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+--- Thread: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. (/showthread.php?tid=8559)
Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Warren Castille - 10-08-2014
As many of the folks who have had to listen to me complain about it can attest, I've got some umbrage with the notion that lalafells are, pound for pound, as strong as the larger, heavier races. While I've had it pointed out to me that the "lore" says they are, I'm not really sure what lore that is. The only lalas I can think of in a martial role story-wise are the pugilist storyline ones, but it's abundantly clear that they are learning and not some sort of whirling dervish of power.
I went back and watched the ARR trailer and did my best to scan the fight at Carteneau. Aside from Derplander's WHM and BLM companions, there isn't (to my knowledge) a single instance of a lala being in combat there. I know there are Brass Blades and Yellow Jackets that are of our diminutive friends' lineage but as I've said in my (many) debates about this, wielding a weapon doesn't preclude strength. In a world of magical weapons and, well, magic, a sharp enough blade doesn't care about the strength wielding it.
Anyone who's ever accidentally sliced clean through their thumbnail with a kitchen knife or dropped an x-acto blade onto their leg while working on models can attest that a keen enough edge doesn't care about the materials it cuts through.
...anyway, this is what I'm wondering. What are some certifiable, actually-sourced lore bits that say that lalafells are as strong as a Roe? I'm not asking for aether theories or Hydaelyn bits, and I also don't care about game-mechanics ("A lala war has the same strength as a highlander one!") for obvious balance reasons. I just want to know how the average lala is able to bench press as much as a <literally any other race here> and throw a punch able to knock down anyone who isn't also a lalafell.
tl;dr: lala ant strength source plz
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Coatleque - 10-08-2014
I'm curious now as well.
Even if they were strong that still does not answer the question of mass. The strength of a punch is also affected by the weight behind said punch, and a Roe being punched by a Lalafell should still be able to resist any knockback (Aetheric abilities aside).
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Adventurer - 10-08-2014
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4evYBUCmPTw&list=PL3P_LY_lUAcFsipGjnID49NAfBHvuqczg&index=2
This is the best piece I believe. It's from 1.0. Skip to around the 9 minutes 50 second mark.
There's little effort shown by the two Lalas while the Hyurs they are dragging are struggling quite a lot.Â
And then the throw right at the end is glorious.
Granted, this doesn't explain HOW at all. But it shows that the strength is there. Mind you, there is also no explanation as to how jellyfish and pugils float in the air outside of water, either. >_>'
I think it's one of those cases where it's the whole realism vs fantasy thing. This part we just have to put to the fantasy side of the setting. At least, that's how I go about it!
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Warren Castille - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 08:58 AM)Adventurer Wrote: This is the best piece I believe. It's from 1.0. Skip to around the 9 minutes 50 second mark.
There's little effort shown by the two Lalas while the Hyurs they are dragging are struggling quite a lot.Â
And then the throw right at the end is glorious.
As soon as I saw the video I knew it was going to be the miners. Those two are explicitly talked about as being badasses in 1.0, to the point where NOBODY messes around with them. I'd be willing to call that the exception to the rule? I don't want to be a jerk and play the "Doesn't count, was 1.0" card, but it does come to mind. I'm hoping for something substantial from 2.0.
Also, that music takes me way back. I miss it.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Adventurer - 10-08-2014
Well, there's also Papashan who commands a unit of Sultansworn from 2.0 and makes a stand against the Highlander bandit in the Ul'dah storyline while you and his men deal with the other bandits?
As to the 1.0 bit, I don't understand the "1.0 doesn't count" card at all since it's the same world/races/lore, just 5 years on. Also I think saying they're an exception is a little off as, really, there weren't too many Lalafell NPCs prominent in the story.Â
But if you're after just 2.0 info, then I'd say Papashan is your best bet to look at. And he's an elderly Lalafell, too.
I think it's a tricky topic as it brings up the whole realism/fantasy thing that has been brought up a lot on these forums. But from everything I've seen, there are things to say that the Lalafell are just as strong as the bigger races (two examples above), while there aren't any examples to say that they are weaker, I guess?
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Enteris - 10-08-2014
There is the "example" if you can call it that of the two sparring in the pugilist's guild. A lalafell vs. a midlander iirc (at work atm so not sure off top of my head what it is).
Of course, something along the lines of "How is this even fair?" Is mentioned by one of the NPCs present.
That and the lala that follows you around in the pugilists quests (name escapes me atm).
