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Akarios · **01-25-2017, 08:21 PM**

Hello everybody! Hope all is fine!

I wanted to ask, if anyone could help me with a doubt. I've been trying to look into the situation of the Hyur's in Ishgard, and TBH i'm getting mixed informations or none at all.

If anyone could help me pointing where should i look for this, because i wanted to know the situation of Hyur's before and after the event's of heavensward.

I'm not enteirely sure if here is where i should be posting, so if it isn't. I apologize in advance!

Thank you!

**Unnamed Mercenary** · **01-25-2017, 08:41 PM**

Hyur are a minority in Ishgard.

As per the lore book, it's about 70% Ishgardian Elezen (this was likely before the Wildwood/Duskwight split), 20% Midlander Hyur and 10% other.

Due to the overwhelming Elezen population (and because they're also the 4 high houses), Hyur and other races are more likely than not going to be rich Ishgardians. There are probably a handful of them, but if I were to make guesses, most likely occupy a middle-class merchant/trader role or are poor and living in the Brume.

You also also find a bunch of Ishgardian lore Here

Akarios · **01-25-2017, 09:39 PM**

(01-25-2017, 08:41 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: Hyur are a minority in Ishgard.

As per the lore book, it's about 70% Ishgardian Elezen (this was likely before the Wildwood/Duskwight split), 20% Midlander Hyur and 10% other.

Due to the overwhelming Elezen population (and because they're also the 4 high houses), Hyur and other races are more likely than not going to be rich Ishgardians. There are probably a handful of them, but if I were to make guesses, most likely occupy a middle-class merchant/trader role or are poor and living in the Brume.

You also also find a bunch of Ishgardian lore Â Here

Thank you very much! That kinda document as precisely what i was looking for!
And as you said, i knew that the Hyur's where a minority, but i'm still curious of how they are treated, if there is some kind of prejudice or anything like that. Thanks again for your reply!

Valence · **01-26-2017, 04:43 AM**

There isn't really any racism in Ishgard but there is classism: you will always be discriminated based on your rank in society, and that also works for a noble guy trying to deal with poor people from the Brume.

V'aleera · **01-26-2017, 05:36 AM**

(01-26-2017, 04:43 AM)Valence Wrote: There isn't really any racism in Ishgard

Other than the standard Eorzean fare of disgust toward miscegenation.

***Teadrinker*** · **01-26-2017, 07:05 AM**

I'd think not wanting your children to be half breeds or dissuading others from mating outside their race is...well. Racist. (Though debatably Eorzean status quo.)

MSQ made me feel like Hyur's were pretty well treated as the substandard race in Ishgard among the two most populous.

Valence · **01-26-2017, 04:08 PM**

Well yeah, that goes without saying.

Zelmanov · **02-05-2017, 05:45 PM**

Ishgard, despite its social stratification is a meritocracy

War Time Ishgard generally has the edict that if you prove yourself useful in the war, you will have a station befitting your abilities.

However, that does not prevent snooty highborn from trying to actively prevent upward mobility as evidenced by the scholasticate quests or the leve quests which state that apparently brume-born dragoons in training don't last nearly as long or not expected to survive the training.

The former Azure Dragoon (before WOL or Estinien) is a midlander hyur. You see several nameless hyuran highborn looking NPCs in the pillars (most notably in front of Fortemps house).

Any inherent racism born of the great hyuran-elezen wars seems to have taken a backseat to fighting dragons.

Seriphyn · **02-07-2017, 12:31 PM**

(02-05-2017, 05:45 PM)Zelmanov Wrote: Ishgard, despite its social stratification is a meritocracy.

As you pointed out it's not that black and white. Every society has meritocratic aspects regardless of its dominant public constitution. Any military is going to be, for example. But being unable to become a noble from a lowborn means Ishgard cannot wholesale be a meritocracy.

Zelmanov · **02-07-2017, 01:15 PM**

Actually, it is possible for ascension into nobility via dragon slaying and merit.

Aymeric is the most obvious example, because for all intents and purposes he was treated as a bastard.

Likewise, Lucia, an outsider(and garlean) is treated with as much respect as a highborn.

The whole existence of the convictory in western highlands is there solely for the idea of a bunch of misfits brumelings and 5th-6th born highborn to carve out a path of status and glory via finding and murdering a properly sized dragon.

Aside from marriage to secure a higher spot, there are two ways to ascend the ladder

Military or religion, which closely mimics old timey medieval europe

Valence · **02-07-2017, 06:16 PM**

I think you are talking convenient examples and turning them into a generality. The very state of Ishgard society seems to tell a whole other story to me. The simple fact that the people in power are generally either 1) Clergy, and then 2) Nobles/aristocracy, is by essence contradictory with the principles of meritocracies.

As said above, every society can bring up a few meritocratic aspects, especially in the military. I could even agree to say that the Order of Knights Dragoons can be considered a true meritocracy, as opposed to all other ishgardian Knigthoods.

