combat master.
...and my level 12 Worgen Druid, who'd never held a weapon before that moment, ground him into human meat paste.
Twice.
And then that worgen was suplexed by a Gnome...
So I have pretty mixed feelings about it. If you're building a system then I'd say go the full TRPG route and draft up some merit/flaw points that'll add or subtract from their roll total.
RE: Roleplay Combat - Magellan - 11-02-2013
Yea I typically avoid combat RP cuz people just aren't realistic about how they play their character's strength and weaknesses.
I realize I prefer a pretty realistic combat style, and I that this is a fantasy setting, and that a lot of people want to explore that fantastical side of combat, which I'm not very good at.
Thankfully my characters don't really need to fight, so I've been able to avoid combat to this point =P
RE: Roleplay Combat - Ninian Lune'ciel - 11-02-2013
Sheesh, you guys are really bringing up all of the points I wanted to go into. My design has been with a tabletop system in mind this entire time, as they're just simple to implement into these types of roleplay. That's exactly what I'm bringing into this MMO, but the idea is to keep the system as minimalistic, yet dynamic as possible.
The idea is to provide a standardized form of combat that both sides are agreeing to through participation. It's a d20 system where two combatants choose from a small list of preset abilities, using roleplay to show their actions.
The fights would need to be moderated, but I would want the system finalized (at least on paper) before anything else. On that note, I want to post it here, but I don't want people to steal my stuff -.-
No offense.
But meh, you guys seem alright.
My hope is that people participating will only need to know the actions they need to pick (which could maybe be in-game mailed to participants), keeping their ability to participate relatively basic, while still seeming a bit more than straight emote combat. This is my first write up. Think you guys can help me?
RE: Roleplay Combat - Sigyn Shieldbreaker - 11-02-2013
Hello there. I herd u liek RP combat...
I love RP combat and hence, I started the Grindstone over on Balmung. The last week or so not-withstanding, it's been a pretty successful venture. More or less, your concept sounds exactly the same! Except that we're not really running an arena and our purpose is purely neutral-good aligned in nature.Â
If it helps you out at all, please feel free to look over our directory page. I keep most everything regarding our tournaments there, including our really simplistic roll system.
Step 1. Opponents roll; the person with the winning roll attacks first.
Step 2. The winner attacks; both competitors roll. If the attacker wins, the blow is successful. If the defender wins, the attack is evaded/countered.
Step 3. The defender either takes the hit and launches a counter attack or evades the blow and counterstrikes. Both opponents roll to see if the counter lands or is evaded/countered.
Step 4. Repeat this process until one attacker lands a set number of blows.
We use http://rolz.org/group to do our rolls. You don't have to worry about the honor system because your referees can be in the same room as the fighters each time and make sure whatever rules you come up with are followed. Also it saves the rolls from before an individual enters the room so long as there are people in said room.
Two things I want to point out to you in your planning:
1. Keep stress to a minimum: I try to keep the roll system super, super simple. The reason for this is to reduce stress. RP combat is one of the most disliked or at least stress-inducing aspects of roleplay from what I've seen and many, many people try to avoid it at all costs. The ones that don't commonly get into fights over outcomes or end up in super-long and complicated ordeals and eventually just get bored and quit.Â
You don't want to have a bunch of spectators sitting through a fight where the people involved are going to take several hours per fight because that makes the fighters feel awkward, hence why with our official tournaments we keep it to a three-strike win. I let my people make little variations here and there on how they'd like to handle things such as tie-rolls but for the most part we just can't do free form with strangers in the tournament. It's led to bad things in the past.
2. Try to keep posts relatively short for an event: Really descriptive RPers have a tendency to roll in a four paragraph post that takes maybe ten or fifteen minutes to write up which isn't really viable in a live event where several people will be around. Our tournaments can have up to sixteen people and take several hours to complete. Each fight can take from five to twenty minutes or more. One issue is people going AFK for emergencies, but that's relatively small. Sometimes we have people confused as to what should happen with a roll, but that's also relatively small. Usually it's someone who is writing a super huge post that's filled with superfluous details which is doubly problematic because their opponent has to read over the entire thing and then respond to it as realistically as possible. Then there's the potential issue of god-modding in a post that's too long because people begin to assume what their opponent is going to do. I like our fighters to keep tourney attacks to a two or three paragraph maximum instead of, say, six.
So those are the main two things. The last thing I can think of is making sure that opponents are partied together, in a chat room with a roll system together, and have someone watching over all the posts. You want to have to retcon as -little- as humanly possible but if you intend to be open to any walk-up fighters like the Grindstone is, then you run the risk of people not fighting the way that others are used to; which shouldn't be bad but it can create conflicts. So make sure all your rules and bases are covered.
Also: We have had issues before where individuals felt their character was 'too strong' for losing or at least losing to their opponent. Honestly, this is very hard for an outsider to discuss with people who aren't simply open-minded. For the most part, I've found a ton of people willing to play at a novice level and work their way up by fighting over and over and over again. I think some people assume Siobhain should be an exceedingly skilled fighter-- but the fact is that she's lost more fights than she's won and more often than not, that's -my- choice.
I've heard it said that roll-based RP isn't 'skill-based' enough for their liking because luck takes 'skill' out of the equation. Likewise, many of those same people share that exact feeling for PVP-based duels. I believe it helps to stress that people should be accepting of other styles and open-minded. You might want to do what I never did and screen your fighters before they get to participate in a tournament to prevent anyone who has RP combat misgivings from raging about how they wouldn't have lost if-- Well honestly, people rage over everything. From 'Well if we weren't rolling...' to 'This guy's grammar alone should make him lose' and so on. RP combat makes for lots of stress. I don't think your system is overly complicated but remember if you intend to let plenty of people participate, 'screening' them and teaching them your system before hand would likely remove a lot of the confusion and the delay in getting whatever events you have started.
On a side note your system looks really good and I think it would work out well-- you'd be avoiding any issues with retconning by having each post sent to the 'Battlemaster'. As long as everyone's posting and working and ciphering and such as quickly as possible, it shouldn't tack too much extra time onto the whole thing. I still think it would probably help a lot to have people learn the rules before participating in any events-- I know some of our people had issues with our super simplified system and remembering what they should do.
Good luck.
RE: Roleplay Combat - K'nahli - 11-02-2013
Oh, that made me think. Are battles realistic or do people actually us in-game moves and buffs and behave as though their characters suffer a barrage of arrows or sword strikes and merely lose "HP"? I have to say that wouldn't interest me at all. I definitely prefer realism.
Just a personal opinion of course! ^^
RE: Roleplay Combat - Sigyn Shieldbreaker - 11-02-2013
(11-02-2013, 01:27 PM)K Wrote: Oh, that made me think. Are battles realistic or do people actually us in-game moves and buffs and behave as though their characters suffer a barrage of arrows or sword strikes and merely lose "HP"? I have to say that wouldn't interest me at all. I definitely prefer realism.
Just a personal opinion of course! ^^
Many of the fighters I've had in the Grindstone are realistic-- they use variations, perhaps, of their in game moves but not the exact ones. Val Nunh is a spectacular fighter who uses his lance in... I mean I can't think of another style... a kind of kung fu-style both on offense and as defense? I love to see him fight. I love to fight him. Separately, Siobhain uses her sword and shield in a sort of hoplite style (minus spear) often leading with her shield and aiming for the arteries. She isn't flipping around through the air and Rage of Halone'ing or anything, but that's my preference. She does, however, use shield lob-- but every time she's ever flung her shield at someone, she's lost it for the rest of the fight. It's a last ditch effort sort of strategy.
As I said most of the fighters I've seen use more realistic tactics from styles of martial arts or weapons' play beyond what's included in the game. I've yet to fight many magic users or archers so I can't say how they treat their attacks and whether or not they're firing ten arrows at once or ripping up huge hunks of earth and flinging them at your face. I'd like to think they're open to interpretation though.
Another thing I enjoy about combating with my peeps is the realism of gravity and damage and weather. If it starts raining, Sio usually has to move slower or else, and this has happened, she'll either slide and get smacked in the face with someone or she'll be more prone to twisting her ankle and going down like a ton of bricks. She's not meant to be a super mobile fighter as a 'tank' type, so having to chase down her opponents makes situations like that more likely. Also our wounds build up over time (many of ours aren't the type to never take a hit until that last big one), but we do have one or two people who will 'lose' a match with a cut hand and nothing more. (Which is kinda weird when you think about our 'three strike rule' and how three successful strikes should have been landed but... Such is life.)