Beyond that, I can't think of too many examples myself.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Warren Castille - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 09:07 AM)Adventurer Wrote: Well, there's also Papashan who commands a unit of Sultansworn from 2.0 and makes a stand against the Highlander bandit in the Ul'dah storyline while you and his men deal with the other bandits?
As to the 1.0 bit, I don't understand the "1.0 doesn't count" card at all since it's the same world/races/lore, just 5 years on. Also I think saying they're an exception is a little off as, really, there weren't too many Lalafell NPCs prominent in the story.Â
But if you're after just 2.0 info, then I'd say Papashan is your best bet to look at. And he's an elderly Lalafell, too.
I think it's a tricky topic as it brings up the whole realism/fantasy thing that has been brought up a lot on these forums. But from everything I've seen, there are things to say that the Lalafell are just as strong as the bigger races (two examples above), while there aren't any examples to say that they are weaker, I guess?
Papashan's an interesting one, but I'm referring specifically to physical strength! He wields a sword and shield and wears armor; These are things that can be explained away as magically reinforced or blessedly sharp or what have you. He's also got years and years of swordsman training under his belt, so it makes sense for someone to be afraid of facing off with the leader of the Sworn.
You prove my point, sort of: There aren't many prominent lalas in the story, and barring those two miners (who seem to be gone, RIP) the ones that DO exist are all scholarly based, not martial.
I agree it isn't fair to say 1.0 doesn't count, but a single instance (or pair, since it's two characters) from four years ago doesn't really set the bar when there are no other prominent lala bruisers.
Again, I don't want to consider fighting with an axe/sword/lance the same as punching someone and knocking them down. I understand a difference between fantasy allowances and reality in my fantasy games, but we're talking real-world physics and stuff. Something weighing 60 pounds shouldn't be able to throw a punch to stagger a 500-pound wall of muscle.
Unless we're conceded lalafells being so dense that they weigh as much as a chocobo, but again... That doesn't make sense because their chocobos are smaller.
I don't know. I just want to know why I should entertain the notion of a lala punch hurting.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Unnamed Mercenary - 10-08-2014
In Papashan's case though, they never show raw, physical strength. They show Papashan is skilled and well-trained in combat.Â
The two miner Lalafell from 1.0 have been written as being the exceptions to the rule though, as their character bios specifically state that they were able to throw a full-grown Hyur.Â
But let's say a Roegadyn and a Lalafell had an arm-wrestling fight? I would find it hard to believe the Lalafell would 1)remain in their (because English provides us no gender-neutral term) seat, 2)not have a crunched arm due to the amount of physical stress that would wreak upon their smaller frames.Â
As Warren stated, he's not really looking for something that proves a Lalafell is just as good at combat as any other race. (We know game balance and skill/training would account for that). Now if we take into account some of the other Lalafell we see, many of them are either mages or crafters.Â
We know Lalafell are gifted with extremely good aether manipulation (except Cocobusi), and many are Thaumaturges. At least as far as the Coco-bros go, physical combat terrified them. Especially against anything larger than they were.Â
If we turn to look at some other prominent NPCs, we've got the PGL NPC, but that's skill > power, and we've got Momodi, who shows no combat, and then we've got Tataru, who mines (tools), and the BTN leader, Fufucha (more tools). Â
There simply isn't enough evidence to really prove either way.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Warren Castille - 10-08-2014
I'll fall for the fallacy here:
If lalafell WERE as able-bodied as other races, we'd have more examples of it.
I know, I know. That doesn't count either.
At least FFXI was upfront about saying "no, these guys are mages. Stop it."
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Maril - 10-08-2014
I do not know if/where there is lore backing either theory, but I am thinking that if people were to go out and assume that your average lalafell is as strong as your average roegadyn, then essentially that means there would be no difference between any of the races - a midlander would be as strong as a highlander, etc. Which kind of screws over a few things, such as the main physical differences between highlanders and midlanders (Being taller and more bulky) - if they were at the same basic strength then why would there be this obvious physical difference? Highlanders are used to living in a terrain that involves more mountains and such, meaning that you generally have to be stronger to survive, where as midlanders are used to the lowlands, where strength does not matter as much as say, the endurance to walk great distances. So by saying that as a standard lalafells are as strong as another race, you could potentially cancel out some of the effects of the other race, and what sets them apart from the rest. And even if there is lore backing up the notion that they are as strong as everyone else, I'd say it should be food for thought.Â
And when one looks at the lore, especially quest lore, I think it's important to understand that not all of it is suitable for making broad assumptions on. Some NPC's in quests are portrayed to be better than the average, ie I wouldn't expect any NPC from the main story quest to be your average joe, they'd surely have had to do something to earn them a spot next to a bigshot.Â
So even if you can find one or two lalafells that are portrayed to be very strong, it doesn't always mean that -all- of them are, rather what it suggests is that a lalafell can train themselves to be as strong as your average roegadyn, though I would imagine that they would have to pour most of their day at training. And in that alleyway, you could probably have a hyur that is so unfit that a lalafell could easily seem superior in strength.Â
At the end of the day, when you choose a race I think you should stay true to it's quirks instead of cancelling out those that would make a fight "unfair" if they were matched with something that has a lot of what they themselves do not have.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Kage - 10-08-2014
A keen edge however, can only take you so far.
If we're not going with the fact that Lalafell must be able to hold their own physically to continuously keep up with their Hyur and Roegadyn counterparts in the Yellowjackets, the Blades, the Sultansworn... then it means that a -lot- of Lalafell are just able to fight at better standards. Their skill level in terms of combat knowhow and such would have to be, in average, at higher level than their larger counterparts.
We're applying the laws of physics, reasonably so, to a world in which we don't know what the laws are.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Warren Castille - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 09:45 AM)Kage Wrote: A keen edge however, can only take you so far.
If we're not going with the fact that Lalafell must be able to hold their own physically to continuously keep up with their Hyur and Roegadyn counterparts in the Yellowjackets, the Blades, the Sultansworn... then it means that a -lot- of Lalafell are just able to fight at better standards. Their skill level in terms of combat knowhow and such would have to be, in average, at higher level than their larger counterparts.
We're applying the laws of physics, reasonably so, to a world in which we don't know what the laws are.
I don't know. It's possible part of the "edge" lalafell have is that majority of someone else's opponents are going to just be larger than what you're used to. If you're an archer and you're used to hitting people two yalms tall and suddenly you've got a quarter of that target size? It's going to come into play. Similarly, if you keep your shield at chest height - the place most opponents are going to be swinging - you're at a serious disadvantage when your foe is swinging for knees and belts. Without crouching - an awkward position to fight in, to say the least - you're not on a level stance against someone completely comfortable.
I don't think it's better standards, I think it's different standards. Put the fastest qwerty typist in the world on a dvorak keyboard and watch them struggle to outpace someone who's only been typing on dvorak for a month.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Adventurer - 10-08-2014
Honestly I see both sides and it's something I'm unsure of. I'm just going from what we're told and shown rather than making assumptions.
I mean, the racial descriptions are a little confusing if you look at them all, too.Â
We're told it is Hellsguard who have mastered the magical arts. Yet the only Roegadyn spell-caster I'm aware of is the ACN guildmaster and the Roegadyn male that helps you through the arcanist questlines (who are both Sea Wolf >_>).
Miqo'te have a great sense of smell (like a bloodhound) rather than advanced hearing.Â
And all we're told of Lalafell is that they're very agile and some hold a cunning sense of intellect (which leads to the Ul'dah politics, I imagine!) They're not described as being spell-casters at all.
I don't know. We're told one thing, basic logic says for us to think another, and then we're shown a completely separate third thing.Â
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Kage - 10-08-2014
But lalafell are just as numerous in number with fighters as there are Roegadyn, Hyur, etc (Almost every single security team has them, I say every because I'm sure there's some example of none). They aren't rare breeds like... well one would say "oh we have someone with dwarfism for you to fight today! special!" It's a common day occurrence with the population numbers. My expectation is that people of Eorzea (perhaps not so Garlemald ;p ) have grown up having to had to spar with and fight with lalafell.
RE: Lalafell, strength and you! Light up the Sounsyy Signal. - Warren Castille - 10-08-2014
(10-08-2014, 09:55 AM)Kage Wrote: But lalafell are just as numerous in number with fighters as there are Roegadyn, Hyur, etc (Almost every single security team has them, I say every because I'm sure there's some example of none). They aren't rare breeds like... well one would say "oh we have someone with dwarfism for you to fight today! special!" It's a common day occurrence with the population numbers. My expectation is that people of Eorzea (perhaps not so Garlemald ;p ) have grown up having to had to spar with and fight with lalafell.
I'll say again: Only lalafells in the ARR trailers are casters. That's as definitive of a fighting force as we get.
And those lalafells fighters ARE all armed. Hell, everyone's armed in this game. I don't remember seeing many lala npcs with baghnakhs, though. I wanted to go patrol and see some of the like, Corpse Brigade camps and the Drowned/Tempered guys. I remember casters, I remember sword/shield (I think?) but I only recall hyur/roe punching.