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Shuck · **07-19-2013, 02:39 AM**

(07-19-2013, 12:42 AM)doctorgalactic Wrote: This is great feedback! Â I' have to be honest, I didn't click all of the links, nor watch the video as having not played 1.0 I don't want to have any spoilers. Â And monkey wrench's are fine, that's what I'm here for! Â I asked for help with development, not a soapbox to be praised for my "awesome" ideasÂ Â Â

1) Â I agree that the concept of his Father being an actualÂ Dragoon may be bit far fetched. Â I've read though that Ala Mhigo was known to have a strong Lancer's presence, along with the Monk's. Â The concept was that Kayle's father (and step-father) told him stories about the dragoons when he was little. Â I know that him being 3 when his father died may be to young to have these memories with him specifically, WIP. Â However, it could have been his father's dream to become one, or his dream that Kayle could one day become one, etc etc. Â Kayle may feel that it's an obligation to his father's memory to at least seek out information regarding the legendary Dragoons.

Just remember that there's a huge difference between guys that wield spears, and an actual, holy knight of Ishgard that is bound to, and sworn to slay dragons in the name of Halone, the Fury.Â

(07-19-2013, 12:42 AM)doctorgalactic Wrote: 5) Â We know the pilgrimage thought the Shroud wasn't a pleasant one, it's where he got the scar across his left cheek. Â As far as the Gridanian's on a whole go, are we saying specifically that all Gridanians hate Ala Mhigans based on a failed invasion that happened a hundred years ago?

It's not the people you'd have to worry about. It's the forest. The Twelveswood is a conscious, thinking thing. One hundred years isn't such a huge deal to a tree.

(07-19-2013, 12:42 AM)doctorgalactic Wrote: Â The other concept I'm toying with however is that rather than passing through the Shroud they sail from the Velodyna River along the coast and eventually landing in the Bay of Dha'Yuz. Â A great departure from the previous concept, but it's kind of one or the other. Â How did the rest of the higlander's get to Ul'Dah? Â Keep in mind that as they are travelling, the Battle of Silvertear Skies and the war at the Carteneau Flats in Mor Dhona all happen. Â Kayle's mother is under the 'never again' mentality, and urges her family to flee. Â Assuming that the Garleans came from the 'recently' occupied Ala Mhigo when they made their way west to Mor Dhona, that would put Kayle's family directly in their path, pushing them further south and both physically and emotionally further from his dream of visiting Ishgard. Â He basically resigns himself at 23 to being the proverbial man of the house.

Your timeline's a bit messed up. Silvertear Skies happened before the entirety of the events of 1.0 (during 1562). Carteneau Flats happened at the end of 1.0, a full ten years later.

Also, Silvertear was entirely between the Garleans and Midgardsormr. None of our troops were deployed to that.

By the time Silvertear was said and done, the Ala Mhigan exodus was largely done. As for the sailing route? That's likely the faster, safer way. Garlea attacked by air, and a small vessel could easily slip by the imperial air fleet. They'd also avoid getting eaten by trees.

(07-19-2013, 12:42 AM)doctorgalactic Wrote: However, we know that they DO leave Ishgard, as there are PC's running around with the job. Â Like I said, I don't know all of the 1.0 storyline, but I have to assume that if/when I login to a Legacy server for the first time there's gonna be more than a couple lvl 50 Dragoon's running around Eorzea, and if not there eventually will be. Â Which begs the question: are the PC's actually becoming trueÂ Dragoon's or some bastardized version of it? Â Granted, we all can't be the chosen one, but you simply cannot pretend that there aren't guys running around in Artifact armor... Â Please keep in mind, I'm not questioning your sources, nor your logic. Â I'm simply asking open ended questions for the sake of understanding.

Again, there's a break between what the player can access, and what the world says makes sense. If every player running about was a Dragoon, and also master of the lost art of the Warrior, and was a member of the dying Bard circles, and also able to tap the forbidden (for real) practice of White Magic to it's fullest, that would be one bizarre world.

PC's, for the most part could not possibly all be true Dragoons. They can dress like them. They can mimic them through whatever means they please. After all, it's not like you can't just commission a set of armor, and ask whatever smith that cranks it out to make it look just so.

