+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: RPing the Jobs (/showthread.php?tid=6101)
RPing the Jobs - Seriphyn - 01-11-2014
Howdy RPC,
My thoughts recently have drifted to the plausibility of RPing one of the jobs/prestige classes and mentioning this in-character. I've only got a PLD, and for that storyline, the Captain of the Sultansworn is training adventurers in the arts of the paladin to become 'free paladins', so I OOC accept the the PLD job is RPable. IC, though, I regularly have my character challenge the validity of 'free paladins', accusing Captain Jenlyns of "selling out" Ul'dahn military tradition by training "any two-bit adventurer" in arts that have been protected by the Sultansworn for centuries. But that's purely IC, although OOC, a lot of people seem to playing paladins as generic Lawful Good Western paladins, rather than the Ul'dahn definition of it (challenging Jenlyn's dialogue as that character's own personal interpretation here). But that's another debate.
ANYWAY, I was wondering about the viability of RPing, say, a white mage, when AFAIK only Padjal can be white mages (I don't know the job storyline). The WHM RPers I know tend to ignore their class and simply say they RP conjurers, which I can buy into. Or a dragoon...again AFAIK, dragoons are simply "Ishgardian lancers". I know one character who actually RPs an elezen Ishgardian though, but what about claiming to be a dragoon without any ties to Ishgard? I did mean to have my character say "Nice All Saints' Wake costume" to someone RPing in the DRG AF2 armour, haha.
What are people's policies on this? Curious to hear everyone's thoughts.
RE: RPing the Jobs - LiadansWhisper - 01-11-2014
._.
I feel like the topic on White Mages has been done to death.
Technically White Magic is still forbidden.
Per the WHM storyline, the only White Mages are Padjal - and you are the lone exception to that rule in the last 5 or so centuries, and only because A-Towa-Kant, or whatever, specifically chose you to be his successor.
And because the Elementals are actively monitoring Succor - that's the magic White Mages use - and monitoring its use by non-White Mages (i.e. Conjurers), it's hard to believe that some could just up and start using it without the Elementals going, "Dafuq?"
But, people should play what they want to play.
As for my character, she's a Conjurer and if someone were to claim to be a White Mage, she'd think they were lying or insane.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Seriphyn - 01-11-2014
Is there a need for "._."? I wasn't just asking about White Mages, but any job that infers a certain degree of special snowflake.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Tiergan - 01-11-2014
(01-11-2014, 01:35 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Is there a need for "._."? I wasn't just asking about White Mages, but any job that infers a certain degree of special snowflake.
I think it was less a ._. at you specifically and more a ._. at the specific topic. From what I've gathered, the White Mage lore is a sore spot for Seriphyn Liadan because of it's Super Snowflake Status.
I'm just glad both Paladin (and arguably Scholar) are both free from Special Snowflake lore problems.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Seriphyn - 01-11-2014
Oh, I'm not sore about anything, I was just wondering what jobs people consider RPable and what people don't. I don't know all the job lore especially.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Sounsyy - 01-11-2014
There are a lot of debates on this topic, and I'm sure this will spark some conflict here in a bit. But technically some jobs cannot be RP'd. According to lore.Â
PLD - Paladins are pretty free to RP. Any character can become a Free Paladin. However, if you want to RP a true Paladin, you must be an Ul'dahn Sultansworn. You are bound and sworn under oath to serve the Ul royal family until you drop dead.
WAR - Difficult to RP strictly to lore, but can be done. Warriors died out a long time ago due to disuse. The only place in the world where the ancient traditions are still taught are in a small Hellsguardian village in Agalaitia's Spine. Now, in the story, there are numerous Hellsguard warriors who leave Agalatia's Spine (it's actually a huge part of Hellsguard lore that many leave the tribe to seek fortunes in Eorzea) Â and appear throughout Eorzea. So it is entirely possible you ran across one of these WAR and somehow convinced him to teach you his ways. Either that or you made the treacherous hike to Agalatia's Spine (or sailed there) and learned the ways from the masters.
MNK - According to lore, these were all but wiped out by the King of Ruin in 1552. The Fist of Rhalgr (the MNKs) were accused of plotting against the King of Ala Mhigo. So he surrounded the temple (Star Wars Revenge of the Sith style) and slaughters all the MNKs within and burns the villages surrounding the temple. Also outlawing the worship of Rhalgr. While the vast majority of the Monks were killed, we do see in-lore evidence that there were some that escaped this fate. So very easy to say you've met one or were trained by one or are one on their journey to unlock their Chakra.
DRG - Very tricky. According to lore, there is only ONE, count em, ONE, Azure Dragoon chosen by Nidhogg's Eye every generation. In the DRG storyline it is stated that the choosing of a second Azure Dragoon (your character) during the same career of the first was unheard of. Never happened before. (Alberic and Estien don't count. Alberic laid down his lance and renounced his title of Dragoon the day he allowed Ferndale to burn. So Nidhogg's Eye chose the lone survivor of Ferndale, Estien.) Now, the Holy See has a ritual initiation of each Azure Dragoon. They forge a special set of magical armor that helps repel the influences of dragons and they craft a Gae Bolg specifically for each Dragoon. Without being a Chosen One by Nidhogg's Eye and the Holy See, you are not technically, according to lore, a true Dragoon. Even our character in game does not become a true dragoon. He/she has to steal the old armor off of other dead Dragoons and takes a Gae Bolg that belonged to another. If your character wants to do something like this, and then call themselves a Dragoon, that is totally plausible because it's what our in-game character is doing. However, you are not a true Dragoon.
BRD - Very easy to become. Bards are singing, storytelling, ale drinking, harp stringing archers at their finest. There are plenty of bards running around in the world. However, what makes Jehantel famous, and why a lot of people confuse him as The Bard, is because he has the very exclusive title of Godsbow. Now Godsbow was a title first given to Gilbert, a very famous bard from about 500 years ago who slew 7 Ixali Chieftans with a single arrow. The Gridanians crafted this archer the first Artemis Bow (bowharp) so that he could play his music and slay people and look dang graceful doing it. The original Artemis Bow was kept in the God's Quiver (Archer's Guild) after Gilbert passed, until it was stolen in an Ixali raid. Since Gilbert's time, replicas of the original Artemis bow were made and traditionally used by Bard's given the Godsbow title. (Ie in game you don't receive the Godsbow title until you complete the Relic Reborn quest for Bard.)
BLM - With the total decimation of the Thaumaturgy and Black Mage lore of 1.0, this job is now super easy to become. Ugh. Now, in 1.0 this job was FORBIDDEN because in the 5th Astral Era, driven mages of both Black and White began competing with each other to create the latest, greatest, biggest, and baddest magic the world had ever seen. Now, while it was ultimately White Magic that ushered in the Sixth Umbral Era, Black Magic was a major contributing factor and the practice was lost, forbidden, and hidden away from the world. Now, several beastmen family lines kept up the traditions of Black Magic in secret. And about 100~120ish years before the start of the main story, a young thaumaturge named Ququruka uncovered the lost arts and dedicated his life to studying the art. It ultimately ended badly for him... HOWEVER, in ARR, the leaders of the Thaumaturgy Guild are all Black Mage brothers. So clearly the art is no longer forbidden. Probably set in motion by the events of the BLM quest in 1.0. Now, you cannot be taught the art of Black Magic, you must learn it through self study and dedication and a certain soul-selling to the Void, but it can be done by any Thaumaturge who is dedicated and has sufficient stores of aether.
WHM - If you are wanting to go 100% by the lore as written by the creators, then NO, you cannot become a White Mage. During the 5th Astral Era the Elementals taught the children of Eorzea Succor in order to balance out the chaos created by Black Mages. However, the need for greater and greater magics only tipped the scales towards more chaos. Succor was abused and the Twelveswood came to harm as a result. So the Elementals caused a deluge and flood that washed the world clean of the taint of magic. The Wood grew and rose from the ground and none were allowed entrance. Fastforward to Gelmorra, Elezen and Hyur make a pact, they live under the twelveswood for a while trying to commune with the Elementals. This bond of fellowship probably inspired the Elementals to consider giving them a second chance. The Elementals sent moogles to communicate with the Gelmorrans and they were taught Conjury. Which is an abstract form of Succor. It is basically the ability to manipulate the aether in Nature. Elementals are the Aether in Nature, so this mastery of Conjury would allow communication. Now, the Pact of Gelmorra was struck between the Gelmorrans and the Elementals. The Gelmorrans could live among the Wood, but they could not ever allow the Wood to come to harm, they could never abuse the magic gifted to them, and they could never take from the Wood in excess without giving back. They were meant only to heal the Wood as it's caretakers. Around this time, the Elementals also blessed select families of the original Conjurers. These Conjurer's children became Padjal. The Padjal race were physically altered by the aether so that when the child reached puberty, their bodies would stop growing and they would grow horns instead. As they grew, their horns would grow, but their bodies would remain children forever. This prevented them from breeding or really having promiscuous thoughts away from being caretakers or channels of the Elementals. These Padjal were entrusted with the true power of Succor. They had to keep it safe and secret and hidden, lest the world abuse it again. That is why only Padjal are White Mages, and the 2.0 story is very loose in it's reasoning for even giving the in-game character the means of Succor. Because A-Towa-Cant, a very eccentric Padjal, chooses you to be his successor specifically. At least in the 1.0 storyline, you meet an actual Elemental named Oha-Sok, who gives you her own power so that you can use Succor. She also gives up her physical body to become the Healer's Robe AF body and grants you protection and a source of succor that way. So, very hard to replicate such things in the RP world without breaking the law of the lore.
And I haven't done all of the job story quests for SMN and SCH so I won't pretend to know those.
Now, like I said in my last post on this topic:
It ultimately boils down to a choice each roleplayer has to make. Do you:
A) Respect the lore for this world as imagined by the creators, or
B) Ignore the lore to some degree or entirely in favor of doing things the way you want to do them.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Naunet - 01-11-2014
Honestly, fuck the lore wherever it disallows a player from roleplaying a class you can choose to be in-game. Restricting the lore behind jobs such that only ONE SPESHUL SNOWFLAKE UBER GUY/LADY can become them is quite seriously the dumbest "lore" move I've ever seen an MMO make and it doesn't deserve being given the time of day.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Jomoru - 01-11-2014
The class guilds are not the only methods in Eorzea to obtain skills, they are rather the most open legal methods. There are for example plenty of Cnj type mobs running around in the beast tribes(similar with Thm), while one could argue "game mechanics" the blm quests out and out have you join up with a cabal of would be black mages who are members of the beast tribes.
Now with that being the case a non Gridania trained CNJ who illegally gains access to white magic could be an interesting concept. I wouldn't suggest it for everyone but it seems lore possible. Â The character probably should keep on the downlow when in the shroud though.
If one wanted to have a more legal type I'm more than willing to accept that the WHM quest line was the first of a new breed necissary for the dawn of a new Astral era. It brings it closer in like to SMN, SCH, BRD, WR etc.
Dragoon of course.. has a much more interesting potential Lore sidestreet. Ishgard could only field one or two Azure Dragoons... but Dravinia could easily field those who call upon the dragon's power without it being stolen.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Seriphyn - 01-11-2014
Incredible post by Sounsyy, thank you.
To Naunet's post of "fuck the lore"...well, I agree with the classes, but the jobs I respectfully disagree. To compare, the very word 'samurai' is associated with the nation of Japan in the real world. There's no such thing as a samurai of France or a samurai of the Congo. Similarly, in FFXIV, the words 'paladin' and 'dragoon' are associated with the nations of Ul'dah and Ishgard respectively, despite whatever real-life origins these words have (words come from somewhere after all). IMO, claiming to be a paladin and not acknowledging the lore behind it is very similar to someone claiming to be an Imam in service to the Church of England.
Ofc, people can RP what they want, true, but I'd expect I'll be giving these people a hard time in-character. There are bigger concerns than bothering someone and antagonizing people OOC over such things
RE: RPing the Jobs - Tiergan - 01-11-2014
(01-11-2014, 02:15 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Oh, I'm not sore about anything, I was just wondering what jobs people consider RPable and what people don't. I don't know all the job lore especially.
DERP! I meant Liadan, not you. I should not use the forums before morning coffee. Apologies!
RE: RPing the Jobs - FreelanceWizard - 01-11-2014
Based on the initial job quest for SMN and SCH, if you're going strictly by those:
Summoner -- Easy, if you hold to the main scenario quest too. All it requires is that you become attuned to a Primal's energies without being Tempered (most commonly by defeating it in battle), then summon and defeat its egi to bend it to your will. Any Arcanist with the Echo can, therefore, be a Summoner.
Scholar -- The quest has you uncovering a set of tablets from Nym that describe the art at the behest of a marauder of the Coral Tower. At the same time, you end up freeing from a locked box one of the faeries of Nym, which is apparently quite a rare thing. So, it's tricky for more than one person to be a Scholar if you're playing strictly to the job quest, as while multiple tablets and documents could be found, the faeries themselves are seemingly rare.
IMO, I think people should play what they want to play, especially since the written lore ("there's only one dragoon") and the game system abstraction of lore ("anyone with enough time and effort can be a dragoon") differ so severely. We all pick and choose pieces of the main scenario quest and its lore that work with our characters; for instance, some choose not to have the Echo, even though the MSQ makes it abundantly clear that many people have it and certainly all PCs do. Conversely, almost every RPer dispenses with the "you're the personal envoy of your city-state" part of the MSQ, because it's far too centered on a single character. On that basis, I don't see any reason why people can't view the job quests similarly -- take what's generic or can be easily made generic from the quest if desired, then fill in the blanks with what works narratively. You can even take this one step further and view the job quests in the same way as the non-generic parts of the main scenario quest. In this model, the job quests are something that Some Great Hero did, and in doing so, opened the doors to a revival of the job through other means.
That said, it just seems sensible that people who have jobs that have been historically forbidden (Black Mage, White Mage) or extremely restricted (Dragoon, Scholar) would keep their abilities quiet to avoid all the IC consequences that can come about from that. From zealots wanting to "purify the heretic" to supplicants begging for aid, advertising you have some rare power seems imprudent. I'm not saying that's how it has to be played, but it seems to me that a newly minted White Mage (through whatever means) wouldn't go advertising that fact.
In practice, I don't RP any of the jobs. My character's an especially talented and skilled user of magic. That her spells may have similarities to those vaunted abilities of the legendary Jobs of Eras Past is chalked up to coincidence.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Ildur - 01-11-2014
Dragoon and White Mage are the Jobs with the most trouble for roleplaying if you want to stick to the lore. As Naunet said, I think that if the game mechanics allow you to be a certain class, then you free to be it on your characters. This is a clear case of the developers trying to bake the cake ("White Magic/Dragooning is, like, super speshiul!") and then eat it ("You, our players, are super speshiul!").
But there's been enough of that.
For all the other classes, Sounsyy has covered them. I will chime in to talk about Summoners and Schoalrs, though: EDIT: Or FreeLanceWizard will come in, do it before I do and better.
SMN: The canonical storyline has a Miqo'te woman actively tell you about summoning and teach you about it. The only stated requeriment for summoning is that you have to be 'dowsed' in a Primal's essence, in this case by defeating them. Mechanicall, your summons are locked until you complete the corresponding Primal fight. This tells us summoning can and is being teached to Arcanists as long as they were present in a fight against a Primal, a thing which, in itself, is also inside the realm of possibility as Primals are constantly summoned by the beast tribes.
SCH: You become a Scholar by finding a fairy (and the soul crystal) locked inside a Nymian chest (or something like that). The questline is pretty much all about running around trying to unlock your fairy's memories and being taught about Nymian tactics by an erudite marauder. It is quite safe to assume that one could study the spells and learn to use them even without a fairy.
The only thing to keep in mind is that all Jobs require a Soul Crystal. We know they exist canonically as you are not only given one in the storylines, but they feature prominently in some of them (like Warrior's). How you acquire one is up to you.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Naunet - 01-11-2014
(01-11-2014, 02:53 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: To Naunet's post of "fuck the lore"...well, I agree with the classes, but the jobs I respectfully disagree. To compare, the very word 'samurai' is associated with the nation of Japan in the real world. There's no such thing as a samurai of France or a samurai of the Congo. Similarly, in FFXIV, the words 'paladin' and 'dragoon' are associated with the nations of Ul'dah and Ishgard respectively, despite whatever real-life origins these words have (words come from somewhere after all). IMO, claiming to be a paladin and not acknowledging the lore behind it is very similar to someone claiming to be an Imam in service to the Church of England.
Restricting a certain class (job, whatever you want to call it) to a particular region is completely different from the lengths Squeenix has gone and is totally fine. It's no different than the backstory all Death Knights had to at least initially follow in WoW. It gets absurd when only one person ever is allowed to actually be that class/job, even though the game allows as many people who want to level it to do so.
RE: RPing the Jobs - Aurelie Eleveur - 01-11-2014
As for dragoons, the way a buddy and I rp'd it (and I still do, since he's left the game seemingly permanently), is that there are more than one Dragoons. Doing the quests in Coerthas proves this. There is, however, only one Azure Dragoon (special snowflake for the PC). Neither of us were such. We were chosen to be dragoons, but aren't uber-uber dragoons.
Our characters did become accomplished enough to receive our Drachen mail, and mine enough to earn her Gae Bolg. Otherwise, we were just ordinary dragoons who were a little more accomplished than your typical foot-soldier type dragoon. Hope that helps!
RE: RPing the Jobs - Ildur - 01-11-2014
I use the interpretation that Dragoons refer to a special brand of knights of Ishgard whose combat tactics can be summarized as "I will jump to that dragon's back and stab him to death. No, I don't care it's flying. See ya!"