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Verence · **02-14-2012, 07:15 PM**

I smell a flamewar brewing, so to step in before things get touched off... Calling for respect and decency is entirely appropriate. Doing so immediately after sarcastic passive-aggression is not. Give and ye shall receive. This goes for everyone. Now play nice! Bomb

Eva · **02-14-2012, 07:19 PM**

I was reluctant to chime in again so soon, but having read over many of the responses of this thread, there's one point which keeps resonating true. We all have different preferences, different styles, and different things that we hope to get out of our various RP experiences. I think we can also safely say that there is way more than just one spectrum on which we can kind of measure where we fall within the greater community.

IC vs. OOC
So far this has been used as a kind of baseline metric by the RPC to slap a label on linkshells with regards to whether they are casual, moderate, or heavy. Each RPer may have preferences with regard to this. Myself, I could do without OOC in most instances, but I have friends who feel they need some, or that a given linkshell is too quiet when things aren't happen and it's preferable to have some OOC dialogue than "dead air." This view is going to vary from one RPer to the next.

Adherance to Lore
This also seems to be a point of differing opinions. From what I have read in this thread and others across a number of RP linkshells I've belonged to in FFXIV it's clear that there are some people who are very uncomfortable with a certain amount of deviation from what has been established as canon by Square-Enix for this game. As the lore is still being written, it's hard to draw a very clear line in the sand. For instance I've known some people to be comfortable making some assumptions with regard to lore related to Sharilyn, Ishgard, or Garlemald - areas where there is still a lot of gray area - but then find things such as vampirism and lycanthropy are frowned upon (even though lycanthropy has been shown to exist in some form in Eorzea).

Style/Purpose/Story
Different linkshells are also going to attract members based upon their purpose. Adventuring guilds, mercenary guilds, educational facilities, business conglomerates, trade organizations, groups of friends with no formal organizational structure - really the sky is the limit here with regard to what the linkshell's creator(s) decide upon doing. While I'm sure an argument can be made that anyone can fit into any given linkshell's structure, certain types of guilds are generally going to appeal to certain types of roleplayers more than others.

Event Types ('casual' vs. 'monumental')
This is kind of a new one based upon the last few posts in this thread, but it seems like this is another good point of preference and worth adding as an example. I also use the expression 'monumental' events to describe their greater impact on the characters involved and 'casual' events to describe events where it may seem little character development takes place. I know some may grow weary of the simple get-togethers for tea and roasting marshmelons around the campfire. I agree that the real character development seems to happen within the individual linkshells - or at least this has always been my own experience. I suspect this happens because of the variations from linkshell to linkshell about what's appropriate and what's not (such as godmode, lore-adherance, etc.). I can also see the point about how too many monumental, character-defining moments can result in either being perceived as somewhat outlandish or otherwise the PTSD and frayed nerves and all that other fun stuff kicks in, as has already been mentioned. Personally, I like the frilly light RP and sitting around and chit-chatting and such, but I also like some "meat and potatoes" once in awhile. I can think of about three such incidents (curiously with three separate RPLS's) that have happened in my year-and-a-half of doing this. Some might yearn for more than that. Others may feel that's too much. Not everyone is going to agree on this, just as the points above.

As role-players, we are as unique with our preferences as our characters are. I don't expect that any of us will fall exactly in the same place on each of these points. Even people whom I consider like-minded RPers have disagreed with my views, and I with theirs, on certain matters. What's important here - and I think the bottom line to this entire topic - is tolerance. I don't see much intolerance towards anyone for their styles and preferences, and the fact that we can all calmly talk about these variations in an open forum such as this is certainly a very positive thing.

I do think a lot of the frustration stems from the fact that there are so many linkshell communities which may not necessarily comprise many members, and of course there is a lot of overlap since we can belong to multiple RPLS's and kind of pearl-hop depending on where the activity is on any given night.

This all being said, I don't think the personal variance is a bad thing. This has been more of an observation than anything else really. I don't necessarily view the current state of the RP community as a problem. But for those that do, I think the question we need to ask ourselves is "What we can do to improve things for ourselves, collectively?" Simply understanding and declaring that more people should be more respectful and more tolerant of different styles than their own isn't really accomplishing anything.

