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An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Printable Version

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An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - White - 06-04-2014

For several years now, I've been a leader of RP guilds and other RP-related groups or websites. At first I kinda just got dragged into it, as I'm a rather passive person and not much of a leader, but I quickly found that even though it was tough work and it often put me out of my element, I enjoyed being a leader. Now anyone who has run a guild knows the problems are inevitable, and the bigger your guild is and the longer it lives the more problems you'll run into. It comes with the territory.

However, in XIV I feel like I've run into more problems (and more problem members), than I have in any other game. It's left me stressed and burnt out, and to be honest running a guild--the thing that used to make me feel happy and energized--now makes me stressed and grumpy. I'm strongly considering not creating my own guild in whatever MMO I will end up playing next because it doesn't feel like it's worth the effort if it will be like another repeat of my time in XIV, but it hurts to think about refraining from doing the thing I used to enjoy because it's been ruined for me.

In all the groups I've ran, I've embraced strong philosophies of tolerance and freedom. I've always accepted people who were a little weird, who liked things I found a little disagreeable, who weren't the best RPers or maybe not the best gamers, who were a little rough around the edges, who didn't speak or understand the most English, even people I personally didn't like. I've accepted people who had reputations on the server of being trolls, or ERP fiends, or elitists, or just plain weird, because I believe in giving everyone a chance, and because I've dealt with having some pretty colorful and not necessarily accurate "reputations" myself. In all my guilds we haven't had many strict, concrete rules--most of if not all of our policies could be summarized with the simple statement of "be respectful to others."

And in the past, this has all worked out pretty well. There were a few bumps along the road, but that's to be expected. However, in XIV this has been another story. It's also my belief that as a guild leader, my job is to provide my members with opportunities. Ultimately, it's up to them to seize them. I don't have the time, energy, or desire to spoonfeed content 50 people, or even one person. We're all adults; I'm no one's mom. I guess the most frequent problem I've run into is we try to have events and plotlines and statics for people, but they don't participate unless we hold their hand through it all.

To get to the point of this giant rant, I suppose XIV has left me feeling discouraged and wondering if I should bother making a guild in whichever game the fates take me next. I have considered a solution, but I really don't know if it will save me stress and strife, or only cause more drama. The idea is a very small, exclusive, strict FC with a hardcore "no BS" policy. The problem is that the idea doesn't entirely sit well with me in that it's the opposite of everything I've ever done and the ideals I try to embrace, and also that I'm afraid people will view it as "elitist" or "snobby." I'm afraid the server in general will sneer at us, and the people we have to deny or kick for behaving below our standards will lash back and try to cause more conflict or slander our name, which is something I've dealth with enough already in XIV.

And when I say strict and exclusive, I mean it. I would want only members who are skilled at RP, decent at PvE, and most importantly, mature and rational people with ambition and the desire to communicate and work through problems. But I'm someone who likes to give everyone a chance, or two, or three. I like to help people improve rather than denying them for not already being skilled off. I like to offer a safe and happy home for all the "misfits." So the idea of rejecting people for not being "good enough," or for being too moody and hot-headed, or for being too dependent and gloomy is difficult for me to embrace.

Furthermore, I think some of my policies would be kinda controversial to begin. I've decided I don't want furries, or lolicons, or futas, or Mary Sue's, or shallow trope-y characters, or abundantly try-hard "edgy" characters, super lore Nazis or on the flip side people who ignore lore together, or people whose RP revolves around lesbian cat girl ERP, or people whose entire characters and role-play are solely for the purpose of ERP in general. Perhaps it's making a generalization to say this, but every member we've had who falls into one of these above mentioned categories has eventually and inevitably caused problems and haven't contributed much to our guilds but drama, and the type of RP they're going for simply does not mesh up with our goals and storylines and isn't the quality we're hoping for, so having them around is a lose-lose situation for both parties.

I'm afraid having those sort of notions as a guild would get us labeled as snobs or bullies when it's really not the case. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances--both IRL and online--interested in such things, and more power to 'em. I consider myself accepting and tolerant of these things and don't think less of anyone for it, but at the same time, they're not the type of member base I want for my guild. All in all, I guess I'm considering that it's time I trust my gut instinct about people rather people rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt and a chance (or two, or three, or four) only for them to throw it back into my face and do nothing more for our guild than cause problems. I don't know if that's cynical or just realistic, but that's how I'm feeling.

So... what I want to know is everyone's thoughts and input on this? Is it cynicism or realism? Is it snobby? Is it practical? Is it practical but likely to be seen as snobby? Would limiting the quantity and strengthening the quality of our members this way cause more drama for us, or less drama?

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Austratus - 06-04-2014

This is a topic that I empathize with quite a bit.

I've only played two other MMOs other than FFXIV (both of them of the superhero genre), but pretty much every RP guild I've been in for an extended period of time in either of those games have had strict core themes, no-nonsense rules and expectations, and/or some sort of screening process (such as applications or interviews).

At face value, it is elitist-- but there's a difference between this and what's connotative as elitism. Remember that when you're putting together a guild of any kind, you're looking for people who share your interests and values. If someone doesn't share in this, they aren't going to mesh well with you or the rest of your community. And in the case of an RP group, even a well-presented character might just not work in context you might be going for in a guild (a berserker in a group of white mages, anyone?). 

You'll get people who think poorly on this in any community, but there's just as many that see "strict" guilds as something worth looking into because they're so discerning.

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Bryn - 06-04-2014

Hey, White.

I want to begin by saying that I empathise completely with everything you've written here. I lead the kind of "very small, exclusive, strict FC with a hardcore "no BS" policy." you mention.

Tiergan Vashir(a dear and long-time friend) and I founded our current FC with exactly the same goals and concerns as you've mentioned. Between the two of us, we have almost 15 years worth of experience in leading roleplaying groups in various MMOs. We've been in just about every kind of RP group in terms of attitude and quality, from the very large laissez-faire groups who'll take just about anyone, to the (unfortunately rarer) smaller groups which are more discerning in their recruitment.

What Tiergan and I found was that we enjoyed RP much more in the groups which were more selective in their recruitment process. But we found that there just weren't enough of these, and their recruitment policies were rarely enforced with any kind of strictness. So we got together and asked ourselves, "What would be the perfect roleplay guild for us?" Then we built an FC from our answers to that question.

We are demanding in our recruitment standards. We look not only for the basic skills such as good spelling, grammar and punctuation, but also for well-rounded characters and a positive attitude. We do not necessarily recruit on the basis of the applicant's roleplay experience; we accepted a wonderful new member who was brand new to MMO RP, and he's become a much-loved and valued member of the group.

But I don't kid myself that our standards aren't what some would consider 'elitist'.

And we make no apologies for that. Tiergan and I have been RPing for years. We've seen all of the tropes, stories and character types that would likely make more experienced RPers cringe. But we're both in our mid-(coughlatecough)twenties now, and we want roleplay and story-telling of a higher quality. We accepted at the birth of the FC that we would eventually run into accusations of elitism or snobbery, possibly also your mentioned concern of rejected applicants and members holding a grudge against us. This is all fine.

We have developed the following views and guidelines to help us along. Perhaps they'll help you, too.
  • You can't please everyone. Some people will get upset no matter what you do. It's best to just accept it.
  • You have a right to enjoy your own FC. If your enjoyment of your FC depends on having a higher quality of RP, then you need to put policies in place to ensure that.
  • You do not have to compromise on your standards for anyone. This one sometimes needs to be repeated, somewhat like a mantra.
  • Demanding certain qualities and skills of your members is not a crime. Balmung is a big server with plenty of RP groups open to people. If someone isn't a good fit for your group, they'll find a home elsewhere. It’s okay to say no to people.
  • Diffusing responsibility for the membership is a good way to lend legitimacy to decisions; while Tiergan and I decide whether to accept applicants based on our standards, whether or not those members pass their trial period is down to our established members. Everyone in the FC who has passed their trial period gets a vote on whether new members stay or not. Democratizing the process gives people a sense of ownership over the FC, and absolves you of any possible accusations that you maintain an unfair, tyrannical stranglehold over who gets in.

In short, I agree with what Austratus has added to the discussion above. I’ll also add that your main consideration should be what kind of guild you’d be happy to lead. You have a right to play this game and RP in a way that pleases you, and no-one has a right to tell you otherwise. You may eventually rub people the wrong way by doing this, but that doesn't mean that you’re in the wrong.


Basically:


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RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Adrian - 06-04-2014

I'll first start by agreeing with Austratus and more firmly with Bryn. See, Bryn had a wonderful point in that it's ultimately your FC. You should want to log on and see your friends and want to play with them. That's the ultimate goal of a game. How you achieve your end to have that fun is dictated by each person who plays it. So, naturally, you won't view fun the same as some other people. And yes, your acceptance of fun can be strict and limiting so that you can ensure what you do is worth your time and what you want to do constructively.

That might be called elitism. Yet, I've encountered two types of elitism. There's passive and active forms of elitism. Neither are particularly good, neither are particularly bad in my experience. My good friend and the founder of my free company, Renaud Becquerel, did a good job of defining passive and active forms of elitism. You can read it all here but honestly I'll cut to the quick. What you seem to be afraid of is coming across as an active elitist. I'm conjecturing here so please do correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to not want to be the group to spread aggressive gossip about a bad experience and gain a negative reputation for spreading hate on people. I understand that. I agree with the philosophy that all RP is legitimate - I just don't have to participate if I don't want to.

That brings us to passive elitism: Which is when you see something someone is doing and you think, "hey that thing isn't for me" and don't act on it. You pass judgment that maybe this bit of lore-bending or that bit of ERPing doesn't suit your fancy and you'd rather not partake. Doesn't really sound awful, but it can get strict and you might not RP with a whole group of people because you think they just aren't up to your standards. It's still elitism but the key difference is that you aren't making actions to force your views on them or anyone else.

I'll come out and kind of say that the Coral Sea is somewhat a passive elitist FC. We have a rule that gives us full rights to decline or kick anyone we want to. For what reason? For the reason that it's our FC. If you make us uncomfortable or by any means not want you, then we shouldn't have to permit presence. You're in our house and you may be our friend, but friends still act cordial. We want to have fun and not feel forced to interact with our own members. I don't see why any other FC should be the same. Or any guild in any game, actually.

It's not your job to make a place for people to gather. I don't want a second job on a virtual game I play to get away from my real one. I just want to have fun with my friends and I don't see a problem with others trying to achieve the same. No matter how they go about it (so long, of course, they don't force it on me). So. To sum up my rant in response to your rant. Do what you want. If you join another MMO and don't want to lead? That's cool. If you decide to take it on again? Sweet. Another challenge to overcome. Whichever way, I hope you enjoy your time online.

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - White - 06-04-2014

Thank you all for responding! All very good points and I value your input and will definitely take it all into consideration. You said it all very well, Dhemgeim. I don't want anything I do to be seen as "active" elitism. I may want to regulate what people do in my own FC, but I certainly don't care what people do outside of it! Even when it comes to "passive" elitism, even if someone's RP is not my cup of tea I'll RP with anyone who is not OOCly rude, even if their grammar or lore-bending makes me a cringe a little. However, when it comes to my own FC, I don't want to have to cringe when RPing with my own company members!

I suppose most of my FC's problems in XIV stemmed from one of our former members breaking our single simple rule of respecting others (we had a contest for our FC housing fund where the top three donators got to help us decorate the house, she was fine with it until she realized she was coming in fourth place, started flipping out in FC chat, screaming and cursing at everyone) and after 15 minutes of trying to calm her down and reason with her to no avail, we told her she would have to stop or leave. Then all the screaming was about how we were "dictators" by telling her "my way or the highway" by insisting the had to follow the simple rules of not freaking out and spewing profanities at people all over FC chat.

She showed herself to the door and took her friends with her, but sadly that wasn't the end of things. They made their own FC seemingly dedicated to hating ours, began poaching our members, posting slanderous things about us on their FC website and personal profiles, and spread rumors and downright lies about our FC. This all happened around launch, but still to this day their FC continues to spread lies about ours and try to convince any of members of my FC who will listen that they should leave our FC because we're "dictators" and join their FC instead.

With all of this total nonsense stemming from enforcing the most /basic/ of rules on one unreasonable person... I'm kinda hesitant to face what might happen if we actually had STRICT rules and requirements. xD But perhaps the problem is the solution to itself. Having an FC that's plainly strict to begin with may deter people from thinking they have free reign of the company or that they are entitled to act however poorly they please.

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - FreelanceWizard - 06-04-2014

Crazy people will be crazy. Undoubtedly, there's probably a couple of people who were in Mysterium or who were turned down at the application level who feel that we (I?) are dictatorial elitists who try to control everyone's RP because we hew to fairly strict rules on consent in RP (in our charter), try to ascertain if a character is likely to "drama bomb" IC chat on a regular basis, and generally don't have large, long-running, FC-wide plots. Conversely, I know there's at least one previous member who thinks we're lazy and inept because we try to avoid "drama bomb" characters and don't give people large, long-running, FC-wide plots with which their characters can get involved. Smile

The message is that you should run the group you want to run and let it grow from there. Undoubtedly, you'll find people whose concepts and stance on RP mesh with your own, and your group will grow organically from there.

Having strict rules actually works out as a blessing in my experience, though. It sets clear expectations and lets you point to specific rules that everyone agreed to should someone start breaking them. Yes, it does deter people to some degree, but in many cases, those are probably the people you didn't want to apply in the first place.

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Maril - 06-04-2014

I come from a similar background as you, I've lead multiple guilds - usually not by my own initiative, but because I was there when the original team left, and with XIV I felt that even though I didn't want to, I sort of had to take the position. Else, the project would have failed and I'd be in a situation that scares me just a little bit, which is to find another guild. I think a lot of people who have lead guild can relate to the thought of how do you not do that, when it's not your job anymore. I've always been a rather proactive roleplayer and talkative person in general, which has lead to officer positions prior to actually taking on guild-leadership. 

I have noticed the generous amount of roleplayers that are.. I'm going to say not like me, but I'm sure you know what I mean. From people who emote in past tense, to people who have very liberal views on what roleplay is.. I don't think there's more of them here than in most other games, but I think they're a bit more visible here because there's a rather relaxed atmosphere and a lot of guilds who take in these kind of people without commenting on why they're playing a miqote with wings (<-- Example). Good for them when they join such guilds, not good when they try to get into more heavy-end guild. And they're going to get in, we've had a fair few that have failed our trial period because they simply didn't take things as serious as we do, where we didn't see any signs of this in our recruitment process. 

And as much as leading a guild is lovely, I am so tired of it, for many of the reasons you mention. I lead a guild that is rather strict with it's rules, and it's guidelines on how things should be. We only embrace one way of dealing with combat RP (Freeform Emote-style), for example - and to make that go through we beat it into people how things are to be done, so there will be no "YOU'RE OP" - "Your mom's OP!!" - Drama, and so on. People who don't cut it on the quality and who do not desire to learn, gets cut loose - we have this on every area, not just combat. We require people to emote in present tense, we tell them not to emote their thoughts, not because it's wrong - we know it's a different style, but that in itself is the point - it's not how we do it, and when you're a part of the we then you do it our way. 
We also have a strict no drama policy, if people bring personal conflicts into the guild and they do not react to warnings immediately, they'll be cut loose. Fortunately so far we haven't had the need to cut loose both sides of a conflict like that, but if that was what it took to get peace back in the guild, we would do it. I stopped being afraid of being called elitist and other such negative words a long time ago, I'd much rather hear that than be called a lolrp'er. 
But even with all of that in place, we still have things that just aren't up to scratch - Like issues with getting everyone to read the rules/information-thread in the first place, getting them to embrace the website as a part of their life they can't miss out on, problems with the pro activity of people - too much receiving, not enough giving. Even some occasional problems with the interpretation of lore. I do not have enough hours in the day to work on the problems, and my officers do not have either. It's draining my willpower, it has caused (and continues to cause) burnouts in RP and so on. 

And because of that, I've decided that XIV is the last game I will lead an anything in, for a good while. I need a couple of years to forget the downsides, and to have considerably more fun whilst RP'ing. Sastra's a great character to play, but I have more fun on my alts because they will never ever be trapped in leadership matters, and they can go and do whatever they decide to do. 
Hopefully we'll be able to pick someone up from our community who can take the burden from me in future games (Like Archeage), and the idea that someone wouldn't saddens me because it would likely mean the death of the community - but it's still not enough to motivate me to try again. 
I of course hope that our XIV guild will carry on for a long time to come, with whatever it carries with it. 

I'm sure some of the others said good stuff and I probably repeated some of it, but now you have a perspective of someone who's decided to get out of it. Eventually[sup]TM[/sup].

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Eva - 06-04-2014

Kudos for this thread. I cannot add much more than others have already expressed (major kudos to Bryn for allowing me to keep this response briefer than it otherwise would have been, since my background is similar and my views nearly identical to his post above).

Our own company has endured some growing pains early on when I didn't want to be the "bad guy" and tried to be a sort of glue holding two groups with opposing ideals together. It was rough, and the efforts in the end were somewhat wasted. I may have forfeit some friendships (though I hope not!) but it did boil down to certain standards in RP and what was fun for our members. Now that all that smoke has cleared and we have a good group of officers at the helm of the company and a solid group of members, I think my enjoyment of RP in this game has skyrocketed to new heights. I don't mind the 'RP elitist' label. It's not wrong, but the connotation given with it usually is unnecessarily negative, possibly due to misunderstanding. We are people who have certain standards, ideals, and preferences. Like some of the other companies mentioned above, we are discerning in our selection process and after umpteen years of doing this it's become much easier to identify potentially problematic prospective personnel (yay for alliteration).

Incidentally, being RPers with certain standards makes it tough sometimes with fitting in with the greater RP community. (what does one say to that winged catgirl who pours her entire life story out to you before you've finished your first pint of ale?) The fault of that isolation likely rests more on our shoulders. If anyone on Balmung would be interested in any sort of cross-company RP, we're certainly open and available.

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Zhavi - 06-04-2014

If you want to be everything to everybody, then you have to accept that means conflict is inevitable.

IMO it's much easier to build a guild with a specific focus. That doesn't mean you have to have a hardcore no BS policy, it just means that when someone crosses the line you have to be firm and stick to your guns. Keep an eye out for problem members and either talk to them early on or get rid of them -- the longer you let them fester, the worse the inevitable breaking point will be (and in the meantime, your good members will feel the strain, too).

Also, when you have people walking the line, get rid of them. The result tends to be that everyone in your guild is happier, you're happy, etc. People who walk the line usually do so deliberately, and nothing you say will get through.

Ask people who show initiative to be your officers. Never promote anyone who asks for a leadership position. If they want it, they'll show you by putting the effort in. Don't be afraid to rely on these people. Sometimes it's easy to be perfectionist, and then you find yourself doing all the work and wondering why no one is helping -- don't forget to share the workload. Sometimes people need tasks given to them, as they don't know what to do themselves.

In my experience, you're going to put in way more effort then your members. The first time I was an officer in a serious raiding guild, I commented that I didn't realize how much it was like a second job -- much to the amusement of the guild leader and other officer. It is a lot of work. Be sure to give yourself some self-time at least once a week. Once you start dreading logging in, it's time to take a break.

But above all else, build the sort of community and guild that you want to be in.


(also, as Bryn said, don't compromise your standards. I'm on what some consider to be a very high-standards rp forum. We get maybe 1-2 new members per year, out of scores who apply. Most just get bored of the app process, or if they make it through, don't have enough initiative to cut it. But for those one or two new members who stick, they stick for years (forum itself is turning ten next year). Drama? We don't have drama. Would I rather have hundreds of members over the twenty-something who stick? Nope. I wouldn't have it any other way. Is it for everyone? Nope. That's okay -- there are other places I wouldn't join that are someone's cup of tea, and that's awesome. In my mind, not everything is for everyone, and that's great -- because it means I can find places that cater to my own specific set of interests pretty easily Big Grin)

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - FreelanceWizard - 06-04-2014

(06-04-2014, 03:57 PM)Zhavi Wrote: Ask people who show initiative to be your officers. Never promote anyone who asks for a leadership position. If they want it, they'll show you by putting the effort in.

This is an important point. When I've run guilds in the past, I quickly discovered that the best officers are the ones who are available, friendly, and considerate, and who put in the effort to make RP fun for everyone (not just themselves; there are sadly some who put in a lot of effort, but only to enrich their own story at the cost of others'). These players never ask for leadership authority and are often surprised when you offer it.

IMO, officer positions are best held by those who want them least. This is also why I always recommend against "open calls" for officers; that's asking for the willing, not necessarily the able, and the people who make the best officers usually would prefer not to deal with OOC and instead help build good RP.

YMMV, of course. Smile

As for the dreading to log in... yeah. That's very true. That's why I'm just the housing manager for Mysterium now -- I didn't have the time or emotional energy to run an FC of our size when I resigned. The good thing about having great officers, though, is that there'll be one who can step in if you need to take a break.

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Austratus - 06-04-2014

Thank you for all the long-winded people who expanded on this, especially the passive/active elitism split (which I was kinda trying to go for in my first post).

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - Gar - 06-05-2014

I might not be adding anything new to the conversation, but I wanted to throw my thoughts in as well.

I started XI:7 during the Beta of 2.0, and since then its been a giant dramatic mess after another. I completely understand your worry of what the people will do once they've left your group. Back in the day, I started the group without really knowing anyone previously. So I went out and tried to gather who I could and to help form the community at large. In the following months I learned the hard way all the lessons we're reading about here. It became exhausting how many people hated me because I had to remove them from the group for the good of the whole. I've had everything from juvenile sex slaves that made everyone uncomfortable to people who refused to voice their concerns with me or officers, but instead sabotaged the group from the inside.

Its tiring. Its frustrating. Its enough to make you want to quit. But I'm so glad I never did.

Today I have a group of very good and helpful people. I downsized to the people who wanted to be part of the group, and weren't those who sat around waiting for the group to serve them. Things have never been better. There was a general tension from before that's all but gone now. Its fun.

No one is entitled to a community. It is a group of people with a common idea of acceptable behavior. There are consequences to every decision. If people choose to be hateful and aggressive, its only natural that they'll find themselves playing solo.

You can't judge a group's success by their size. Most people who hold fond memories of groups are the smaller groups that they played an actual part in. Bigger groups can be successful, of course, but its harder for everyone to really have a place.

So if leadership is stressing you out, it probably means you're the right one to do it. This community needs good leaders who are willing to take all the negativity onto themselves. If you call it for a while, no one's going to blame you. But as a fellow leader who's just trying to do the best he can for those in his care, I'm proud of the efforts you've made.

There will always people out to get you, but just remember there are like-minded people out there, too. Keep your group how you want it, then come hang out with the other smaller groups like us!

Anyways. I rant, and I apologize. This is a topic I'm very passionate about. Best of luck with your group. FFXIV, like all communities, has its problems, but its my favorite game in the world and I want to make it successful.

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - FreelanceWizard - 06-05-2014

*puts on admin hat*

I've just had to mod a post on this thread and warn the author for it (though I think it may have been a sockpuppet, but so be it). This isn't a thread to air dirty laundry or pick fights.

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - james snickerson - 06-05-2014

What? Well i really agree with what you said. I run a small fc in atamos and i keep it tight and nice. Too many people with too many problems, why not just pick a few exceptional conversationalists.

RE: An FC Leader's Question--Quality or Snobbery? - synaesthetic - 06-07-2014

I've had the exact opposite experience, actually, though this may be because Unity is not a roleplaying FC but a PvE one.

The drama my company has experienced has been minor, minimal in the extreme especially compared to the big egos and small minds I had to herd in WoW...