Likewise, red patterns on a white robe doesn't mean that the Seedseers of Gridania have decided that you're good to go on hurling around a magic practice that brought a golden age to an end.

I'm not saying that there are no PC's that are really, truly Dragoons. But it's better to be cautious with these labels (because seriously, the Jobs, as they are, are usually closely guarded secrets trusted to absolutely goddamned nobody), and remember that there are concessions the game has to make in order to allow people to play it.

Short of it: Chances of being a real Dragoon are about as good as winning the lottery. Fudge it.

doctorgalactic · **07-19-2013, 03:22 AM**

(07-19-2013, 02:39 AM)Shuck Wrote: ~snip
Your timeline's a bit messed up. Silvertear Skies happened before the entirety of the events of 1.0 (during 1562). Carteneau Flats happened at the end of 1.0, a full ten years later.

Also, Silvertear was entirely between the Garleans and Midgardsormr. None of our troops were deployed to that.

By the time Silvertear was said and done, the Ala Mhigan exodus was largely done. As for the sailing route? That's likely the faster, safer way. Garlea attacked by air, and a small vessel could easily slip by the imperial air fleet. They'd also avoid getting eaten by trees.

I have to somewhat disagree or rather, clarify my statement. Â The times you pointed out are correct, but still correspond perfectly well with his story: Â Kayle was born in 1554, 3 years before The conquest of Ala Mhigo (1557), which is when they started to leave the area (whether by sail or trail). Â The Battle of Silvertear Skies happened in 1562 as you stated, making him 8 by then, definitely old enough to remember. Â Kayle's mother simply wants to avoid the Empire altogether, and if in fact the Garlean Empire moved from Ala Mhigo to Silvertear, that would put the invasion fleet flying directly over Gridania (where they potentially would have stayed for some time after the conquest) and the southern tip of Gyr Abania. Â Carteneau Flats was in 1572, as you stated, making him 18 at the time, when his stepfather went to fight. Â

I merely meant to imply that he would have experienced these events in one form or another (adjacent to the Garlean invasion fleet, and I'm assuming everyone in Eorzea knows aboutÂ Carteneau Flats). Â I think you took it that their departure to Ul'Dah was immediate and swift, and I meant to imply that they wandered for some time as they weren't certain where they were going to end up. Â But as the events unfolded around them they moved further and further south to avoid the conflict until it was literallyÂ unavoidable.

Shuck · **07-19-2013, 03:23 AM**

(07-19-2013, 03:22 AM)doctorgalactic Wrote: I merely meant to imply that he would have experienced these events in one form or another (adjacent to the Garlean invasion fleet, and I'm assuming everyone in Eorzea knows aboutÂ Carteneau Flats). Â I think you took it that their departure to Ul'Dah was immediate and swift, and I meant to imply that they wandered for some time as they weren't certain where they were going to end up. Â But as the events unfolded around them they moved further and further south to avoid the conflict until it was literallyÂ unavoidable.

Fair enough. I had misunderstood.

Uther · **07-19-2013, 05:55 AM**

I'm sure this has been said before, but I only lightly skimmed this thread. It's clear to me that you know the difference between Ala Mhigo's lancers and Ishgard's dragoons. Some clarification might be needed on top of what Shuck already said, though.

You mentioned something earlier about your character's father always wanting to be a dragoon or wanting his son to be a dragoon or some such idea. While dragoons are seen as pretty badass in Eorzea, I'm not sure if it's something outsiders would really aspire to be. I see this a lot, and it's not just you who has this idea of outsiders yearning to be dragoons.Â

Aside from what Shuck already pointed out regarding the difficulty of becoming a dragoon, I personally don't see why most people would want to.Â Being a dragoon means you serve Halone the Fury in a holy war against dragons for the defense of Ishgard. Unless you were already worshiping Halone in your spare time and had some weird connection to a place you weren't even allowed to enter, why would you want to do that? A dragoon isn't just a really good lancer who jumps around and goes on adventures, as game mechanics seem to imply. Being a dragoon goes hand-in-hand with Halone, Ishgard, and fighting dragons. Of course, you see some dragoons wandering around out in the world, but those are usually exiles who have actually fought in the holy war.Â

The idea that anyone who holds a spear or some type of polearm would live their life trying to be a dragoon is confusing to me, and I see it a lot. It's like saying "I'm a swordsman from Mongolia, but I really want to be a Templar Knight." While Templars were very well-trained and word got around about them killing people, it's unlikely that someone from a different culture would commit their lives to their holy war, country of origin, and religion just to get some sweet tricks. I hope that makes sense.

Not trying to ruin your day or anything. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents as someone who is also roleplaying a dragoon.

Nox · **07-19-2013, 09:09 AM**

(07-19-2013, 05:55 AM)Uther Wrote: I'm sure this has been said before, but I only lightly skimmed this thread. It's clear to me that you know the difference between Ala Mhigo's lancers and Ishgard's dragoons. Some clarification might be needed on top of what Shuck already said, though.

You mentioned something earlier about your character's father always wanting to be a dragoon or wanting his son to be a dragoon or some such idea. While dragoons are seen as pretty badass in Eorzea, I'm not sure if it's something outsiders would really aspire to be. I see this a lot, and it's not just you who has this idea of outsiders yearning to be dragoons.Â

Aside from what Shuck already pointed out regarding the difficulty of becoming a dragoon, I personally don't see why most people would want to.Â Being a dragoon means you serve Halone the Fury in a holy war against dragons for the defense of Ishgard. Unless you were already worshiping Halone in your spare time and had some weird connection to a place you weren't even allowed to enter, why would you want to do that? A dragoon isn't just a really good lancer who jumps around and goes on adventures, as game mechanics seem to imply. Being a dragoon goes hand-in-hand with Halone, Ishgard, and fighting dragons. Of course, you see some dragoons wandering around out in the world, but those are usually exiles who have actually fought in the holy war.Â

The idea that anyone who holds a spear or some type of polearm would live their life trying to be a dragoon is confusing to me, and I see it a lot. It's like saying "I'm a swordsman from Mongolia, but I really want to be a Templar Knight." While Templars were very well-trained and word got around about them killing people, it's unlikely that someone from a different culture would commit their lives to their holy war, country of origin, and religion just to get some sweet tricks. I hope that makes sense.

Not trying to ruin your day or anything. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents as someone who is also roleplaying a dragoon.

Pretty much this. This is why I remade my character. Trust me, my original character was, you guessed it, an outsider who wanted to be a Dragoon for the sole reason of "Dragoon is Lancer evolved". Then I got some critiques on that and wasn't happy with my character as a whole, so... I talked to a few people (Uther included) and made my character a lore friendly Dragoon. I wound up liking my character much more after the change too.

I'm not encouraging you to throw everything you have out the window. I don't think any of us are. I did it because I realized that my former character was the product of laziness and I hated it. Anyway.

doctorgalactic · **07-19-2013, 10:15 AM**

(07-19-2013, 05:55 AM)Uther Wrote: I'm sure this has been said before, but I only lightly skimmed this thread. It's clear to me that you know the difference between Ala Mhigo's lancers and Ishgard's dragoons. Some clarification might be needed on top of what Shuck already said, though.

You mentioned something earlier about your character's father always wanting to be a dragoon or wanting his son to be a dragoon or some such idea. While dragoons are seen as pretty badass in Eorzea, I'm not sure if it's something outsiders would really aspire to be. I see this a lot, and it's not just you who has this idea of outsiders yearning to be dragoons.Â

Aside from what Shuck already pointed out regarding the difficulty of becoming a dragoon, I personally don't see why most people would want to.Â Being a dragoon means you serve Halone the Fury in a holy war against dragons for the defense of Ishgard. Unless you were already worshiping Halone in your spare time and had some weird connection to a place you weren't even allowed to enter, why would you want to do that? A dragoon isn't just a really good lancer who jumps around and goes on adventures, as game mechanics seem to imply. Being a dragoon goes hand-in-hand with Halone, Ishgard, and fighting dragons. Of course, you see some dragoons wandering around out in the world, but those are usually exiles who have actually fought in the holy war.Â

The idea that anyone who holds a spear or some type of polearm would live their life trying to be a dragoon is confusing to me, and I see it a lot. It's like saying "I'm a swordsman from Mongolia, but I really want to be a Templar Knight." While Templars were very well-trained and word got around about them killing people, it's unlikely that someone from a different culture would commit their lives to their holy war, country of origin, and religion just to get some sweet tricks. I hope that makes sense.

Not trying to ruin your day or anything. I just thought I'd throw in my two cents as someone who is also roleplaying a dragoon.

I hate to say this, as I am absolutely loving this discussion, but isn't this lore-abiding view of Dragoons a bit... elitist? Â Trust me, I am fully aware of what an ironic statement that is. Â But we have to look at the gameplay mechanic as well as backstory to make any of this work. Â

To become a Dragoon, in game, you have to level your Lancer class. Â I don't think anyone will disagree with that. Â Uther, I read your backstory, and it's interesting as hell with one caveat: the only way that your story works (and by proxy, the Dragoon class) is if you were already a Dragoon before the events of the game. Â All things being equal once ARR rolls out, how do we explain the masses of folks that have the same intentions and aspirations that you do (to become a Dragoon) without the backstory of them already being one? Â I hate to point out the obvious, but excluding RP, Ishgard is not a starting city-state, and as far as mechanics go, if you want to fly into the Dragoon class swiftly, you're starting as a Lancer in Gridania. Â Now, you can RP that you're a Dragoon in the meantime, but for me personally, that doesn't allow for RPvE opportunities, which is something that appeals to me. Â It seems that taking a 'you don't know what it means to be a realÂ Dragoon' approach to anyone who works towards that Job without a lore-centric background could potentially make things difficult in the future. Â This is an honest question: How then, IC, would Uther explain the multitude of other players running around with the Dragoon class? Â OOC,as far as I know the jobisn't some random scripted in-game event that selects random PC's to be worthy of the title, it's something that has to be initiated by the PC. Â It is something to strive for. Â Of courseÂ people are going to strive for it, that's not confusing to me at all. Â I get the analogy of the Mongolian Swordsman wanting to be a Templar, and it's a good one, but that's not what this is. Â Which indeed brings me to my point.

Kayle isn't a Dragoon! Â His father wasn't a Dragoon, his step-father wasn't a Dragoon. Â (resolved in a previous post) Â It's a childhood aspiration. Â I couldÂ have just made him a Lancer, like his father before him, and worked my way up the ladder to becoming a Dragoon, as the gameplay mechanics demands. Â But instead I forced another role upon Kayle due to circumstance. Â Does that mean he still doesn't have aspirations? Â Of course not. Â To play off of your analogy, let's say some kid from the slums who's great a basketball has dreams of becoming an astronaut. Â That doesn't strike me as odd at all. Â Does it mean he'll become and astronaut? Â Not necessarily. Â Does it mean he can'tÂ become one? Â Absolutely not! Â I am aware that there are in game restrictions to the Dragoon, and to be honest, Kayle has no idea what they are. Â To him they are childhood stories, mythical figures that are rarely seen in public. Â And that intrigues the hell out of him.

Uther · **07-19-2013, 10:50 AM**

(07-19-2013, 10:15 AM)doctorgalactic Wrote: I hate to say this, as I am absolutely loving this discussion, but isn't this lore-abiding view of Dragoons a bit... elitist? Â Trust me, I am fully aware of what an ironic statement that is. Â But we have to look at the gameplay mechanic as well as backstory to make any of this work. Â

To become a Dragoon, in game, you have to level your Lancer class. Â I don't think anyone will disagree with that. Â Uther, I read your backstory, and it's interesting as hell with one caveat: the only way that your story works (and by proxy, the Dragoon class) is if you were already a Dragoon before the events of the game. Â All things being equal once ARR rolls out, how do we explain the masses of folks that have the same intentions and aspirations that you do (to become a Dragoon) without the backstory of them already being one? Â I hate to point out the obvious, but excluding RP, Ishgard is not a starting city-state, and as far as mechanics go, if you want to fly into the Dragoon class swiftly, you're starting as a Lancer in Gridania. Â Now, you can RP that you're a Dragoon in the meantime, but for me personally, that doesn't allow for RPvE opportunities, which is something that appeals to me. Â It seems that taking a 'you don't know what it means to be a realÂ Dragoon' approach to anyone who works towards that Job without a lore-centric background could potentially make things difficult in the future. Â This is an honest question: How then, IC, would Uther explain the multitude of other players running around with the Dragoon class? Â OOC,as far as I know the jobisn't some random scripted in-game event that selects random PC's to be worthy of the title, it's something that has to be initiated by the PC. Â It is something to strive for. Â Of courseÂ people are going to strive for it, that's not confusing to me at all. Â I get the analogy of the Mongolian Swordsman wanting to be a Templar, and it's a good one, but that's not what this is. Â Which indeed brings me to my point.

Kayle isn't a Dragoon! Â His father wasn't a Dragoon, his step-father wasn't a Dragoon. Â (resolved in a previous post) Â It's a childhood aspiration. Â I couldÂ have just made him a Lancer, like his father before him, and worked my way up the ladder to becoming a Dragoon, as the gameplay mechanics demands. Â But instead I forced another role upon Kayle due to circumstance. Â Does that mean he still doesn't have aspirations? Â Of course not. Â To play off of your analogy, let's say some kid from the slums who's great a basketball has dreams of becoming an astronaut. Â That doesn't strike me as odd at all. Â Does it mean he'll become and astronaut? Â Not necessarily. Â Does it mean he can'tÂ become one? Â Absolutely not! Â I am aware that there are in game restrictions to the Dragoon, and to be honest, Kayle has no idea what they are. Â To him they are childhood stories, mythical figures that are rarely seen in public. Â And that intrigues the hell out of him.

Well, you bring up some good points, and you're definitely not wrong. Your main point seems to be "How are all these non-Ishgard Dragoons walking around if they only come from Ishgard? And how are you going to react to it?"Â

My answer to how I plan on seeing it from an IC perspective is that they fight like dragoons and have most likely trained with dragoons, but by actual definition they are not dragoons. They're not among the ranks of Ishgard's holy knights, despite them fighting in the same style. To aspire to learnÂ from dragoons is a much more realistic approach than aspiring to beÂ a dragoon. To the layman, the term "dragoon" would be associated with the fighting style they're known for. For instance, the average Joe would call any extremely skilled lancer who knows how to do the dragoon abilities a dragoon, while in actuality it refers to the specific unit of Ishgardian holy lancers... If that makes sense.

To go into a little more depth, if Uther meets someone who is playing the dragoon class but is not a servant of Halone, from Ishgard, or tested by the Dragon's Eye, and they say "I'm a dragoon." He'll interpret that as "I've studied the fighting style of dragoons." and not literally "I'm a dragoon."Â

If I learn Shaolin Boxing, I can use that as a defining characteristic of myself as a fighter, but it doesn't make me a Shaolin Monk. It also doesn't make me any less of a fighter than actual Shaolin Monks if I've put the training into it. They just have a more all-encompassing view of their martial art.

That was kind of sloppy explanation, but I hope it made sense.

I have no problem with people not from Ishgard playing the dragoon class. I'm not going to run around yelling "DRAGOONS ARE ONLY FROM ISHGARD!" I will just interpret the character as someone learning from an exiled dragoon or some such.Â

But really, when it comes down to it, the only way to become a full-fledged official dragoon according to the lore of the game is to stand before the Dragon's Eye in Ishgard. You have to be a soldier in their holy war, and by that note you have to worship Halone. Anything else, and you're not really a dragoon. You may be called a dragoon because you have the same physical training, sure. But as far as a life philosophy and personal code goes, you're just not. To put in another real-world analogy, I can practice kendo for years and years and be better than everyone else in the world. It doesn't make me a samurai.

At the risk of rambling some more, I'll just say there's a difference between the dragoon class and the lore dragoons. That being said, I'm not going to attack anyone for saying they were born in Limsa and they're a dragoon now. It's just one of those words that has sort of two definitions. It's all about context.

Desmond Aryll · **07-19-2013, 11:07 AM**

We'll just have to wait and see how it is handled in-game. After all, I'm certain that anyone playing a Lancer with the intention of picking up the Dragoon job will not have to wait for Ishgard to open its gates to do it.
And chances are, the game will provide a lore-friendly reason why that is.

Uther · **07-19-2013, 11:21 AM**

(07-19-2013, 11:07 AM)Desmond Aryll Wrote: And chances are, the game will provide a lore-friendly reason why that is.

Maybe.

I'm not holding my breath.

doctorgalactic · **07-19-2013, 11:26 AM**

(07-19-2013, 11:07 AM)Desmond Aryll Wrote: We'll just have to wait and see how it is handled in-game. After all, I'm certain that anyone playing a Lancer with the intention of picking up the Dragoon job will not have to wait for Ishgard to open its gates to do it.
And chances are, the game will provide a lore-friendly reason why that is.

I completely agree, and definitely look forward to seeing how SE handles all of it. Â My intentions for Kayle are to have him try to make a living and name for himself working in Ul'Dah, but his gaze is drawn north, both to his birthplace and the Tower of Ishgard. Â He'll be a Gladiator, and probably a Paladin out of duty. Â To himself, to his ideals, and for the ones he cares about. Â But for him, eventually it means eventually taking the road north.

Uther · **07-19-2013, 11:27 AM**

(07-19-2013, 11:26 AM)doctorgalactic Wrote: My intentions for Kayle are to have him try to make a living and name for himself working in Ul'Dah, but his gaze is drawn north, both to his birthplace and the Tower of Ishgard. Â He'll be a Gladiator, and probably a Paladin out of duty. Â To himself, to his ideals, and for the ones he cares about. Â But for him, eventually it means eventually taking the road north.

Sounds like a fun ride. Can't wait to see how the character turns out.

doctorgalactic · **07-19-2013, 11:36 AM**

(07-19-2013, 11:21 AM)Uther Wrote:
(07-19-2013, 11:07 AM)Desmond Aryll Wrote: And chances are, the game will provide a lore-friendly reason why that is.

Maybe.

I'm not holding my breath.

I think we're getting off base here a bit. Â Kayle's intrigue into the Dragoons, and potential inspiration to become one are his own. Â Your understanding of the lore essentially only allows Uther (or anyone else who exiles or otherwise excommunicates themselves from pre-game Ishgard) to be the "true" Dragoons. Â The fact of the matter is, the majority of people who will be playing that particular job will not have a back story identical to yours. Or, they will bandwagon and a lot of of them will, which depreciates the unique qualities of your character that you very clearly worked hard to develop.

I've given my character an aspiration beyond what his current situation enables him to do. Â Mincing words about what it means to be a real Dragoon is something that in my opinion should be saved for RP purposes, not game defining stances.

Shuck · **07-20-2013, 05:00 AM**

(07-19-2013, 11:36 AM)doctorgalactic Wrote: I've given my character an aspiration beyond what his current situation enables him to do. Â Mincing words about what it means to be a real Dragoon is something that in my opinion should be saved for RP purposes, not game defining stances.

I'm not entirely clear what you mean by this. We're discussing character backgrounds, which are strictly for RP purposes.

Also, it doesn't really fall into "mincing" words. There's a lore background, and definition for what is, and isn't a Dragoon. Nobody's trying to hamper your imagination here, but again, MMO's in particular tend to allow players to do things that don't necessarily make sense in the overall scheme of the game's story.

For example: Every time a character goes into a dungeon, the critters within will behave exactly the same, every time. The bosses will have the same monologue, if they offer one, every time. If it's a dungeon with a story? That story will be the same every time. There isn't an assembly line out there with endless Big Bad whatevers. It's a concession of sense made for the sake of play.

The multiple players running around as Dragoons are the same sort of thing. A concession made for the sake of play. People want to play these classes. That's cool. The storyline of the game itself says that pretty much nobody makes it into that super-special secret club. That'd be dandy as well, if it weren't for the sheer volume of people present in the world, all wanting to play that class, most of whom will never roleplay, or even invent a backstory for their character.

So, rather than change the story (And honestly, from what I've seen in Beta, there's no shortage of "You are the Chosen One!"), they just wrap it all up in it's own little pocket (instances and solo-quests), and tell every player the same bit.

When we then take that into an arena where multiple people are contributing to a combined narrative (roleplayers in a roleplaying community), we're going to have to accept that our characters are not necessarily going to be everything the writers of the main-quests make them out to be. Honestly, the mechanics of the game don't support the "Chosen One" business, but that's another kettle all together.

Back on point: With that in mind, it's important to respect the boundaries set by the world, and it's history. Your character should make sense in the context of the world that they exist. Liberties can be taken here and there, but there are a few lines you just don't really want to cross. The Job system is wonderful for gameplay. The lore surrounding the jobs themselves makes a lot of this background business a mess (they're all basically super exclusive little sub-societies).

Do I wish they didn't do it that way? Yyyyeah, I kind of do. I mean, it gives the Jobs a sense of identity in the world, but it also excludes the players (by and large) from ever truly being a member of their lofty ranks.

I suppose in the end, you're right in saying that the lore interpretation of Dragoons in this particular case is elitist. It is. Unashamedly so. Because they are elites. But, we didn't make it that way. We're just kind of rolling with what we're being dealt.

Gideon Aryeh · **07-20-2013, 05:23 AM**

Not to take anything away from what has been said but I just want to put this out there. If there were any time to find Dragoons outside of Ishguard and maybe (again maybe) even training people it would be after the god of all dragons attacked wouldn't it?
Â
I know one of you guys stated why would someone pick up someone else's cause?
Â
Well because Bahamut just turned your homeland into barbecue, I mean that would seem like a good reason to want to be a Dragoon to me no matter where you are from.
Â
I hope SE adds that storybit into the Dragoons now. I mean I'd figure Ishguard would have had those wanting to be Dragoons arriving in droves after the Calamity. Now of course them getting in is another thing of course due to the city being closed off.

Uther · **07-20-2013, 05:47 AM**

(07-20-2013, 05:23 AM)Rock Sandbourne Wrote: Not to take anything away from what has been said but I just want to put this out there. If there were any time to find Dragoons outside of Ishguard and maybe (again maybe) even training people it would be after the god of all dragons attacked wouldn't it?
Â
I know one of you guys stated why would someone pick up someone else's cause?
Â
Well because Bahamut just turned your homeland into barbecue, I mean that would seem like a good reason to want to be a Dragoon to me no matter where you are from.
Â
I hope SE adds that storybit into the Dragoons now. I mean I'd figure Ishguard would have had those wanting to be Dragoons arriving in droves after the Calamity. Now of course them getting in is another thing of course due to the city being closed off.

This is a really good point, and I can imagine a lot of people wouldÂ try to go the dragoon route after Bahamut's attack, as a means of hopeful retaliation or cautious defensive skills in case of a future attack. However, Ishgard Dragoons aren't just guys who kill dragons out in the world because they don't like them. To them, it's religious. It's a holy war, and it's no one's business but theirs. They've been in isolation for a very long timeÂ and from what we can gather about ARR, they've also been in eternal winter since the calamity, so I doubt they have the time or the will to train outsiders when they're probably thinking this is the climax of their holy war. Of course, this is all speculation.

I just think the best way to be a dragoon out in the world, while being from somewhere other than Ishgard, is to learn the skills from a retired dragoon or an exile or something. It sounds elitist to say "You can't be a dragoon unless you're from Ishgard or know someone from Ishgard." but really, those are the only two lore explanations the game has provided. I'm not trying to hog the class to myself or anything. If everyone in the game was a dragoon, I'd be okay with that (overseeing the logical issues of having no healers or tanks). This is just going off the lore provided.

After the Fall of Dalamud, I imagine a lot of people would learn some dragoon fighting techniques, especially if they were lancers already, from some exiled or retired dragoon, or some student of a student of a dragoon. That doesn't makeÂ them dragoons, even if they're just as skilled. I'll go more in-depth with an analogy I had earlier that I think works here. Say I'm a regular guy, and a mugger attacks and robs me. I might decide "Never again", and learn Shaolin Boxing as a means to protect myself. This doesn't make me a Shaolin Monk, despite learning the fighting style they're known for. I don't meditate with them, I don't follow their religious beliefs, I don't live at a temple. I'm just a guy who knows how to fight like them. Dragoon, to the people of Ishgard, is a lifestyle, not just a martial art. This is the big break between lore and gameplay.

If SE doesÂ release a bit of lore saying "Ishgard has sent out dragoon instructors to certify strong enough lancers in case of another Bahamut attack." or "Ishgard has opened its gates to allow hopefuls to stand in front of the Dragon's Eye and become official dragoons." or something of that nature, I'm not going to argue it. I'm just following what they've told me, and if they tell me something else, I'll follow that too. They make the lore, not me.

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