I don't have an answer to this question, but I put it out there as food for thought.

Smiling River · **02-14-2012, 07:25 PM**

Uh, I said nothing else because I agree with Mnim, daily RP is something I crave as well because I feel like it's been segmented by 'events' a bit too much recently. I just dislike when people post on behalf of some group, same as I dislike passive voice, "there have been mistakes made," for example. Don't get hung up on it and make it out to be some attack, and yeah, what Verence said.

Merri · **02-14-2012, 07:31 PM**

I think Eva nailed it down pretty well. I mean, we could sit here and discuss our different levels of what can be acceptable, but that won't really do anything in-game.

Some people have higher standards and adhere to the lore heavily. Others might be a bit looser. Some might be even looser still. People won't change what they feel comfortable with, it's just how they are. I don't even really see my optimistic ideals as plausible. They're nice to say and think about, but to actually make them a reality isn't so easy for most people.

I haven't really seen any issues in-game, to be honest. Maybe people gossip a lot behind closed doors, but I've never seen anyone storm off from RP after getting upset OOCly about some character. I haven't seen anyone call some one out OOCly about their character. I've just seen people roleplaying. Plenty of random roleplay goes on. Plenty of shell roleplay goes on.

If some one has a higher standards, or really loose standards, it's going to dampen the amount of roleplay they have access to. That's just the way it is, there's not really any direct fix for that other than working at it. They just need to get by, one day at a time. Take things with a grain of salt if you're up to it.

It doesn't help that our community is small at the moment. It really is. As things grow, more and more people of varying styles will show up. Not everyone will always get along perfectly, but that's to be expected. As the game grows in popularity, you can be certain our community will grow, and more RP will become available. Until that happens though we all need to just get along like adults, even if we don't enjoy roleplaying with specific people or characters.

Forra · **02-14-2012, 07:40 PM**

Alright, sorry for jumping down your throat there Oskar.

That said, when the reply responds solely, negatively to one element of a post without addressing its content - even if the poster does, in fact, feel positively about that content - it ought not be surprising when someone assumes the poster is being negative toward the post in general based on their seemingly wholly negative response; especially when the negativity is to something so innocuous as wanting to deliver the results of a discussion between friends in a single post.

Whatever happens though, what very little I can contribute right now's been voiced I suppose and it looks like others have far more to lend the discussion than I do. So for now.. back to just reading.

Smiling River · **02-14-2012, 07:47 PM**

Quote:Maybe people gossip a lot behind closed doors,

This. A lot. Sometimes I hear back from what's been said either about me or my character, and I reel in disbelief, laughing. Not only is it false, it seems as if it's just made up completely and spread around! Part of me is a bit amazed at that.

That brings me to another point, which is being honest and up-front with people should not be considered rude. If people felt comfortable telling someone directly how they felt, or some info they heard about them that was questionable, a lot of the backroom gossip wouldn't just marinate and escalate. Why does this happen? Well, to be honest, I think some people are just two-faces snakes in the grass! But aside from those people who feel compelled to do it, there are some who simply think it's rude to be honest with someone, or to confront them on something.

I certainty have been made to feel bad about simply being honest and up-front with people. Latest example was that convo about Merri's arm. When I gave my opinion, I was pretty much called out for being a jerk (I don't remember exactly what was said) just because based on what I heard, I wasn't going along with it. And before people jump to conclusions, I think Merri can back me up here, I wasn't trying to tell anyone what to do or how to play, simply stating my opinion on the matter openly, to him directly, because it was being discussed.

The lack of honesty between people corrupts any bonds of friendship and trust, adding often false rumors instead. That kind of behavior in the community erodes links between players, and thus diminishes our ability to play with each other.

Miyu Asuka · **02-14-2012, 08:09 PM**

If I noticed one thing from this particular community is that you can better keep your opinion to yourself. If not, they will shun you for it as it doesn't agree with their opinions. in any case, too much honesty can be deadly, choose your words wisely as they are severely powerfull tools.
A very simple example, if I'd be honest about some person on this board, and say I, in my opinion, should just stop posting nonsense, it would cause the most basic effect of it: Defense. That defense will morph into offense and bounce off the first offender, me, and I got back into the defence again. This goes on and on, as too much honesty destroys things with the greatest ease. Sometimes it's just better to shut up, especially in a volatile community such as this one. If not, calculate the effect of what you say before you say it.

Quote:Well, to be honest, I think some people are just two-faces snakes in the grass!

This kind of honesty can offend people, not saying it will, but there is a very high chance, especially from someone who already doesn't like you.

Too much honesty between people corrupts any bonds of friendship and trust, adding hostility and agressiveness. That kind of behavior in the community erodes links between players, and thus diminishes our ability to play with each other.

Merri · **02-14-2012, 08:18 PM**

Quote:I certainty have been made to feel bad about simply being honest and up-front with people.

Mhm! I totally understood where you were coming from. You have your own opinions, and I completely respect that. Everyone has their own opinions, and we should all respect them, even if we don't directly agree with them. Sure, occasionally it might deter some one from wanting to roleplay with a person, but they shouldn't slander them because of it. They shouldn't turn to their friends and go "Eww, no, don't roleplay with him, he has blah blah blah".

"If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it at all." tends to usually be my way of thinking. But everyone says things, or makes mistakes. It happens.

It can't hurt to try and keep it to yourself. Even to try and work with the person in question, see if there can't be a way to lessen tensions if you tend to run into each other a lot IC. If you don't, then there isn't really any issue to begin with is there? Nothing to drive the feelings or gossip. Just leave the person alone to do what they do if they don't directly bother you.

Aysun · **02-14-2012, 10:08 PM**

I just had to comment on the lore: lycanthropy part, since when I first came into the community I typed up "However, I do not want to run into a vampire/were-anything/half-demon-half-godknowswhat unless the lore supports it." on my wiki. That's my desperate attempt to stay away from a certain kind of painful Twilight-esque RP that I had been exposed to and haaated. Tongue

To me, all that's been posted says one thing: We all have differences, despite being united as a community of RPers. There will always be some segregation in deep, heavy RP. But when we are at these casual events, we should make an effort to give others chances and to see if maybe they have a style that would mesh with our own. And if we'd given them a chance before and didn't like it? Give them another. Characters develop, styles change with learning and practice.. Unless you have an IC reason to completely ignore someone, always give them a shot. Smile

Smiling River · **02-14-2012, 10:40 PM**

Quote:A very simple example, if I'd be honest about some person on this board, and say I, in my opinion, should just stop posting nonsense, it would cause the most basic effect of it: Defense. That defense will morph into offense and bounce off the first offender, me, and I got back into the defence again. This goes on and on, as too much honesty destroys things with the greatest ease. Sometimes it's just better to shut up, especially in a volatile community such as this one. If not, calculate the effect of what you say before you say it.

Yes, if you are honest but tactless in delivering your opinion, you may get a defensive reaction. 1) Clearly the 'being honest' here isn't the problem, it's how you communicate it, and 2) there is a concern for the other person's feelings - by this I mean that you've assumed that they would get defensive, and that if they do, it would be your fault, or specifically the fault of you being honest. If whoever you are speaking to reacts poorly to you being upfront with them, I do not think it's your fault, provided that you tried to say it without insulting them, but rather it's their inability to deal with unfavorable feedback. This is not a case against being open with people, but more like the worst case scenario used to justify a clear wrong, that being disingenuous is bad.

Quote:This kind of honesty can offend people, not saying it will, but there is a very high chance, especially from someone who already doesn't like you.

I am not sure who it would offend, other than two-faced snakes in the grass lol. And if someone recognizes themselves as one of those people, go ahead, get offended. I hate those type of people. You know, being friendly with you, saying they totally dig your storyline, and then turn around and talk smack about you behind your back. I really don't give a damn how they feel.

Note also that I am not saying they to mask the identity of individuals, although I know a few who have displayed this behavior, I am simply stating that there is a portion of the 'population' who are like that, as opposed to others who I feel may do the same things, but not because they get a thrill out of it, but because they think being honest with someone is rude/negative.

Quote:Too much honesty between people corrupts any bonds of friendship and trust, adding hostility and agressiveness. That kind of behavior in the community erodes links between players, and thus diminishes our ability to play with each other.

Again, I think you're using the worst-case scenario, when someone is honest but clearly has trouble communicating and keeping the conversation civil. This isn't because honesty in itself is a bad thing. There is no too much or too little honesty. It's either, you're up front with someone, or you're not.

Quote:It can't hurt to try and keep it to yourself.

While I agree that in the ideal world, this might be the case, usually people don't keep things to themselves. That's how completely off-base rumors spread. You have a group of people who chose not to bring in the person they are talking about so that they can defend themselves, and talk about them to others, who may not even have interacted with said person, then they get some ideas with regards to someone they've never even met. Personally I get a lot this, random comments/critiques about my character from someone I often don't know/never RPed with. And their ideas of Oskar are so far off base that it's like... hmm I wonder who told them this, and why someone in this long line of the rumor mill just not sent me a PM, so that I can speak for myself. Some people would rather talk s*** behind someones back and never bother to check up on their assumptions. /shrug And when someone breaks out of the mold and actually RPs with me, I often get, "Wow... this isn't what I expected, I thought you/Oskar was a complete <whatever negative word>" lol

That to me is pretty much an illness of this community. To ignore it is to foster it. I am not saying that this is a sole reason why there are rifts between people, but it IS a reason that wasn't brought up in a public discussion.

Eva · **02-14-2012, 11:28 PM**

Quote:And when someone breaks out of the mold and actually RPs with me, I often get, "Wow... this isn't what I expected, I thought you/Oskar was a complete <whatever negative word>" lol

To be fair, Oskar can be a real turd sometimes. As an RPer though, for whatever it may be worth, I have never had anything short of fun when our characters have interacted - even if he was being kind of a douche ICly. Without getting into any sort of longwinded character analysis and derailing the purpose of this thread, I just wanted to throw that out there.

@Aysun - I think we're on the same page, personally. I don't know too many RPers here that are into that half-demon, half-princess, half-platypus, half-antling style of yuckiness. I just wanted to throw a legitimate example of something where there are differing opinions. Certain in-game storylines hint at things which some might argue are outlandish and don't want to RP with - I'm looking at you THM storyline. I'm not saying any of it is right, and I'm not saying any of it is wrong. Different people are always going to look at the same lore items and interpret it differently. I wasn't targeting anything you said. (and Eva's not half-wolf, don't worry lol)

Galvadan · **02-15-2012, 08:27 PM**

The long and short of it to me is that SE is keeping the lore in a constant state of flux recently, so what was passibly acceptable one day, might be completely ommited the next. let's be fair to to whatever roleplay style and/or story a person makes up for their character, give them a chance to flesh it out. some people just go over the top because they (like many of us in a way...i think all rp'ers are guilty of it imo.) want to make a character that stands out in a crowd. Is that a good thing, sure it is, in a sense, as long as it's something that won't like suck the air out of a room when we see that person coming. i've started to fix and revamp my own wiki for just that instance, in an attempt to at least be more in -line with lore, and to also be more approachable. hopefully at least for my part it helps.

Ariel · **02-17-2012, 09:48 AM**

If it's ok I'll give my take on all this, because it happens every once in a while it seems.
Just talk it openly with the person that you think was rude or over the top, or whatever, we are all in for the RP, otherwise we wouldn't even bother right?

Just some things to keep in mind.
Nobody is absolutely right. Ever. Because it's all perspective, just like the colors we see are mere translations from our brains of things we can't even know for sure are there.

Everyone messes up. And you know it, me, you, everyone eventually messes up. Just like this extremely coordinated and not at all subordinated sentences.

Unless someone get's in the way of you doing your thing theres really nothing wrong with it. Other people are not responsible for the mood you want in your story.

It's very unlikely that anyone that wants to RP will go in a self-centered craze and dismiss an attempt to work out the rp to it's best if you talk it out politely (not extra-nice, just politely).

That is all my opinion.

And as a closing note, the only thing I think might be wrong with it is shunning people at all, unless they are being throughly disrespectful, like as said above as in trash-talking, etc. And even then, odds are it can be worked out. It's all an exercise of maturity.

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