The whole existence of the convictory is not ideals, but political agenda. It brings purpose and hope to the masses and commoners, and at the same time promotes a martial culture of grandeur and glory where the rabble and the penniless can do the dirty fight the knights and nobles won't do themselves. It's a win win situation for both social spheres.

Ultimately, very few lowborns climb up the ranks by simply becoming a dragoon. Most stay in their misery or just common state, while a minority desperate enough will take arms and probably die in the cold outside.

Even the Scholasticate of St Endalim, which could have been seen as some sort of academic meritocracy (through studies and learning), was actually proven to be something else entirely in the last part of its related quests.

And I really doubt that your analogy, medieval Europe, is anything but close to meritocratic systems. Be it feudalism, royalty, or even merchant republics (those are more akin to Ul'dah).

Last not on bastard children, IRL, were actually proven to be very often very well doted and considered. Some were legitimate heirs, and some got prestigious careers in various affairs (clergy, military, etc). And some yes, were cast out or shunned, but that's a minority really. All in all, Aymeric fills pretty well the role of an average bastard from a king.

Zelmanov · **02-24-2017, 02:43 AM**

You see though the fact that the clergy and nobility hold the power confirms my saying. Because anyone with any power /become/ those positions. Minor houses exist, this is confirmed, they have had to come into being somehow, and what we know about Ishgard is that killing a legit dragon gets you status and prestige, hell there's even an early coerthan throwaway line that you don't get a proper grave unless you die via dragon, that's some spartan stuff right there (return with your shield or on it). Basically, any brumeborn that does anything of merit is promoted to either clergy or nobility in some form in order to keep the castes aligned. (Can't let any riffraff kill a dragon, so in order to rectify it, you are no longer riffraff, you are now a knight or a dragoon with a lower case d).

You misinterpret my meaning about meritocracy in Medieval Europe. In England and France more specifically, if you wanted to climb AT ALL you had two options if you wanted it to be in your control (because not everyone can be born hot and catch the eye of a lord), either you fought well or your dedicated your life to the church. Fighting well enough could possibly get you knighted, getting knighted could get you land, manage that well and you could move into pseudo nobility, perhaps even get married into an existing family. Granted you started as front line infantry.
The church, on the other hand, was the primary means for education. Great strides in science were born from the church first because that is where the smart people went. Gregor Mendel was a monk, the very way we organize the animal kingdom was born from the want to categorize and understand god's plan. Not only that, but churches took care of their own, a poor pauper with proper brains could live comfortably in the abbots. So it is an avenue for the less militarily inclined.

This is shown in Ishgard in both cases. The Scholasticate has dorms for its students, no matter if brumeborn or highborn and the knights are revered.

In fact, there are cases of overlap, Valeyeront and Reinette are canonized as saints though they were both Dragoons, one was an azure dragoon, the other one was just a dragoon.

Ishgard's culture is a war culture with a good deal of fascism (not the nazi sort, the classic needs of the state outweigh the needs of the individual sort) and religious fanaticism to boot. It rewards those who fight well or for those who perpetuate the narrative of righteous glory with heavy ties and parallels to pop culture representations of ye olde France and England.

Just remember that the hoops that need to be jumped through in order to ascend, especially in the military route, are monumental (literally killing a dragon) and there are systems in place to actively suppress or perhaps discourage brumeborn from ascending (as shown in scholasticate quest and in the convictory quest, not to mention guildleves that make the assumption that brumeborn dragoon recruits flunk out faster and more frequently than highborne).

thus once again the likening to medieval europe in my previous statement. It doesn't happen often, but it happens often enough, perhaps conveniently enough to keep the people in Ishgard quiet and happy with their lot in life (as happy as that is).Â

TL;DR,

Upward mobility is facilitated through church and military, goodluck being a farmer in Ishgard, especially after 5 years of winter.

ASIDE:

I am curious as to the view on merchants and traders in Ishgard, there seems to be a market district which peddles anything from armor to cooking supplies to jewelry and is located in the pillars (and maybe meant only for rich people?) Ishgard is not one to avoid decadence (to keep in line with the well off nobles) even in time of scarcity like post-calamity. They do not contribute to the war directly so I wonder how it is received.

LiadansWhisper · **02-24-2017, 03:18 AM**

(02-24-2017, 02:43 AM)Zelmanov Wrote: ASIDE:

I am curious as to the view on merchants and traders in Ishgard, there seems to be a market district which peddles anything from armor to cooking supplies to jewelry and is located in the pillars (and maybe meant only for rich people?) Ishgard is not one to avoid decadence (to keep in line with the well off nobles) even in time of scarcity like post-calamity. They do not contribute to the war directly so I wonder how it is received.

If I remember correctly, the Leatherworking questline deals with this extensively. It's implied that the merchants base their level of service (and the quality of their wares that they offer) on the social standing of the individual customer.

Hyur situation on Ishgard.

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes