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Elementals - ansemaru - 01-16-2014

Starting a new thread for this so the thread on playing White Mages isn't totally derailed.

I'm going to start it off with some questions that have been bothering me, since questions seem to be the best way to prompt discussion.
  • What is the difference between an elemental and a Primal? They're both powerful entities manifested from aether, whose will does not always favor the lives and well-being of mortals. Neither of them are part of the Twelve, but they are both regarded as powerful- though the former are respected and deferred to, while the latter are violently opposed.
  • Is the Black Shroud actually a holy region, or is it a case of ascribing divine intent to natural aetheric activity? Just because the game is in the fantasy genre doesn't mean all assertions about something being magical/divine are true.
  • Is the will of the elementals something that modern Eorzeans should carry out? They do not have the best interest of the people in mind, and never have- only their own interest. The Gridanians made peace with them, but this peace is kept at the expense of countless individuals from outside their original pact.
  • Are the elementals as powerful as they used to be? The Greenwrath was a terrible thing in 1.0, for certain, but in 2.0 it appears to not be as active or dangerous. Did the Calamity or the shifts in the world's aether weaken the influence of the elementals, or are they just an element of the story Square has decided to ignore for the purposes of writing the game?
I admit it may be kind of obvious that I have a different perspective on the issue of elementals than a lot of the people involved in previous threads. I don't necessarily believe that they're a force for good or an all-powerful force that must needs be appeased rather than avoided or opposed. And I admit I'm also quite sensitive to the plight of the Duskwights, the Ala Mhigans, the Keepers of the Moon, the beast tribes, and all of those cast out or alienated by traditional Gridanian thinking. But I want to have an open discussion about this, because it's a fascinating topic, and I think it'd be a shame if it were kept only to tangents in somewhat-related threads.

RE: Elementals - LiadansWhisper - 01-16-2014

(01-16-2014, 07:12 PM)ansemaru Wrote: [*]What is the difference between an elemental and a Primal? They're both powerful entities manifested from aether, whose will does not always favor the lives and well-being of mortals. Neither of them are part of the Twelve, but they are both regarded as powerful- though the former are respected and deferred to, while the latter are violently opposed.

I typed this out and it got eaten somehow. The basic difference is that Primals require huge amounts of aether to summon, and once summoned, they consume massive amounts of aether to keep their corporeal forms. They can (and have) stripped the land of so much aether that it dies.

As far as we know, Elementals require no aether to summon, and they do not need to consume aether to remain corporeal. Now, it may simply be that Elementals consciously refuse to consume the aether, or that they simply can't (given that they are aether themselves). Also, as was pointed out in the other thread, the Elementals are nature aether given form, which seems to differentiate them from Primals (who exist outside of aether, and use aether to give themselves a corporeal form).

Quote:I admit it may be kind of obvious that I have a different perspective on the issue of elementals than a lot of the people involved in previous threads. I don't necessarily believe that they're a force for good or an all-powerful force that must needs be appeased rather than avoided or opposed.

I've never said they were a force for good.

Quote:And I admit I'm also quite sensitive to the plight of the Duskwights,

Has nothing to do with the Elementals.  In fact, there were Duskwights involved in the initial peace between mankind and the Elementals.  Remember, everyone was living in caves.  Duskwights are the ones who never left the caves.

Quote:the Ala Mhigans,

We don't know what that particular Ala Mhigan did, but there are other Ala Mhigan refugees who have been accepted into Gridania.  In particular, during the Carpentry quest you run into one that's a high-ranking officer in the Twin Adders.  What's more, Ala Mhigo was not a sunshines and puppies place.  They were a serous issue for Gridania prior to the coup that placed the Garleans in power.  Also: Forestborn are xenophobic.  We are told this repeatedly.

Quote:the Keepers of the Moon,

Okay, I get that you are referencing the poacher tribes.  But you realize that there are quite a few Keepers of the Moon who are already in Gridania, accepted as citizens?  They're even in the Twin Adders, and you work with several on a few quests.  Is there static between some of them (specifically between Elezen and some Miqo'te), yes.  That doesn't mean that the Elementals are excluding them.  The poachers are either those who refused to live under the same rules as the rest of the Gridanians, or they are very possibly migrating tribes fleeing the situation north and east of the Shroud.

Quote:the beast tribes,

I don't even know why you are making a fuss about this with regards to Gridania/the Elementals.  As far as we know, the Ixal were exiled because they broke their end of the pact with the Elementals.  They weren't immediately killed, they were just kicked out.  Gridania had a peaceful pact with them, and we have no reason to believe it was Gridania that broke the deal, given the Ixali penchant for doing such themselves.  Gridania has a standing pact with the Sylphs - something that Ul'dah, for instance, doesn't really understand.  There's peace between those two peoples, and Gridania hasn't broken their end of the deal, nor do they abuse or otherwise harm the Sylphs.  The Elementals, for their part, appear to accept the Sylphs as part of the forest as well.  There's no reason to believe either is actively mistreating the Sylphs.

Seriously, if you wanna go after someone for how they treat the beastribes, go look at Ul'dah or Limsa.  Gridania and the Elementals come off looking like fucking saints in comparison.

Quote:and all of those cast out or alienated by traditional Gridanian thinking.

Far as I know, it isn't incumbent on Gridania to change to suit outsiders.  Outsiders should be changing to suit Gridania.

Quote:But I want to have an open discussion about this, because it's a fascinating topic, and I think it'd be a shame if it were kept only to tangents in somewhat-related threads.

True!

RE: Elementals - ansemaru - 01-16-2014

The forestborn "returned" Gelmorra to the elementals while the Duskwights were still living there. As in actively living there. So they're now barred from their ancestral homeland by the Gridanians and elementals, who they'd rejected by living there, even though it's pretty clear they're very interested in still living there.

RE: Elementals - raindrops - 01-16-2014

(01-16-2014, 07:36 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: [*]Far as I know, it isn't incumbent on Gridania to change to suit outsiders.  Outsiders should be changing to suit Gridania.

I have to say I'm a little confused by this - should people like the duskwights be spontaneously turning into wildwoods in order to be allowed into Gridania? The major problem isn't unwillingness to change, it's the fact that Gridanians don't want them around at all.

RE: Elementals - LiadansWhisper - 01-16-2014

(01-16-2014, 07:44 PM)ansemaru Wrote: The forestborn "returned" Gelmorra to the elementals while the Duskwights were still living there. As in actively living there. So they're now barred from their ancestral homeland by the Gridanians and elementals, who they'd rejected by living there, even though it's pretty clear they're very interested in still living there.

As far as I know, at the time the "Forestborn" (which would be Elezen and Hyur) were living with the Duskwights.  Now, I'm not extremely familiar with Elezen Lore, but I was under the impression that the issue isn't with the Elementals - the issue is that there is racism between the two subraces of Elezen.  And since one subrace has a huge amount of influence over Gridanian politics, the other subrace is being actively excluded because of their race.

(01-16-2014, 07:53 PM)raindrops Wrote: I have to say I'm a little confused by this - should people like the duskwights be spontaneously turning into wildwoods in order to be allowed into Gridania? The major problem isn't unwillingness to change, it's the fact that Gridanians don't want them around at all.

I never got the impression that it was Gridanians as a whole.  It seems very much focused on the Wildwood Elezen, who then influence their brethren.  As I said above, I'm not super familiar with Elezen Lore, but from what I've seen solely in quests, the Wildwood hate the Duskwights.

However, it doesn't help that SE seems to use Duskwights only in antagonist/villian roles.

RE: Elementals - ansemaru - 01-16-2014

The fact of the matter is that the Wildwoods, who more or less run things, used the elementals as a means to actively put the Duskwights at a disadvantage. And the elementals, having absolutely no regard for the well-being of mortals, carried out this role perfectly! Just how they carried out their role of continually antagonizing Ala Mhigans who did nothing to actually hurt them. They've been used as a sort of supernatural guard dog that just so happens to stand between people the Wildwoods (and to a lesser degree Gridanian Midlanders) don't like and actually living a fulfilled life.

RE: Elementals - raindrops - 01-16-2014

The Lancer quest (in which a Duskwight who confessed to a crime was punished disproportionately harshly while his non-duskwight accomplices went unpunished), as well as Buscarron's quests (which state that his place is the only one in Gridania that will serve duskwights - whether the canopy is an exception or whether that's a case of 'make exceptions for the PC is unclear), make it pretty clear that it's the whole of Gridania. No doubt this was caused over generations of influence by the wildwoods, but the end result is pretty much the same.

RE: Elementals - LiadansWhisper - 01-16-2014

(01-16-2014, 08:02 PM)ansemaru Wrote: The fact of the matter is that the Wildwoods, who more or less run things, used the elementals as a means to actively put the Duskwights at a disadvantage. And the elementals, having absolutely no regard for the well-being of mortals, carried out this role perfectly! Just how they carried out their role of continually antagonizing Ala Mhigans who did nothing to actually hurt them. They've been used as a sort of supernatural guard dog that just so happens to stand between people the Wildwoods (and to a lesser degree Gridanian Midlanders) don't like and actually living a fulfilled life.

Could you explain how the Elementals play into this?  As far as I know, a person can't declare Greenwrath.  You actually have to do something to fall under it.

(01-16-2014, 08:12 PM)raindrops Wrote: The Lancer quest (in which a Duskwight who confessed to a crime was punished disproportionately harshly while his non-duskwight accomplices went unpunished), as well as Buscarron's quests (which state that his place is the only one in Gridania that will serve duskwights - whether the canopy is an exception or whether that's a case of 'make exceptions for the PC is unclear), make it pretty clear that it's the whole of Gridania. No doubt this was caused over generations of influence by the wildwoods, but the end result is pretty much the same.

That was kind of my point, though. It's racism between two subraces that's been expanded out because of the Wildwood hold on Gridania.  But I don't recall the Elementals being directly involved.  If they had been, they'd just Greenwrath every Duskwight that shows up, but they don't seem to really care about them at all.

RE: Elementals - ansemaru - 01-16-2014

The point is that the Wildwoods use the natural behavior of elementals as a tool and justification to further their discrimination against Duskwights and outsiders.

RE: Elementals - raindrops - 01-16-2014

It's largely that the connection is the other way around. The elementals probably don't care about duskwights - the game goes of of its way to main the point that the redbellies have a lot of very capable conjurers, and like you said they've lasted this long without being greenwrath'd.

The connection is people in Gridania saying that the elementals have a problem with them. This comes up in some levequests (there's definitely a mining one (infuritatingly enough, not one that's on my list right now) that can be summed up as 'so the Duskwights are trying to make Gelmorra livable again so the redbellies can live without being criminals? Suddenly the elementals hate the ruins of Gelmorra and we need to smash them up!') and in NPC dialogue, I'll try to find/screencap.

The short version is that it's less 'the elementals have a problem with duskwights' and more 'gridanians say the elementals have a problem with duskwights as an excuse to make thier lives difficult'.

(I've also heard a lot of people talk about how the Gridanians aren't xenophobic at all and that their dislike of the duskwights is entirely elemental-related, but I'm not sure where they got that from ingame and I suspect that it's not the case.)

RE: Elementals - LiadansWhisper - 01-16-2014

(01-16-2014, 08:36 PM)raindrops Wrote: It's largely that the connection is the other way around. The elementals probably don't care about duskwights - the game goes of of its way to main the point that the redbellies have a lot of very capable conjurers, and like you said they've lasted this long without being greenwrath'd.

The connection is people in Gridania saying that the elementals have a problem with them. This comes up in some levequests (there's definitely a mining one (infuritatingly enough, not one that's on my list right now) that can be summed up as 'so the Duskwights are trying to make Gelmorra livable again so the redbellies can live without being criminals? Suddenly the elementals hate the ruins of Gelmorra and we need to smash them up!') and in NPC dialogue, I'll try to find/screencap.

Yes, I remember that quest.  I found it really strange because those ruins are all over the shroud and that is the only place where someone was like, "Oh, the Elementals say we can't have this, because it's bad."

Quote:The short version is that it's less 'the elementals have a problem with duskwights' and more 'gridanians say the elementals have a problem with duskwights as an excuse to make thier lives difficult'.

That was my take on the subject, too.  And, it should be pointed out, I am not entirely sure that everyone in Gridania agrees with that mindset, but those who do make up the more powerful families.  I get the impression from several of the profession quests that the prejudice is ingrained in many, but not in all.

Quote:(I've also heard a lot of people talk about how the Gridanians aren't xenophobic at all and that their dislike of the duskwights is entirely elemental-related, but I'm not sure where they got that from ingame and I suspect that it's not the case.)

Yeah, I have no idea where people came up with the idea that Gridanians aren't xenophobic.  It's hammered home in quest after quest that they absolutely are.

RE: Elementals - Sounsyy - 01-16-2014

Let's be fair that Gridanians are xenophobic in general, not just to specific sets of outsiders. However, there's a strong dislike against Ala Mhigans because 100 years before the start of gameplay, the Gridanians and the Ala Mhigans were engaged in a vicious war. The Gridanians called for aid but only Ishgard answered their pleas. With the combined forces of the Gridanians, Ishgardians, and Elementals, Gridania was able to repel the Ala Mhigan advance. As Gridanians in general don't seem to be a people who quickly forget past wrongs, I doubt they have warm fuzzy feelings for very many Ala Mhigans. This could also just be attributed to plain ol' xenophobia. In 1.0 there was a Main Storyline mission that actually involved Gridanian Wailers and Quivermen aiding members of the Ala Mhigan Resistance. There's a huge uproar when the Garleans try to attack the Sylphlands as well. Gridania was very helpful to their plight, standing alongside Ala Mhigan Resistance members.

Duskwights seemed to get shunned because they were unwilling to leave Gelmorra when the Elementals offered the Twelveswood to them. Which is understandable? The city was their home for 1000 years. Hard to just pack up and leave. But perhaps the Wildwood viewed this as disrespectful to refuse the Elemental's Gift? After all, the Gelmorrans had been trying to earn access to the Wood for a 1000 years. And then to just give it up? I'm sure this lead to a very divisive argument. Now, considering those who left and founded Gridania were the Elemental's Chosen People, not hard to imagine Wildwood looking down on their Duskwight brothers. Pride is in Elezen nature.

Keepers are seen in droves within Gridania. They are an accepted part of the Gridanian culture. However, we also see many families of Keepers who prefer to live among the Wood and are poachers. Poachers tend to not be looked highly upon by Nature-loving folk. Just saying. We don't typically see a lot of prejudice against Keeper NPCs, but there is some. But let's think about it. When you live in an isolated Colony type society that is highly xenophobic and a little bit racist, you're bound to face some racial stereotyping.



On the subject of Elementals VS Primals. We know that Primals were created by the Twelve to be servants of the Twelve, before Man ever came to Eorzea. We also know that several Beast Tribes attribute their creation to their Primal deities.

Now, all that aside. I think the key difference is that Elementals are not "summoned." This is their world. They are a part of Hydaelyn. Primals, however, do not belong on this plane. That is why it consumes a terrifying amount of aether to bring one into this world and even more aether to maintain its presence here. It literally kills the planet because they do not belong on this planet.

Elementals are within every rock, tree, and river. Whether or not they choose to reveal themselves is another matter. And in most cases, even the Elementals within the Twelveswood don't reveal themselves unless angered. But they are there. They whisper to those who will listen.

Also, the Primals are not all inherently evil. It is believed that the massive amount of aether corrupts them when they are summoned. A perfect example of this is Good King Moggle Mog. Who isn't technically a primal, but was summoned in the same fashion as Primals. He was a benevolent king. He sacrificed himself to free his people for Gods sakes. Yet when he is summoned, the aether corrupts him and he becomes malevolent.


(01-16-2014, 08:36 PM)raindrops Wrote: (I've also heard a lot of people talk about how the Gridanians aren't xenophobic at all and that their dislike of the duskwights is entirely elemental-related, but I'm not sure where they got that from ingame and I suspect that it's not the case.)

While I disagree that Gridanians aren't xenophobic. I think there's a valid argument for the reason Gridanians are xenophobic is because of the Elementals. Because in Gelmorra, they weren't xenophobic at all. In fact, they welcomed Hyur with open arms where everywhere else in the world there was bloody territorial wars between Elezen and Hyur. 

But imagine you made a Pact with the Elementals, and in this Pact a huge part of the agreement is that you will protect the forest from any and all harm. You will not take from it in excess. You will not abuse the Home that was given you. But only you and your people even know about this Pact! I think you would be extremely mistrusting of outsiders. This fear of outsiders screwing everything up can quickly turn to hatred of outsiders. 500 years of this mistrust and hate will turn into xenophobia. Being an isolationist society doesn't help either. Gridanians did not accept Outsiders until the war against Ala Mhigo where they needed Ishgard to save their skins.

RE: Elementals - ansemaru - 01-16-2014

Wouldn't it follow with the elementals being part of nature and formed from aether, but not typically physically manifested, that their physical manifestation would use up aether in the same way that any other non-corporeal entity manifesting from the aether would?

RE: Elementals - Sounsyy - 01-16-2014

(01-16-2014, 09:56 PM)ansemaru Wrote: Wouldn't it follow with the elementals being part of nature and formed from aether, but not typically physically manifested, that their physical manifestation would use up aether in the same way that any other non-corporeal entity manifesting from the aether would?

Well when a Primal is summoned, and then summarily killed, the aether used in the summoning and maintenance of his form is lost forever. Because they are not a part of this world. Its expended bringing them into this world.

The Elementals are a part of this world. So no aether is lost when they become visible to us. They're never not there, just not revealing themselves. When they appear, they are simply changing form. Like water into water vapor. Vapor turning back into water. Nothing is really lost. Odd analogy, I know, but it kinda works.

RE: Elementals - ansemaru - 01-16-2014

I thought summoning/killing a Primal disrupted the flow of aether, rather than destroying aether forever. The issue would be the massive concentrations of it that then disperse over very specific locations, rather than "massive concentration>oh that aether is gone forever".

Also, now I've got another question. If the Primals were created as the servants of the Twelve, why are they so universally regarded as the pinnacle of evil? As far as I know, they never rebelled like the Scions in Ivalice... Or, for that matter, why would the Twelve create servants that disrupt the world and damage its balance of aether/Hydaelyn so much?

Actually, are the Twelve even aligned with Hydaelyn?